Hi all, Senior in HS and trying to understand

[there4eyeM]

Webster's, nor anyone else's, dictionary does not 'bind' anything (which should be obvious to anyone who has seen how the word 'fascist' is used in threads).
Words mean a combination of what they have been accepted and used to mean and what they currently 'mean' to speakers of the language.
As with every other aspect of human life and reasoning, words are relative.

 

[OldLady]

Point to the place on the teddy bear where the government touched you.

Dear Lewdog:

* If the bear was made in the US where workers had vacation and employment rights and protections,
were under OSHA safety regulations, and weren't child laborers (but they could be exploited prison labor),
and if the taxes from the sale of the bear goes to city, state or federal taxes,
and might pay for helpful or abusive things, that may or may not represent the taxpayers paying in
(or if the bear is made of materials that contribute to an environmental hazard or waste that is unsustainable, and the corporation profiting is not taking that into account as part of the cost of the production and their own costs to pay)

that's different from

* a bear made by illegal slave labor, children forced to work in unsafe conditions without breaks
or seeing the outdoors or their families, working for 50 cents a day, or to pay off rent in a dorm
that costs more than they make so they stay enslaved.
* or a bear made from homegrown materials by fair trade workers where the money
stays with the community and workers and isn't channeled into a larger corporation that neglects them

But again, if it's made by prison labor exploited by others for profit,
this could take place in the US or in other countries, and could still
involve "involuntary servitude" outside the legal conditions on restitution, penalty, or deprivation of liberty for crimes.

Emily, I've worked in a prison, and inmates FIGHT for those jobs. It is something to do besides sit around watching tv all day, AND it gives them a small "nest egg" for when they are released, or if they're not getting released during their lifetimes, it is money to spend on chips and books at the commissary. "Involuntary servitude?" Unless you're talking about a very different scenario than I'm aware of, the prisoners LOVE those jobs.

Dear OldLady
1. Are the workers keeping the income from their own labor?
There needs to be accountability of what are the costs of restitution they owe proportionally for crimes,
and what are their costs. And make sure they are working off their own debt so they have goals
and can track progress.
2. Are they working for private corporations that are using cheap prison labor to profit others?
This is what I heard was going on. (previously I heard that phone companies were caught abusing prison labor to do sales or service calls, now I've heard high end dept stores use prison labor to make their goods, and one
activist told me of a unit where the inmates are being abused and enslaved even trafficked there and he
wants to free them from that mess.)

3. IF THERE IS ABUSE GOING ON that could count as "racketeering" or trafficking of labor under RICO
why not allow these abuse victims to TAKE BACK the prison programs as restitution
and turn it into microlending and business building where they learn management skills
and the money DOES go into paying off restitution they owe and paying their costs
instead of paying private profit?

Just police it and make sure it isn't being exploited, but is run more like a "work-study" program
where inmates are treated equally as students who can pay for their education and housing by working onsite
like a campus.

Why not turn sweatshops and prisons into schools and make sure the labor is managed safely without abuses:
www.rightsfortheworkers.org

At the prison I worked at, the prisoners kept their money except if they owed restitution or other court fines, at which point a percentage is taken from their earnings to pay those. That helped them when released, since they didn't get out with huge fines hanging over their heads. I don't know about any of the other things you bring up. Thank you for the suggestions, but I will tell you realistically tax payers are willing to contribute squat to prisoners. Around here many were absolutely incensed that they are even allowed tv's. The feds have insisted on work ready programs to help prisoners leave there employable, but the funds to back it up are scant and the personnel to carry out these programs are just not available due to "cost saving measures" over the years. Good ideas, though.

 

[Lewdog]

Point to the place on the teddy bear where the government touched you.

Dear Lewdog:

* If the bear was made in the US where workers had vacation and employment rights and protections,
were under OSHA safety regulations, and weren't child laborers (but they could be exploited prison labor),
and if the taxes from the sale of the bear goes to city, state or federal taxes,
and might pay for helpful or abusive things, that may or may not represent the taxpayers paying in
(or if the bear is made of materials that contribute to an environmental hazard or waste that is unsustainable, and the corporation profiting is not taking that into account as part of the cost of the production and their own costs to pay)

that's different from

* a bear made by illegal slave labor, children forced to work in unsafe conditions without breaks
or seeing the outdoors or their families, working for 50 cents a day, or to pay off rent in a dorm
that costs more than they make so they stay enslaved.
* or a bear made from homegrown materials by fair trade workers where the money
stays with the community and workers and isn't channeled into a larger corporation that neglects them

But again, if it's made by prison labor exploited by others for profit,
this could take place in the US or in other countries, and could still
involve "involuntary servitude" outside the legal conditions on restitution, penalty, or deprivation of liberty for crimes.

