Historic High for WAGE earners

[ReillyT]

That is the main difference between rich and poor believe it or not. Those that got rich didn't care what obstacles were in the way. They don't sit and wait for people to present opportunities to them. They set a goal and come hell or high water they figure out a way to get there. All the policies you tout and all these new opportunities you say we need to present, none of the people with the actual drive give a rats ass about them. They have a fundamental understanding that it isn't anyone elses job to make them rich.

I think that is most assuredly false. I, by income bracket, qualify as the rich (though not super rich). Many of the friends that I have made in the last 5-10 years would also qualify (or come close to qualifying) as relatively wealthy. I got a good education, had a supportive family, and frankly, was lucky. I also worked hard, but that wouldn't have likely mattered but for the education, family and luck. Every friend that I have who is sitting in that top income bracket also had a reasonably good upbringing. A significant portion (majority) went to private secondary schools and universities. Not a single one grew up in a ghetto or inner city, or went to run-down and dangerous high school.

Just from my experience, I would say that those who succeed owe their success in large part to their background and a little bit of luck. If you really think that the main difference between those who succeed and those who fail is drive and willpower, you are living in a dream world.

 

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by Bern80 View Post
That is the main difference between rich and poor believe it or not. Those that got rich didn't care what obstacles were in the way. They don't sit and wait for people to present opportunities to them. They set a goal and come hell or high water they figure out a way to get there. All the policies you tout and all these new opportunities you say we need to present, none of the people with the actual drive give a rats ass about them. They have a fundamental understanding that it isn't anyone elses job to make them rich.

Oh.. like George Bush? Regardless of the mans politics are you telling me that he is NOT the typical example of silver spooned upper crust enjoying a range of opportunity that mid and lower classes just don't see?

 

[Bern80]

Originally Posted by Bern80 View Post
That is the main difference between rich and poor believe it or not. Those that got rich didn't care what obstacles were in the way. They don't sit and wait for people to present opportunities to them. They set a goal and come hell or high water they figure out a way to get there. All the policies you tout and all these new opportunities you say we need to present, none of the people with the actual drive give a rats ass about them. They have a fundamental understanding that it isn't anyone elses job to make them rich.

Oh.. like George Bush? Regardless of the mans politics are you telling me that he is NOT the typical example of silver spooned upper crust enjoying a range of opportunity that mid and lower classes just don't see?

You are STILL not listening. Identifying those that got rich from inheritence is not difficult. I am saying that Bush is one of those exceptions. You can lump him in with the Hilton and Trumps. I don't care. The point is, those that came into money that way are teh exception, not the rule.

 

[Bern80]

I think that is most assuredly false. I, by income bracket, qualify as the rich (though not super rich). Many of the friends that I have made in the last 5-10 years would also qualify (or come close to qualifying) as relatively wealthy. I got a good education, had a supportive family, and frankly, was lucky. I also worked hard, but that wouldn't have likely mattered but for the education, family and luck. Every friend that I have who is sitting in that top income bracket also had a reasonably good upbringing. A significant portion (majority) went to private secondary schools and universities. Not a single one grew up in a ghetto or inner city, or went to run-down and dangerous high school.

Just from my experience, I would say that those who succeed owe their success in large part to their background and a little bit of luck. If you really think that the main difference between those who succeed and those who fail is drive and willpower, you are living in a dream world.

You are most assuradly wrong then, I'm afraid.

You're also making a point that I'm not even arguing. I get that people don't start on an even playing field. But the fact remains despite your contention getting rich doesn't just happen to people. By your analysis I should be rich by doing nothing more than sitting on my ass. I meet all your qualifiers. I wasn't raised in a ghetto and my parents were good parents. So where's my money dammit?

I am not wrong about drive and will power. Why? because for you to be right it would have to be be true that no matter the effort put forth there is simply no way the vast majority of people could become rich. I ask again. What it is preventing you (assuming you are not some amazingly unique individual, which you're probably not) from becomeing rich. What external factors are in play that you simply can not overcome?

Circumstance do not make up a person's character. Circumstances reveal their character.

 

[ReillyT]

You are most assuradly wrong then, I'm afraid.

You're also making a point that I'm not even arguing. I get that people don't start on an even playing field. But the fact remains despite your contention getting rich doesn't just happen to people. By your analysis I should be rich by doing nothing more than sitting on my ass. I meet all your qualifiers. I wasn't raised in a ghetto and my parents were good parents. So where's my money dammit?

