High speed rail, Socialism, and failure UK style

[Andylusion]

So the UK leading the way in failure....

This reminds me of in Greece where they discovered that with the mount of money the government was paying for rail service, they could have paid for individual taxis for every single rail customer using their service, and saved money in the process.

So the estimated cost of $75 Billion dollars, is not expected to be well over $130 Billion, and that is only the reflected in the cost of the land. Not the cost of the construction, rolling stock, and service costs.

Additionally numerous 'whistle blowers' all fired from their positions, in order to conceal the cost over runs.

Now in a capitalist system, the companies investors wouldn't just fork over additional money, but instead demand an investigation into the fraud... and if the company runs out of money, it would end up in bankruptcy. In short, in a capitalist system, fraud would be punished and eliminated from the system, by the free-market.

Ah... but this is government. Government run, government paid for, and there are far too many politicians who would lose horribly in politicians to preside over a doomed project. So undoubtedly the politicians will pass the bill onto the tax payers, and the project will continue.

To the foolish left-wingers saying we need high speed rail... this is why we on the right-wing don't want it. It's a huge money sink, it costs more money, than it will ever produce, and it is routinely filled with corruption and waste, when you have government pushing it.

Japan is a perfect example. Tons of debt, and a sluggish economy. There is no evidence whatsoever that high speed rail improves anything... except the lining the pockets of the politicians, and the government workers, the unions, and their cronies, at the expense of the public.

 

[theHawk]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

 

[Vagabond63]

So the UK leading the way in failure....

This reminds me of in Greece where they discovered that with the mount of money the government was paying for rail service, they could have paid for individual taxis for every single rail customer using their service, and saved money in the process.

So the estimated cost of $75 Billion dollars, is not expected to be well over $130 Billion, and that is only the reflected in the cost of the land. Not the cost of the construction, rolling stock, and service costs.

Additionally numerous 'whistle blowers' all fired from their positions, in order to conceal the cost over runs.

Now in a capitalist system, the companies investors wouldn't just fork over additional money, but instead demand an investigation into the fraud... and if the company runs out of money, it would end up in bankruptcy. In short, in a capitalist system, fraud would be punished and eliminated from the system, by the free-market.

Ah... but this is government. Government run, government paid for, and there are far too many politicians who would lose horribly in politicians to preside over a doomed project. So undoubtedly the politicians will pass the bill onto the tax payers, and the project will continue.

To the foolish left-wingers saying we need high speed rail... this is why we on the right-wing don't want it. It's a huge money sink, it costs more money, than it will ever produce, and it is routinely filled with corruption and waste, when you have government pushing it.

Japan is a perfect example. Tons of debt, and a sluggish economy. There is no evidence whatsoever that high speed rail improves anything... except the lining the pockets of the politicians, and the government workers, the unions, and their cronies, at the expense of the public.

HS2 was proposed by the centrist "New" Labour Government of the time (not a socialist in sight), but implimented by successive corrupt right wing Conservative Goverments, so of course there's a cost overrun, billionaires need to be billionaires at tax payers expense.

 

[Vagabond63]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

Actually not so much.
Trains vs. planes: What's the real cost of travel? | DW | 29.08.2018

 

[theHawk]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

Actually not so much.
Trains vs. planes: What's the real cost of travel? | DW | 29.08.2018

Cherry picking a few major cities has nothing to do with what real people actually travel. I lived there for many years, I know how expensive it was for me to travel to various destinations via train or plane. 95% of the time the airline was cheaper.

 

[Andylusion]

So the UK leading the way in failure....

This reminds me of in Greece where they discovered that with the mount of money the government was paying for rail service, they could have paid for individual taxis for every single rail customer using their service, and saved money in the process.

So the estimated cost of $75 Billion dollars, is not expected to be well over $130 Billion, and that is only the reflected in the cost of the land. Not the cost of the construction, rolling stock, and service costs.

Additionally numerous 'whistle blowers' all fired from their positions, in order to conceal the cost over runs.

Now in a capitalist system, the companies investors wouldn't just fork over additional money, but instead demand an investigation into the fraud... and if the company runs out of money, it would end up in bankruptcy. In short, in a capitalist system, fraud would be punished and eliminated from the system, by the free-market.

Ah... but this is government. Government run, government paid for, and there are far too many politicians who would lose horribly in politicians to preside over a doomed project. So undoubtedly the politicians will pass the bill onto the tax payers, and the project will continue.

To the foolish left-wingers saying we need high speed rail... this is why we on the right-wing don't want it. It's a huge money sink, it costs more money, than it will ever produce, and it is routinely filled with corruption and waste, when you have government pushing it.

