Hi all

[Artevelde]

Gender very much divides as some see restrictions on either side. This is woman's work. This is a man's work. This fact creates a mental division. It builds artificial walls. There are some very good books on gender discrimination working in both ways.

I'm not seeing how flags make that division.

Flags create walls and artificial allegiance. Ones patriotic pride stands in the way of meeting another who suffers the same symptoms.
It goes back to the schoolyard fights when two children fight because one says my dad can beat up your dad. We are both proud of our dads or nations but there is no reason to have this cause a problem and destruction.

Nothing wrong with national flags and symbols and national feelings in general. They are essential aspects of human society and diversity.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

yeah, ok

but there is mens work and womens work.

there are jobs women struggle at that men accell at, and jobs women can do that men won't bother with b/c it's a pain to flounder about.

What you did there was make a gender judgment. You are assuming that no men would be good at a certain work because you think it feminine. It also assumes that all women cannot do certain tasks because society assigned them to gender specific roles.
This is not always true. In fact in many cases it is not true.
example: A man can clean a house and cook equally as well as a woman. Yet advertising most of time shows a woman cleaning a home or cooking. They also show males in those roles many times as inadequate to the task and looking foolish.
This is what I mean by the gender divide. It's more the mental image than the reality.

That's just clever imaging on the side of men. Who wants to clean house if they don't have to. If you can convince the gals they do it better, they'll want to do it more, too!

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Welcome. I'm pretty new here too.
I certainly wouldn't classify myself as very liberal so maybe we will get into debates. Good spirited debate is what appeals to me.

Nice to meet you. Good debate is always wonderful. The name calling and other foolishness gets old very fast.

Well, prepare yourself for "old very fast", then! Personally, I usually drop a thread when it becomes a pissing match between a few other contributors. The worst name-callers are on my ignore list, a very useful tool.

I expect the names and insults fly as well as anywhere. I finally get bored at being insulted by the same people and find a new place to post. The nature of a board will change over time depending on the active membership and that can create havoc. I take a break or just move on. I don't like the ignore feature and have rarely use it. Sometimes in the midst of a pissing contest someone may say something worth hearing.

 

[Artevelde]

What you did there was make a gender judgment. You are assuming that no men would be good at a certain work because you think it feminine. It also assumes that all women cannot do certain tasks because society assigned them to gender specific roles.
This is not always true. In fact in many cases it is not true.
example: A man can clean a house and cook equally as well as a woman. Yet advertising most of time shows a woman cleaning a home or cooking. They also show males in those roles many times as inadequate to the task and looking foolish.
This is what I mean by the gender divide. It's more the mental image than the reality.

That's just clever imaging on the side of men. Who wants to clean house if they don't have to. If you can convince the gals they do it better, they'll want to do it more, too!

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

My partner is convinced - in no uncertain terms - that I cannot clean the house up to her standards (sadly, she is right). Although I've proven myself capable of doing laundry, she has banished me from that task too. Ironing, on the other hand, is my proven field of expertise. As for mowing the lawn, we pay a gardner.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I would disagree with you on the arab-Israeli conflict, which is first and foremost a national conflict.
The idea that ^people have to keep their religion to themselves conflicts with my view that everybody should be able to profess their own views, be they political, philosophical, or religious, freely and openly.

Then what you are seeing I mentioned as well. Flags of nations divide. Both religion and nationalism may well be the cause. You can certainly have the views but when you use them as a bludgeon to beat someone else up they are not worth it.
Take religion for example. I am an atheist. A person of faith does not bother me. It doesn't matter at all what they believe. They can even pray in my presence without me being disruptive. They can bring a bible to work. None of that matters. Once They or I step over the line and pressure someone or tell them they are wrong in what they believe it creates a conflict. This is what I mean by keeping these things to yourself.
Even a good religious discussion is an enhancement to understanding. But when we begin to try and enforce our views on others we cross the line.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I'm not seeing how flags make that division.

Flags create walls and artificial allegiance. Ones patriotic pride stands in the way of meeting another who suffers the same symptoms.
It goes back to the schoolyard fights when two children fight because one says my dad can beat up your dad. We are both proud of our dads or nations but there is no reason to have this cause a problem and destruction.

Nothing wrong with national flags and symbols and national feelings in general. They are essential aspects of human society and diversity.

They are not necessarily essential. They may add meaning to some peoples lives. They certainly are aspects of our lives but they need not exist at all. They are a human construct to say this is mine and you are on my side of the line. The world was not made with flags attached. They were put there by humanity. These separate ideologies, prosperity, and cultures.
The idea of the ownership of land is artificial as no one sold the land to the first humans. They claimed it as they went along and broke it into sections and subsections for their own needs. Then claimed them as their right. The first owners did not buy anything. They put a fence up and said this is mine keep out.