I am not wrong about drive and will power. Why? because for you to be right it would have to be be true that no matter the effort put forth there is simply no way the vast majority of people could become rich. I ask again. What it is preventing you (assuming you are not some amazingly unique individual, which you're probably not) from becomeing rich. What external factors are in play that you simply can not overcome?

If all you are saying is that willpower or desire has a role in the success of many people, I have no disagreement with you. In fact, that statement is uncontestable to the point of being banal. Yes, it is a factor. However, two persons with equal amounts of willpower, each of which starts at opposite ends of the socio-economic spectrum, will usually not achieve equal outcomes. Desire or willpower is just one factor - one that I think is less important than the sum of socio-economic factors.

Also, why are you talking about becoming rich? Let's use the poverty line or some measure derived therefrom as the standard. Rich is a relative proposition, so even if everyone were equal backgrounds and had equal willpower, it is still true that only 1% will become rich (if we are using 1% as the benchmark). It is purely definitional.

 

[Helios]

If all you are saying is that willpower or desire has a role in the success of many people, I have no disagreement with you. In fact, that statement is uncontestable to the point of being banal. Yes, it is a factor. However, two persons with equal amounts of willpower, each of which starts at opposite ends of the socio-economic spectrum, will usually not achieve equal outcomes. Desire or willpower is just one factor - one that I think is less important than the sum of socio-economic factors.

Also, why are you talking about becoming rich? Let's use the poverty line or some measure derived therefrom as the standard. Rich is a relative proposition, so even if everyone were equal backgrounds and had equal willpower, it is still true that only 1% will become rich (if we are using 1% as the benchmark). It is purely definitional.

I think the most important thing hasn't been mentioned. I absolutely acknowledge all of the factors everyone has mentioned; As to the reason behind a someone making it "big," I think it's largely genetic and behavioral. All political and socio-economic obstacles aside, if someone is born and raised with no intelligence or passion in life (partly genetic, partly upbringing), then that person will not be apt to succeed. Whereas the intelligent child born to supportive parents, will succeed in life whether he's from the ghetto or uptown New York. I will admit that the increasing outsourcing, companies going offshore, and increasing inflation are also contributing to the low availability of opportunities and jobs for the middle/lower class right now.

 

[Bern80]

If all you are saying is that willpower or desire has a role in the success of many people, I have no disagreement with you. In fact, that statement is uncontestable to the point of being banal. Yes, it is a factor. However, two persons with equal amounts of willpower, each of which starts at opposite ends of the socio-economic spectrum, will usually not achieve equal outcomes. Desire or willpower is just one factor - one that I think is less important than the sum of socio-economic factors.

And again we come back to a fundamental difference between the left and the right. I'm sorry, but you your simply inccorrect. If socio-economic background was more determinant of ability to attain wealth than will power then there shoudl be far fewer rich people. And definately far fewer rich minoriities. Think about what that position implies. For your position to be true it would also have to be true there are certain obstacles that no amount of will power can overcome. That no matter your drive, or focus on a goal it is best to just throw in the towel because it simply is not possible. As that really the position you want to maintain? I understand why the left thinks that way. At the same time you shoud also consider how insulting your position would be to some people.

"hi my names Reily. What's your dream? What? Oh I'm so sorry. You should just give up you know. I'm afraid despite everything you have or will try, your socioeconomic background means that dream is impossible."

Sound harsh? Too bad. That is the reality of your position.

Also, why are you talking about becoming rich? Let's use the poverty line or some measure derived therefrom as the standard. Rich is a relative proposition, so even if everyone were equal backgrounds and had equal willpower, it is still true that only 1% will become rich (if we are using 1% as the benchmark). It is purely definitional.

I'm talking about the rich because you are bent on pointing out how difficult it is to become so. Millionaire is often defined as haveing a million dollars worth of assets. that is a simple enough benchmark.

 

[Bern80]

I think the most important thing hasn't been mentioned. I absolutely acknowledge all of the factors everyone has mentioned; As to the reason behind a someone making it "big," I think it's largely genetic and behavioral. All political and socio-economic obstacles aside, if someone is born and raised with no intelligence or passion in life (partly genetic, partly upbringing), then that person will not be apt to succeed. Whereas the intelligent child born to supportive parents, will succeed in life whether he's from the ghetto or uptown New York. I will admit that the increasing outsourcing, companies going offshore, and increasing inflation are also contributing to the low availability of opportunities and jobs for the middle/lower class right now.