Emily, I've worked in a prison, and inmates FIGHT for those jobs. It is something to do besides sit around watching tv all day, AND it gives them a small "nest egg" for when they are released, or if they're not getting released during their lifetimes, it is money to spend on chips and books at the commissary. "Involuntary servitude?" Unless you're talking about a very different scenario than I'm aware of, the prisoners LOVE those jobs.

Dear OldLady
1. Are the workers keeping the income from their own labor?
There needs to be accountability of what are the costs of restitution they owe proportionally for crimes,
and what are their costs. And make sure they are working off their own debt so they have goals
and can track progress.
2. Are they working for private corporations that are using cheap prison labor to profit others?
This is what I heard was going on. (previously I heard that phone companies were caught abusing prison labor to do sales or service calls, now I've heard high end dept stores use prison labor to make their goods, and one
activist told me of a unit where the inmates are being abused and enslaved even trafficked there and he
wants to free them from that mess.)

3. IF THERE IS ABUSE GOING ON that could count as "racketeering" or trafficking of labor under RICO
why not allow these abuse victims to TAKE BACK the prison programs as restitution
and turn it into microlending and business building where they learn management skills
and the money DOES go into paying off restitution they owe and paying their costs
instead of paying private profit?

Just police it and make sure it isn't being exploited, but is run more like a "work-study" program
where inmates are treated equally as students who can pay for their education and housing by working onsite
like a campus.

Why not turn sweatshops and prisons into schools and make sure the labor is managed safely without abuses:
www.rightsfortheworkers.org

At the prison I worked at, the prisoners kept their money except if they owed restitution or other court fines, at which point a percentage is taken from their earnings to pay those. That helped them when released, since they didn't get out with huge fines hanging over their heads. I don't know about any of the other things you bring up. Thank you for the suggestions, but I will tell you realistically tax payers are willing to contribute squat to prisoners. Around here many were absolutely incensed that they are even allowed tv's. The feds have insisted on work ready programs to help prisoners leave there employable, but the funds to back it up are scant and the personnel to carry out these programs are just not available due to "cost saving measures" over the years. Good ideas, though.

I worked at a state prison in Ohio for 5 years and you are right about several things.

 

[OldLady]

Hey, guys. We scared off the kid.

 

[Stratakat]

Graduating this up-coming year (yay!) and want to try and understand this thing we call our government...
Here to learn!

Hi there Sr in HS.
It's so encouraging to see you here.

The next phase in our government is getting everyone involved.
It's not an option any more to sit on the sidelines and just criticize those involved.


Great just so great to see you here. Do you have friends with your quest?

Welcome home

 

[RWS]

The biggest difference is that everybody is going to disagree about one thing or the other. Never fails. Parties try to group as many of those disagreements as possible into one side or the other, to polarize us. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong, yet they have to split us up in order to find a winner.

Once people believe that all Democrats are for their beliefs, or all Republicans represent their beliefs, is when American Politics becomes a "religion". We've been seeing that for a very long time, and it's time to understand how bad it is.

Because religion is the biggest horror story in human history, and why politics has to turn away from that mentality if we wish to betterment society.

Fuck the parties, let righteous people rule. Problem is how to figure it out... And we have 4 years before we go through this again! I'm working on figuring it out... I hope the OP and others do the same.

Dear RWS and 18 and Life
Good point, that people have different beliefs and are going to disagree.

That brings up another MAJOR point:
Since people in the distinct parties have their OWN political beliefs and platforms,
why not separate taxes and responsibilities for policies,
and let each govern their own members and resources through their own party?

What legislative changes or agreements between parties are necessary
to establish equal respect for political beliefs, as we argue to separate
religious beliefs from govt and keep them private?

Because political beliefs inherently involve govt,
such as gun rights and voting rights,
right to marriage and right to prayer through public institutions,
right to life and right to health care, etc.,
these are harder to separate from govt.
So the other way to treat them equally is to endorse them all
and include them all in govt as an equal choice.