 

[Artevelde]

I would disagree with you on the arab-Israeli conflict, which is first and foremost a national conflict.
The idea that ^people have to keep their religion to themselves conflicts with my view that everybody should be able to profess their own views, be they political, philosophical, or religious, freely and openly.

Then what you are seeing I mentioned as well. Flags of nations divide. Both religion and nationalism may well be the cause. You can certainly have the views but when you use them as a bludgeon to beat someone else up they are not worth it.
Take religion for example. I am an atheist. A person of faith does not bother me. It doesn't matter at all what they believe. They can even pray in my presence without me being disruptive. They can bring a bible to work. None of that matters. Once They or I step over the line and pressure someone or tell them they are wrong in what they believe it creates a conflict. This is what I mean by keeping these things to yourself.
Even a good religious discussion is an enhancement to understanding. But when we begin to try and enforce our views on others we cross the line.

If people are free to express their views, then they also have to able to express their disagreement with the views of others. Obviously people of different faiths, political convictions, etc should disagree with each other and be able to express those disagreements. That(s freedom and can't be put in one hat with "pressuring" someone.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

That's just clever imaging on the side of men. Who wants to clean house if they don't have to. If you can convince the gals they do it better, they'll want to do it more, too!

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

My partner is convinced - in no uncertain terms - that I cannot clean the house up to her standards (sadly, she is right). Although I've proven myself capable of doing laundry, she has banished me from that task too. Ironing, on the other hand, is my proven field of expertise. As for mowing the lawn, we pay a gardner.

She has a track record to go by when it comes to you cleaning house. She may be correct and that is fine. You can still do the task but maybe not to her standards.
I can cook. My wife (same sex marriage) is better than I am at that task. She does the cooking. This division comes because of a track record rather than an artificial designation as to what gender does something better.
We both do the gardening.

 

[Artevelde]

Flags create walls and artificial allegiance. Ones patriotic pride stands in the way of meeting another who suffers the same symptoms.
It goes back to the schoolyard fights when two children fight because one says my dad can beat up your dad. We are both proud of our dads or nations but there is no reason to have this cause a problem and destruction.

Nothing wrong with national flags and symbols and national feelings in general. They are essential aspects of human society and diversity.

They are not necessarily essential. They may add meaning to some peoples lives. They certainly are aspects of our lives but they need not exist at all. They are a human construct to say this is mine and you are on my side of the line. The world was not made with flags attached. They were put there by humanity. These separate ideologies, prosperity, and cultures.
The idea of the ownership of land is artificial as no one sold the land to the first humans. They claimed it as they went along and broke it into sections and subsections for their own needs. Then claimed them as their right. The first owners did not buy anything. They put a fence up and said this is mine keep out.

Everything human is a construct, including law and morality. As you clearly indicate yourself, it is very natural for people to form nations, language groups, states, etc.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I would disagree with you on the arab-Israeli conflict, which is first and foremost a national conflict.
The idea that ^people have to keep their religion to themselves conflicts with my view that everybody should be able to profess their own views, be they political, philosophical, or religious, freely and openly.

Then what you are seeing I mentioned as well. Flags of nations divide. Both religion and nationalism may well be the cause. You can certainly have the views but when you use them as a bludgeon to beat someone else up they are not worth it.
Take religion for example. I am an atheist. A person of faith does not bother me. It doesn't matter at all what they believe. They can even pray in my presence without me being disruptive. They can bring a bible to work. None of that matters. Once They or I step over the line and pressure someone or tell them they are wrong in what they believe it creates a conflict. This is what I mean by keeping these things to yourself.
Even a good religious discussion is an enhancement to understanding. But when we begin to try and enforce our views on others we cross the line.

If people are free to express their views, then they also have to able to express their disagreement with the views of others. Obviously people of different faiths, political convictions, etc should disagree with each other and be able to express those disagreements. That(s freedom and can't be put in one hat with "pressuring" someone.

I mentioned religious discussions. My religious friends and I certainly disagree and sometimes loudly. The point is they are not pressing me nor do I press them to change what they believe. We retain our views and learn from each other.
My wife is religious and I am not. She does not press me to attend any religious service. I do go with her to some of the functions and it will not change my views.

 

[Artevelde]

Then what you are seeing I mentioned as well. Flags of nations divide. Both religion and nationalism may well be the cause. You can certainly have the views but when you use them as a bludgeon to beat someone else up they are not worth it.
Take religion for example. I am an atheist. A person of faith does not bother me. It doesn't matter at all what they believe. They can even pray in my presence without me being disruptive. They can bring a bible to work. None of that matters. Once They or I step over the line and pressure someone or tell them they are wrong in what they believe it creates a conflict. This is what I mean by keeping these things to yourself.
Even a good religious discussion is an enhancement to understanding. But when we begin to try and enforce our views on others we cross the line.