Personally i think you're looking at opportunites the wrong way. The implication that you and others in this thread are making is that gosh if they only had more opportunities more people would be rich.

There just seems to be a fundamental disconnect in the way some think about this. I could offer you a six figure job right now. there's an opportunity. Me offering you said job is not going to inherently make you wealthy. Whether you can keep the job rests in your hands.

You speak of this poor group of people who would be rich if we only gave them more opportunities. That simply isn't so. If you're waiting around for someone to help you, that's a pretty good indicator you don't have what it takes to be successful no matter what opportunity is presented. People who are rich and successful don't wait for things to happen to them. They make things happen.

 

[Helios]

Personally i think you're looking at opportunites the wrong way. The implication that you and others in this thread are making is that gosh if they only had more opportunities more people would be rich.

There just seems to be a fundamental disconnect in the way some think about this. I could offer you a six figure job right now. there's an opportunity. Me offering you said job is not going to inherently make you wealthy. Whether you can keep the job rests in your hands.

You speak of this poor group of people who would be rich if we only gave them more opportunities. That simply isn't so. If you're waiting around for someone to help you, that's a pretty good indicator you don't have what it takes to be successful no matter what opportunity is presented. People who are rich and successful don't wait for things to happen to them. They make things happen.

Do you believe all humans were created with equal value? Or do you believe that those who can propel themselves above the rest through deceit and inhumanity are more admirable than John Doe, struggling to keep his shitty WalMart job and support his kids at home?

You are essentially agreeing with my position when you say:

Me offering you said job is not going to inherently make you wealthy. Whether you can keep the job rests in your hands.

That means some people have an inherent ability to succeed, and some don't. The people that have what it takes, mentally and creatively to do well are not worth more than the people bagging your groceries.

But OF COURSE if we had more opportunity for the lower/middle class, MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE RICH. That's common sense, c'mon you cant be that far gone. Maybe you have a fundamental disconnect.

 

[ReillyT]

If socio-economic background was more determinant of ability to attain wealth than will power then there shoudl be far fewer rich people. And definately far fewer rich minoriities.

Why? That is not logically true. It just means that the higher proportion of wealthy people will come from higher economic classes than from lower economic classes. That is, by the way, a fact of economic mobility.

Think about what that position implies. For your position to be true it would also have to be true there are certain obstacles that no amount of will power can overcome. That no matter your drive, or focus on a goal it is best to just throw in the towel because it simply is not possible. As that really the position you want to maintain? I understand why the left thinks that way. At the same time you shoud also consider how insulting your position would be to some people.

That isn't the implication either. The implication is that two people at different ends of the economic specturm with equal drives will face different obstacles to becoming economically successful. Of course, any individual person, if they are extremely resourceful and extremely lucky, can escape the poverty trap. However, generally, the lower you start on the economic scale, the more and more difficult it will be to achieve economic security (and some obviously, do not make it). Think about it in terms of famine. If someone has no money and no physical endowments (something to sell) in a famine situation, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will starve. However, it increases the likelihood that they will starve.

What are the implications of your position? If you are right that the main difference between those who succeed and those who fail is willpower, then those who start in the lowest quintile of the economic scale should reach the upper quintiles as often as those who start in the top quintiles stay there (or as often as those in the middle quintiles get there). If this isn't the case, then you would need to demonstrate why those in the bottom of the economic scale stay there. If it isn't socio-economic, then it must be genetic??? Are you comfortable stating that those at the bottom are there because they are genetically programmed to fail (and since minorities are disproportionately poorer generally, are you saying that minorities have genetically less drive to succeed)?

While there is some economic mobility between generations in the United States, it is still difficult to move up one or more quintiles in regard to one’s income[3]. 42% of children born in the bottom quintile are most likely to stay there, and another 42% move up to the second and middle quintile[3]. On the opposite end of the spectrum, 39% of those who were born into the top quintile as children in 1968 are likely to stay there, and 23% end up in the fourth quintile[3]. Children previously from lower-income families had only a 1% chance of having an income that ranks in the top 5%[4]. On the other hand, the children of wealthy families have a 22% chance of reaching the top 5%[4].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

Add that up and you see that 84% born into the lowest quintile end up in the bottom 60%. 62% of those born into the top quintile stay in the top 40%.