I propose a third house of Congress that
allows representation by party, for the purpose of conflict resolution,
and mediation to reach a consensus on policy -- where the parties
agree shall be public policy and govt jurisdiction, and where the
parties disagree that is delegated to states or parties as needed.

Is an Amendment to the Constitution needed for this?
Since there is no mention or Amendment involving political parties
and beliefs, can such an agreement also be done through parties.

Where any reform touch tax policies and state-federal relations,
each issue of law would require its own revisions through
the given legislative process.

I would also suggest separating the powers of President
and Vice President into Internal/Domestic and External/Foreign Affairs.
So we can elect 2-4 people for these positions, divide the work,
and possibly employ leaders from more than one party instead
of competing for the same office. That would take a Constitutional
Amendment to change the rules on positions and elections.

In general, I believe we need parties to be represented in a
Constitutional conference to review judicial powers and interpretation
of the Constitution, because there is irreconcilable disagreement.

We do not agree on political beliefs, so how do we manage those
differences and respect equal protection and representation of interests?

If we cannot agree on the above suggested solutions,
I suggest having an agreement or amendment
that conflicts concerning political beliefs should be
resolved by mediation and consensus to protect the
equal interests and beliefs of all citizens. If people involved
in a conflict agree to majority rule to decide the law for them,
then the current process can be used; but where people do
not agree to compromise their political beliefs for majority rule
or court ruling, then those citizens can invoke the right to
conflict resolution, mediation and consensus until the issue
is settled to the satisfaction of all parties to the conflict.

This is an extension of both Amendment 1, 10 and 14,
and also addresses issues of discrimination by creed under
the Civil Rights movement to extend equal protection of
the laws to public institutions. I also suggest extending
equal protections and responsibility for the laws to all
citizens and corporations, including political religious
nonprofit partisan business educational media etc.,
to be equally responsible for enforcing the
Bill of Rights, and 14th Amendments on equal protections,
and the Code of Ethics for Govt Service, and redressing
any grievances, objections, or complaints of abuse or
conflicts infringing or threatening equal protection of laws.

Great ideas, let me just see if I've generally got this straight, on first read.

So we have a government that takes care of the running of the nation on a global scale. Military budget, taxes for global affairs, science for exploration, foreign policy, etc... Things that aren't tied to a religious point of view (though foreign policy is very inclined to that) or internal issues.

And another government that governs the human/internal issues within our country, like budget/taxes for internal affairs, abortion, human rights, immigration, gun rights, agriculture, infrastructure, etc...

An external and an internal government. Running under different control based on voter preferences, but still somehow working together.

I really like it! How that can work, and how it can be allowed to happen, are huge questions. First, of course, is figuring out how it can work in a limited budget for both governments to draw from. Then we can figure out how to make it happen. I think it is a great idea on how to separate the different issues that Dem/Rep parties isolate, to make our politicians more closely represent our wants and needs.

This is definitely a step in the right direction! Needs more people to think about it and share ideas.

Dear RWS I think the best way is to call together members and leaders of all the
parties and states to take this idea and fill in the outline.

Hold Constitutional conferences on where their state and party members
agree or disagree with other states and parties where to draw the lines
and where to delegate which tasks. We have to work this out together.

It will empower the people to learn and share solutions and problems
why one thing works and something else doesn't. We will learn
the laws and process, by sharing notes and including all
objections and solutions in the answers.Not everyone will
adopt the same answers, but all should have equal choice
and access.

I think that is the best approach, to empower and include
people regardless which party they align with to express their beliefs
about govt. Then from there, we map out how to organize.
What is left to states or to party, what is national through
party or federal through govt. We all agree who is going to
be in charge of what, so all groups get their interests protected.

Well that's where it would fail, if we take the current members and leaders to try to make it happen. Because they definitely won't want to make it happen...

Because they lose their jobs.

It will take a revolution of ideas to make this happen. And a crack in the infrastructure of the Constitution to allow it.

But I think the stages are set. Whatever happens, I'm definitely down for that 2-stage gov't idea. I think it should iterate more than 2 stages, but that is the best idea I've heard, rather than voting Rep/Dem.

But seriously, it takes Trump to make this happen.... As sad as it seems...

Dear RWS no they don't lose their jobs, the jobs would double.
For each office there would be now an internal and external office.