If people are free to express their views, then they also have to able to express their disagreement with the views of others. Obviously people of different faiths, political convictions, etc should disagree with each other and be able to express those disagreements. That(s freedom and can't be put in one hat with "pressuring" someone.

I mentioned religious discussions. My religious friends and I certainly disagree and sometimes loudly. The point is they are not pressing me nor do I press them to change what they believe. We retain our views and learn from each other.
My wife is religious and I am not. She does not press me to attend any religious service. I do go with her to some of the functions and it will not change my views.

OK, so your differences on religion divide you from some of your friends. Absolutely no harm in that. Imagine how boring it would be if they all thought the same.

 

[gallantwarrior]

What you did there was make a gender judgment. You are assuming that no men would be good at a certain work because you think it feminine. It also assumes that all women cannot do certain tasks because society assigned them to gender specific roles.
This is not always true. In fact in many cases it is not true.
example: A man can clean a house and cook equally as well as a woman. Yet advertising most of time shows a woman cleaning a home or cooking. They also show males in those roles many times as inadequate to the task and looking foolish.
This is what I mean by the gender divide. It's more the mental image than the reality.

That's just clever imaging on the side of men. Who wants to clean house if they don't have to. If you can convince the gals they do it better, they'll want to do it more, too!

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

Women are not innocent in these efforts. Mechanical maintenance is considered "men's work". I often see women who would rather not be crawling around under a filthy car to drain the oil and change it. Guys appear to believe they are genetically coded to do mechanical things and most do so gladly, rather than doing that nasty women's job, cleaning house.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Nothing wrong with national flags and symbols and national feelings in general. They are essential aspects of human society and diversity.

They are not necessarily essential. They may add meaning to some peoples lives. They certainly are aspects of our lives but they need not exist at all. They are a human construct to say this is mine and you are on my side of the line. The world was not made with flags attached. They were put there by humanity. These separate ideologies, prosperity, and cultures.
The idea of the ownership of land is artificial as no one sold the land to the first humans. They claimed it as they went along and broke it into sections and subsections for their own needs. Then claimed them as their right. The first owners did not buy anything. They put a fence up and said this is mine keep out.

Everything human is a construct, including law and morality. As you clearly indicate yourself, it is very natural for people to form nations, language groups, states, etc.

Everything certainly is a human construct. You use Law and morality as an example. Law is to keep those that will disrupt in line and give them consequences. Morals are a tool of judgment and are meaningless in my mind as a guideline for anything. They change from person to person and are even more in flux than laws.
Yes people are communal but was it the nature of language that eventually did divide? What caused humans to design nations and borders? What causes others to judge someone by the shade of skin, accent, or religion. How many gods do you think there might be? Each religion would have there own that agrees with them. So why is there this religious feeding frenzy. It is because humanity has chosen what and how they will believe. Religious action is a human construct as well.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Nice to meet you. Good debate is always wonderful. The name calling and other foolishness gets old very fast.

Well, prepare yourself for "old very fast", then! Personally, I usually drop a thread when it becomes a pissing match between a few other contributors. The worst name-callers are on my ignore list, a very useful tool.

I expect the names and insults fly as well as anywhere. I finally get bored at being insulted by the same people and find a new place to post. The nature of a board will change over time depending on the active membership and that can create havoc. I take a break or just move on. I don't like the ignore feature and have rarely use it. Sometimes in the midst of a pissing contest someone may say something worth hearing.

I find it more pleasant to have a couple of the fellow travelers here on ignore. After several months of participation, I noticed that they never contribute anything of any value, preferring sniping remarks and one-line personal insults. There's one here who has a distinctively....artistic style that makes wading through their posts more effort than they are worth. You will no doubt find your own level. Good luck, and welcome!

 

[gallantwarrior]

That's just clever imaging on the side of men. Who wants to clean house if they don't have to. If you can convince the gals they do it better, they'll want to do it more, too!

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

My partner is convinced - in no uncertain terms - that I cannot clean the house up to her standards (sadly, she is right). Although I've proven myself capable of doing laundry, she has banished me from that task too. Ironing, on the other hand, is my proven field of expertise. As for mowing the lawn, we pay a gardner.