 

[Zoomie1980]

You are most assuradly wrong then, I'm afraid.

You're also making a point that I'm not even arguing. I get that people don't start on an even playing field. But the fact remains despite your contention getting rich doesn't just happen to people. By your analysis I should be rich by doing nothing more than sitting on my ass. I meet all your qualifiers. I wasn't raised in a ghetto and my parents were good parents. So where's my money dammit?

I am not wrong about drive and will power. Why? because for you to be right it would have to be be true that no matter the effort put forth there is simply no way the vast majority of people could become rich. I ask again. What it is preventing you (assuming you are not some amazingly unique individual, which you're probably not) from becomeing rich. What external factors are in play that you simply can not overcome?

Circumstance do not make up a person's character. Circumstances reveal their character.

The single biggest difference between those self made people and the rest of us, is not just drive and determination, but they have an enormous capacity for taking risks. Many of the successful business people I know, be it running their own business or those that have risen to executive levels in large....all took big risks at some time. Many failed and still tried again and again, and finally made it.

Most of us with families to feed and mortgages to pay simply have no stomach for the level of risk these people assumed along the way. For every wealthy person who started their own successful business there are dozens who failed. And then there are the rest, who never really take much risk at all.

SO you really need both to make it in most of the capitalist world. Willingness to work 16 hour days 6 or even 7 days a week for years to make your venture work or make a big name for yourself in your firm, AND a willingness to stick your neck out, risking everything you own, and/or standing out from the crowd in a major way at your firm by probably going against the flow (the risk, of course, getting fired...).

 

[ReillyT]

The single biggest difference between those self made people and the rest of us, is not just drive and determination, but they have an enormous capacity for taking risks. Many of the successful business people I know, be it running their own business or those that have risen to executive levels in large....all took big risks at some time. Many failed and still tried again and again, and finally made it.

Most of us with families to feed and mortgages to pay simply have no stomach for the level of risk these people assumed along the way. For every wealthy person who started their own successful business there are dozens who failed. And then there are the rest, who never really take much risk at all.

SO you really need both to make it in most of the capitalist world. Willingness to work 16 hour days 6 or even 7 days a week for years to make your venture work or make a big name for yourself in your firm, AND a willingness to stick your neck out, risking everything you own, and/or standing out from the crowd in a major way at your firm by probably going against the flow (the risk, of course, getting fired...).

I absolutely agree. The only caveat I would add (which you made implicitly) is that one's capacity for risk is in part dictated by one's station. The greater the resources at your disposal (financial, family, education, etc.), the more capable/likely you will be to take risks and to succeed.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Do you believe all humans were created with equal value? Or do you believe that those who can propel themselves above the rest through deceit and inhumanity are more admirable than John Doe, struggling to keep his shitty WalMart job and support his kids at home?

You are essentially agreeing with my position when you say:

That means some people have an inherent ability to succeed, and some don't. The people that have what it takes, mentally and creatively to do well are not worth more than the people bagging your groceries.

But OF COURSE if we had more opportunity for the lower/middle class, MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE RICH. That's common sense, c'mon you cant be that far gone. Maybe you have a fundamental disconnect.

What school of liberal mush did you graduate from? You sound like a cross between Karl Marx and a Catholic Priest.

We are NOT created equal. We are all probably loved equally in the Creator's eyes, but that being said, we are all UNIQUE. Some are smart, some are stupid, some are flat out retarded. Some are enormously talented and gifted and some aren't. I wish I could throw a baseball 98 mph with location and movement, but I can't.

So yes, some people are indeed more set to succeed. THat's just life. The only equal worthiness is in God's eyes not man. Every able bodied, sound minded American in this day and age has many opportunities to succeed. Most simply choose NOT to take them. Every person unhappy with their financial state in this country can look back at a series of poor decisions that led to their current state. They elected to take the easy courses instead of the tough ones, they elected quit school or not go the next step, or they passed on a good business opportunity for fear of failure. Many did something stupid along the way, choosing to do a criminal act, choose to be insubordinate to their boss at a bad time, choosing to be lazy and not get to work on time, refusing to volunteer for extra or challenging projects....

You are what the choices you have made in your life. We have all the opportunity we need in this country to succeed. You can't MAKE people succeed, they have to do it themselves. And if they don't, as far as I'm concerned, they can starve and die in the street.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I absolutely agree. The only caveat I would add (which you made implicitly) is that one's capacity for risk is in part dictated by one's station. The greater the resources at your disposal (financial, family, education, etc.), the more capable/likely you will be to take risks and to succeed.