Japan is a perfect example. Tons of debt, and a sluggish economy. There is no evidence whatsoever that high speed rail improves anything... except the lining the pockets of the politicians, and the government workers, the unions, and their cronies, at the expense of the public.

HS2 was proposed by the centrist "New" Labour Government of the time (not a socialist in sight), but implimented by successive corrupt right wing Conservative Goverments, so of course there's a cost overrun, billionaires need to be billionaires at tax payers expense.

Politicians in general, love to have big government projects that they can slap their name on, and say "I did this!".

Whether the government that put in place the bad socialized system, was "center-right" or "socialist" does not matter.

It does not matter if I am a member of the United Beef Packers union, or if I am a member of Vegan International.... if I chow down on a steak, then I am not a vegetarian. Eating steak, is not a "vegan policy" because I'm a member of Vegan International.

Having the government run high speed rail, makes it a socialized project.

And socialized projects consistently, and universally end up having the same problems as all socialized projects.... cost over-runs and corruption. And the reason is simple.... In a private system, you can't go to investors and say "Invest in my project, which will cost $50 Billion" and then spend $100 Billion. You simply can't, because the investors will not just keep giving money. And if they find out you lied and defrauded them, you end up in court, and/or prison.

But with a socialized system, the politicians will just take more tax money, and fund their project. And they are unlikely to send people to prison, because those people sent to prison, have dirt on the politicians.

The solution is to simply not have the government involved in projects like this.

You can say "right wing conservative governments, so of course there is cost overrun".... but here's the problem with with that: I've looked at dozens of train systems around the world, and in the US. All have cost overruns. Where is the example of the system that does not have overruns?

Never every system I've seen, is a money losing venture. I think maybe Tokyo and New York, are the best examples of a profitable, self-sustaining system, if I remember right. Everything else is just a burden on the country. And even Tokyo, it's their regular transport that is profitable. Their high speed rail is a money loser.

 

[Andylusion]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

Actually not so much.
Trains vs. planes: What's the real cost of travel? | DW | 29.08.2018

I don't think I buy that.

First, I've flown a few times, and never once.... not one time ever, did I spend 3 Hours "for airport transit". Never happened.

Further, I love how your link just makes up whatever they think the "price should be" based on their baseless estimates. No, the price is what it is.

And ironically, unlike planes which do not collect tax dollars, trains and rail service do.

How much does the government subsidise the railways by?

Billions on billions of dollars go to rail service every year, on top of ticket sales.

So while riders, are paying ticket prices up front, they are paying tax subsidy from behind as well.

The reality is, all rail service is non-economical. If it was, then they wouldn't need government to fund it, to make it successful. If you doubt that, cut all government funding for rail service for one year, and then we'll see how many are still in business by the end of the year.

 

[Vagabond63]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

Actually not so much.
Trains vs. planes: What's the real cost of travel? | DW | 29.08.2018

Cherry picking a few major cities has nothing to do with what real people actually travel. I lived there for many years, I know how expensive it was for me to travel to various destinations via train or plane. 95% of the time the airline was cheaper.

The cities cited are examples of the "furthest" points of the EU and merely reflect the price/cost range. If you look at numbers in the EU 9.6 billion people used rail transport in 2017, compared to just 1 billion using air transport.

Passenger transport statistics - Statistics Explained

 

[Vagabond63]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

Actually not so much.
Trains vs. planes: What's the real cost of travel? | DW | 29.08.2018

I don't think I buy that.

First, I've flown a few times, and never once.... not one time ever, did I spend 3 Hours "for airport transit". Never happened.

Further, I love how your link just makes up whatever they think the "price should be" based on their baseless estimates. No, the price is what it is.

And ironically, unlike planes which do not collect tax dollars, trains and rail service do.

How much does the government subsidise the railways by?

Billions on billions of dollars go to rail service every year, on top of ticket sales.

So while riders, are paying ticket prices up front, they are paying tax subsidy from behind as well.

The reality is, all rail service is non-economical. If it was, then they wouldn't need government to fund it, to make it successful. If you doubt that, cut all government funding for rail service for one year, and then we'll see how many are still in business by the end of the year.

Interesting link, thanks for sharing. I notice that UK government subsidies rocketed after the rail network was privatised by a right wing government under Margaret Thatcher, while the service provided has declined overall. The latest opinion polls in the UK indivcate most people would want to see the rail system re-nationalised.

 

[Vagabond63]

First, I've flown a few times, and never once.... not one time ever, did I spend 3 Hours "for airport transit".

So have I. Have you factored in the time taken to get to the airport, park, get checked in, go through security, etc? I'm luckier than most; I live a 15 minute drive from a railway station and about an hour's drive from an airport.