The joys of being gloriously single! There are no arguments about who does what, or blame if something isn't done. I get to fold my towels the way I like! My business partner is useful because he hates book work, so I get to keep the books, do all the online business while he shovels snow off the roofs. One provides muscle, the other brains, it works for a business. I would hate to be married to this guy, though. He's an old-fashioned misogynist when it comes to how he treats women.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

If people are free to express their views, then they also have to able to express their disagreement with the views of others. Obviously people of different faiths, political convictions, etc should disagree with each other and be able to express those disagreements. That(s freedom and can't be put in one hat with "pressuring" someone.

I mentioned religious discussions. My religious friends and I certainly disagree and sometimes loudly. The point is they are not pressing me nor do I press them to change what they believe. We retain our views and learn from each other.
My wife is religious and I am not. She does not press me to attend any religious service. I do go with her to some of the functions and it will not change my views.

OK, so your differences on religion divide you from some of your friends. Absolutely no harm in that. Imagine how boring it would be if they all thought the same.

No those differences do not divide us at all. They make us unique. I am an atheist as I stated earlier. My wife is Jewish. I have Christian, Islamic, and Buddhist friends. So the religions have not divided us at all. They unite us as people not as beliefs of cultural constructs. We can sit at a table and bring the worlds religions together over bread and not be divided but united in that we are all people.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Flags create walls and artificial allegiance. Ones patriotic pride stands in the way of meeting another who suffers the same symptoms.
It goes back to the schoolyard fights when two children fight because one says my dad can beat up your dad. We are both proud of our dads or nations but there is no reason to have this cause a problem and destruction.

Nothing wrong with national flags and symbols and national feelings in general. They are essential aspects of human society and diversity.

They are not necessarily essential. They may add meaning to some peoples lives. They certainly are aspects of our lives but they need not exist at all. They are a human construct to say this is mine and you are on my side of the line. The world was not made with flags attached. They were put there by humanity. These separate ideologies, prosperity, and cultures.
The idea of the ownership of land is artificial as no one sold the land to the first humans. They claimed it as they went along and broke it into sections and subsections for their own needs. Then claimed them as their right. The first owners did not buy anything. They put a fence up and said this is mine keep out.

Your statement implies that you do not believe in individual ownership. If that is true, how would you suggest all human commerce and other interaction be conducted?

 

[Katiegrrl0]

That's just clever imaging on the side of men. Who wants to clean house if they don't have to. If you can convince the gals they do it better, they'll want to do it more, too!

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

Women are not innocent in these efforts. Mechanical maintenance is considered "men's work". I often see women who would rather not be crawling around under a filthy car to drain the oil and change it. Guys appear to believe they are genetically coded to do mechanical things and most do so gladly, rather than doing that nasty women's job, cleaning house.

I never said the images were solely created by women. Yes there are many women who would not want to work on cars and all they know about them is that you put the key in and it takes you where you are going. I raise my hand as one of them. I'm sure that many men would not relish the idea of making a dress. I can not make a dress either by the way and have zero interest in the task. But there are women who are auto mechanics and men who design and make clothing. We are all capable.
If I walk into a shop at the same time as a man and fill out an application to be a mechanic he may get the job because it is seen as man's work. A gender division.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

Well, prepare yourself for "old very fast", then! Personally, I usually drop a thread when it becomes a pissing match between a few other contributors. The worst name-callers are on my ignore list, a very useful tool.

I expect the names and insults fly as well as anywhere. I finally get bored at being insulted by the same people and find a new place to post. The nature of a board will change over time depending on the active membership and that can create havoc. I take a break or just move on. I don't like the ignore feature and have rarely use it. Sometimes in the midst of a pissing contest someone may say something worth hearing.

I find it more pleasant to have a couple of the fellow travelers here on ignore. After several months of participation, I noticed that they never contribute anything of any value, preferring sniping remarks and one-line personal insults. There's one here who has a distinctively....artistic style that makes wading through their posts more effort than they are worth. You will no doubt find your own level. Good luck, and welcome!

Thanks for the advice. I will know that I have been warned. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[Katiegrrl0]

I like your response. The mental manipulation aside, both, men and women can clean house, do laundry, and mow the lawn. I think the mental image allows us to place the other gender in a set position.

My partner is convinced - in no uncertain terms - that I cannot clean the house up to her standards (sadly, she is right). Although I've proven myself capable of doing laundry, she has banished me from that task too. Ironing, on the other hand, is my proven field of expertise. As for mowing the lawn, we pay a gardner.

The joys of being gloriously single! There are no arguments about who does what, or blame if something isn't done. I get to fold my towels the way I like! My business partner is useful because he hates book work, so I get to keep the books, do all the online business while he shovels snow off the roofs. One provides muscle, the other brains, it works for a business. I would hate to be married to this guy, though. He's an old-fashioned misogynist when it comes to how he treats women.

Well than you certainly would not want to be married to him. It seems to work out well for you the way life is. I hope for your sake that it stays that way.