Actually, in many, many cases, those with the least or next to nothing to lose, are often the BEST risk takers. Will Rodgers was a prime example. Dirt poor share-cropper parents, he made and lost three fortunes, and then made one more before he died.

 

[ReillyT]

What school of liberal mush did you graduate from? You sound like a cross between Karl Marx and a Catholic Priest.

We are NOT created equal. We are all probably loved equally in the Creator's eyes, but that being said, we are all UNIQUE. Some are smart, some are stupid, some are flat out retarded. Some are enormously talented and gifted and some aren't. I wish I could throw a baseball 98 mph with location and movement, but I can't.

So yes, some people are indeed more set to succeed. THat's just life. The only equal worthiness is in God's eyes not man. Every able bodied, sound minded American in this day and age has many opportunities to succeed. Most simply choose NOT to take them. Every person unhappy with their financial state in this country can look back at a series of poor decisions that led to their current state. They elected to take the easy courses instead of the tough ones, they elected quit school or not go the next step, or they passed on a good business opportunity for fear of failure. Many did something stupid along the way, choosing to do a criminal act, choose to be insubordinate to their boss at a bad time, choosing to be lazy and not get to work on time, refusing to volunteer for extra or challenging projects....

You are what the choices you have made in your life. We have all the opportunity we need in this country to succeed. You can't MAKE people succeed, they have to do it themselves. And if they don't, as far as I'm concerned, they can starve and die in the street.

Read up a couple of posts for his view on genetics. He/she doesn't believe everyone was created with equal ability. He obviously feels that genetics plays a large part. I believe he/she was asking whether Bern though everyone was created with equal value as a human.

That "they can starve and die in the street" bit is kind of wacko.

 

[ReillyT]

Actually, in many, many cases, those with the least or next to nothing to lose, are often the BEST risk takers. Will Rodgers was a prime example. Dirt poor share-cropper parents, he made and lost three fortunes, and then made one more before he died.

In some cases, that could be. However, the less you have, the less you have to risk (generally). The less you have to risk, the less you have to gain.

Also, for people with more regular levels of risk averseness, the less you have to fall back upon, the less you risk. Of course, there are always exceptions.

 

[Helios]

What school of liberal mush did you graduate from? You sound like a cross between Karl Marx and a Catholic Priest.

We are NOT created equal. We are all probably loved equally in the Creator's eyes, but that being said, we are all UNIQUE. Some are smart, some are stupid, some are flat out retarded. Some are enormously talented and gifted and some aren't. I wish I could throw a baseball 98 mph with location and movement, but I can't.

So yes, some people are indeed more set to succeed. THat's just life. The only equal worthiness is in God's eyes not man. Every able bodied, sound minded American in this day and age has many opportunities to succeed. Most simply choose NOT to take them. Every person unhappy with their financial state in this country can look back at a series of poor decisions that led to their current state. They elected to take the easy courses instead of the tough ones, they elected quit school or not go the next step, or they passed on a good business opportunity for fear of failure. Many did something stupid along the way, choosing to do a criminal act, choose to be insubordinate to their boss at a bad time, choosing to be lazy and not get to work on time, refusing to volunteer for extra or challenging projects....

You are what the choices you have made in your life. We have all the opportunity we need in this country to succeed. You can't MAKE people succeed, they have to do it themselves. And if they don't, as far as I'm concerned, they can starve and die in the street.

If you had read my post, you would realize you agree with me. On a side note: since I'm a free-market atheist, I doubt either Karl Marx (who I nonetheless admire) or Catholic priest would apply.

Yes, I like I ALREADY SAID, some people are more inclined to be successful. Meaning they might be smarter, more knowledgeable or have the ability to read people well... whatever it might be. And don't spew your cliche opinion of "unique but equal" at me, I am well aware that people are unique, and I merely pointed out that despite our uniqueness, we are of equal value. And DUH, people who make good decisions get places in life... that isn't under dispute, Captain Obvious. Try to pay attention, and you wouldn't constantly be making a fool of yourself.

People still have opportunity in America, and with enough determination and will power anything can be achieved. But not many people are as bright and quick as Rockefeller when he monopolized the Oil and Railway industries. However, this DOESNT give people like Rockefeller, Vanderbilt and Carnegie the right to exploit the lower classes for their soaring profits.