 

[theHawk]

Everyone raves about Germany’s rail system. But the reality is it’s so expensive it’s usually cheaper and more convenient to just drive or even fly to further destinations.

Actually not so much.
Trains vs. planes: What's the real cost of travel? | DW | 29.08.2018

Cherry picking a few major cities has nothing to do with what real people actually travel. I lived there for many years, I know how expensive it was for me to travel to various destinations via train or plane. 95% of the time the airline was cheaper.

The cities cited are examples of the "furthest" points of the EU and merely reflect the price/cost range. If you look at numbers in the EU 9.6 billion people used rail transport in 2017, compared to just 1 billion using air transport.

Passenger transport statistics - Statistics Explained

Well duh, they majority of rail users are commuting to work, and Germany goes out of its way to make commuting by car a financial nightmare. It costs thousands of dollars to get a driver’s license, gasoline is insanely expensive, as is car insurance. If it wasn’t for government interference most people would rather be driving a car. Nothing like statism, ideas so good they are mandatory.

 

[Vagabond63]

It costs thousands of dollars to get a driver’s license,

About the same as in the USA as your figures include the cost of professional instruction.

gasoline is insanely expensive

Cheaper than here in the UK (where we've had a right wing government for a decade); American petrol prices are insanely cheap compared to Europe.

Also Europe is much more bothered about carbon emissions than your current "administration".

 

[Tommy Tainant]

So the UK leading the way in failure....

This reminds me of in Greece where they discovered that with the mount of money the government was paying for rail service, they could have paid for individual taxis for every single rail customer using their service, and saved money in the process.

So the estimated cost of $75 Billion dollars, is not expected to be well over $130 Billion, and that is only the reflected in the cost of the land. Not the cost of the construction, rolling stock, and service costs.

Additionally numerous 'whistle blowers' all fired from their positions, in order to conceal the cost over runs.

Now in a capitalist system, the companies investors wouldn't just fork over additional money, but instead demand an investigation into the fraud... and if the company runs out of money, it would end up in bankruptcy. In short, in a capitalist system, fraud would be punished and eliminated from the system, by the free-market.

Ah... but this is government. Government run, government paid for, and there are far too many politicians who would lose horribly in politicians to preside over a doomed project. So undoubtedly the politicians will pass the bill onto the tax payers, and the project will continue.

To the foolish left-wingers saying we need high speed rail... this is why we on the right-wing don't want it. It's a huge money sink, it costs more money, than it will ever produce, and it is routinely filled with corruption and waste, when you have government pushing it.

Japan is a perfect example. Tons of debt, and a sluggish economy. There is no evidence whatsoever that high speed rail improves anything... except the lining the pockets of the politicians, and the government workers, the unions, and their cronies, at the expense of the public.

HS2 was proposed by the centrist "New" Labour Government of the time (not a socialist in sight), but implimented by successive corrupt right wing Conservative Goverments, so of course there's a cost overrun, billionaires need to be billionaires at tax payers expense.

Politicians in general, love to have big government projects that they can slap their name on, and say "I did this!".

Whether the government that put in place the bad socialized system, was "center-right" or "socialist" does not matter.

It does not matter if I am a member of the United Beef Packers union, or if I am a member of Vegan International.... if I chow down on a steak, then I am not a vegetarian. Eating steak, is not a "vegan policy" because I'm a member of Vegan International.

Having the government run high speed rail, makes it a socialized project.

And socialized projects consistently, and universally end up having the same problems as all socialized projects.... cost over-runs and corruption. And the reason is simple.... In a private system, you can't go to investors and say "Invest in my project, which will cost $50 Billion" and then spend $100 Billion. You simply can't, because the investors will not just keep giving money. And if they find out you lied and defrauded them, you end up in court, and/or prison.

But with a socialized system, the politicians will just take more tax money, and fund their project. And they are unlikely to send people to prison, because those people sent to prison, have dirt on the politicians.

The solution is to simply not have the government involved in projects like this.

You can say "right wing conservative governments, so of course there is cost overrun".... but here's the problem with with that: I've looked at dozens of train systems around the world, and in the US. All have cost overruns. Where is the example of the system that does not have overruns?

Never every system I've seen, is a money losing venture. I think maybe Tokyo and New York, are the best examples of a profitable, self-sustaining system, if I remember right. Everything else is just a burden on the country. And even Tokyo, it's their regular transport that is profitable. Their high speed rail is a money loser.

So a project overseen by a right wing government for a decade, for the benefit of rich businessmen and to the benefit of rich corporations is somehow socialism.

Mate you need to get out more. This is capitalism in its purest form.