 

[Zoomie1980]

If you had read my post, you would realize you agree with me. On a side note: since I'm a free-market atheist, I doubt either Karl Marx (who I nonetheless admire) or Catholic priest would apply.

Yes, I like I ALREADY SAID, some people are more inclined to be successful. Meaning they might be smarter, more knowledgeable or have the ability to read people well... whatever it might be. And don't spew your cliche opinion of "unique but equal" at me, I am well aware that people are unique, and I merely pointed out that despite our uniqueness, we are of equal value. And DUH, people who make good decisions get places in life... that isn't under dispute, Captain Obvious. Try to pay attention, and you wouldn't constantly be making a fool of yourself.

People still have opportunity in America, and with enough determination and will power anything can be achieved. But not many people are as bright and quick as Rockefeller when he monopolized the Oil and Railway industries. However, this DOESNT give people like Rockefeller, Vanderbilt and Carnegie the right to exploit the lower classes for their soaring profits.

Who are we of equal value to? God, yes. Man, no.

I pay top end business analysts and system architects and Oracle Financial experts $120,000+ but the warehouse order pickers $7.50/hr. The architects are many many TIMES more valuable than the pickers. I can train a monkey to pick orders.....I'm lucky to find a single good business analyst in a year.

Introduce yourself to the laws of supply and demand. Neural surgeons make $500,000/yr because almost no one has the inherent skill or the drive to get through the schools, internships and residencies to become one. They are RARE and thus command top dollar.

And we have very well functioning labor laws in this country. No one is taking advantage of anyone. If the mill worker had maybe finished high-school, joined the military, took advantage of the GI Bill and got his college degree, he wouldn't be a mill worker would he? But he didn't and that is HIS choice and HIS burden to bear.

I still fail to see the problem with our social strata in this county.

 

[Bern80]

Do you believe all humans were created with equal value? Or do you believe that those who can propel themselves above the rest through deceit and inhumanity are more admirable than John Doe, struggling to keep his shitty WalMart job and support his kids at home?

No I don't think we are all created equal, nor do I believe we have equal value. Further I don't beleive the majority of people propel themselves through deceit.

You are essentially agreeing with my position when you say:

That means some people have an inherent ability to succeed, and some don't. The people that have what it takes, mentally and creatively to do well are not worth more than the people bagging your groceries.

Value wise they are worth more than the people that bag your groceries. What you mean is that the grocery bagger and the CEO should be treated the same. All other things being equal i would agree. But to say that they are both equally valuable to society is patently false.

But OF COURSE if we had more opportunity for the lower/middle class, MORE PEOPLE WOULD BE RICH. That's common sense, c'mon you cant be that far gone. Maybe you have a fundamental disconnect.

In of itself no. Because you are makeing many assumptions. The main one being that people will take full advantage of opportunities. As I said before people that sit and wait around for opportunities to come to them aren't very likely to succeed no matter what you throw at them. You can't be that 'far gone' to think that wealth just 'happened' to the wealthy.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

You can talk all you like about the gap between the haves and the have nots. To know whether it's a problem you have to answer the question, why.

Those who complain about this gap between the haves and the have nots, why are the have nots the have nots? Are you and all the have nots you know doing everything they can to get rich? Didn't think so. They are like 99% of the people you and I see every day going about their daily routines at their 9-5 jobs. And you want to convince me that their not rich because the man is keeping them down? And don't give me this rich were born with a silver spoon crap. Roughly 80% of millionaires are first generation millionaires.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating for some of the new folks; We are an instant gratification society. Meaning given the choice between doing something hard or something easy, almost all of us are gonna pick easy. Unfortunately getting rich isn't easy. I think you can see the real problem.

Amen. Have you ever noticed how come voting time, the more well to do are more informed and more likely to vote? The less well off hang out and talk crap about the "man this, the man that", then if you find out why they are voting, IF AT ALL, the way they are, it RARELY has anything to do with anything that is factual. I know, I have lived in both arenas and currently am in a south central LA neighborhood, after just moving out of a $1,000,000.00 plus home in a comfy upper middle class area near Rolling Hills Estates where movie stars and the such live.
We are putting the home up for sale and wanted an apt for a few months near my wifes work cuz she is pregnant, so when we get our ;cash out of the house, we will move again into a better neighborhood. But to see and experience the contrast is amazing. I hear all the neighborhood talk and hang out at the local places, the contrast is amazing.