To afford this split, such as splitting the salary between the two,
that would mean each office holder works an outside job to support themselves
and works with the partner office to split that work.

I think that's better anywyay, and most people are making money on the side,
so this just cuts their job duties in half so they can work another job.

I've had to work two jobs to pay for damage done by govt abuses in two districts
I was trying to help recover and rebuild their community plans destroyed by govt corruption.

And with the policies passed by Congress, lots of other citizens are having to
work two part time or full time jobs because of the economic restructuring by companies to adjust as well.

So isn't it fair to ask people in govt, that if we're having to pay these costs
by working two jobs, so should they. And split the duties in half so they can manage both.

I think we could find the political leaders who already work two jobs
and can consult on public policy at the same time. Maybe that level
of leadership would rise to the top who can do the work, while
supporting themselves so they aren't a burden on taxpayers,
and don't ask citizens to work any harder than they have to!

What do you think? Shall we consult with the Greens
and Workers unions on this idea to lobby the officials
to work two jobs like everyone else has to, and start job sharing?

I definitely understand your points, but a lot of the problems we have with government, is about corruption. Forcing them to work 2 jobs, like a citizen, just opens up more opportunities for corruption.

I think what we need to weave into our government is a sense of responsibility.

Where, if you don't meet your level of responsibility, you go to jail.

Politicians should be held accountable to produce the needs of their constituents. When they don't do that, they should suffer the consequences. This is how we get corrupt people out of the system, and allow true people to succeed.

But the corruption is often very sublime, and only seen after many years.

Given the level of technology that we have, we should be able to get a pulse on the citizen rating for any particular politician.

And when they fall under a certain percentage, they should be immediately removed from office. I realize how hard that is to make true, but it is not far off in our future.

A politician cannot make bad decisions for the public for his/her personal benefit, and continue to do so for a long time. A heart-beat level of approval, may allow us to stop these people sooner, rather than later. Because that person, once approval ratings go low enough, will go to jail for 10 years.

I don't know... this is one of my ideas of how to stop corruption in the future, and it involves real-time thinking, and instant penalties for the corrupt.

I'm just throwing that out here for now, I've thought about it a lot more, but this is all I can produce on a late Sat night!

 

[RWS]

Politicians should be held accountable when they sell their souls to get elected, and then don't fulfill their promises.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear RWS and 18 and Life
Good point, that people have different beliefs and are going to disagree.

That brings up another MAJOR point:
Since people in the distinct parties have their OWN political beliefs and platforms,
why not separate taxes and responsibilities for policies,
and let each govern their own members and resources through their own party?

What legislative changes or agreements between parties are necessary
to establish equal respect for political beliefs, as we argue to separate
religious beliefs from govt and keep them private?

Because political beliefs inherently involve govt,
such as gun rights and voting rights,
right to marriage and right to prayer through public institutions,
right to life and right to health care, etc.,
these are harder to separate from govt.
So the other way to treat them equally is to endorse them all
and include them all in govt as an equal choice.

I propose a third house of Congress that
allows representation by party, for the purpose of conflict resolution,
and mediation to reach a consensus on policy -- where the parties
agree shall be public policy and govt jurisdiction, and where the
parties disagree that is delegated to states or parties as needed.

Is an Amendment to the Constitution needed for this?
Since there is no mention or Amendment involving political parties
and beliefs, can such an agreement also be done through parties.

Where any reform touch tax policies and state-federal relations,
each issue of law would require its own revisions through
the given legislative process.

I would also suggest separating the powers of President
and Vice President into Internal/Domestic and External/Foreign Affairs.
So we can elect 2-4 people for these positions, divide the work,
and possibly employ leaders from more than one party instead
of competing for the same office. That would take a Constitutional
Amendment to change the rules on positions and elections.

In general, I believe we need parties to be represented in a
Constitutional conference to review judicial powers and interpretation
of the Constitution, because there is irreconcilable disagreement.

We do not agree on political beliefs, so how do we manage those
differences and respect equal protection and representation of interests?

If we cannot agree on the above suggested solutions,
I suggest having an agreement or amendment
that conflicts concerning political beliefs should be
resolved by mediation and consensus to protect the
equal interests and beliefs of all citizens. If people involved
in a conflict agree to majority rule to decide the law for them,
then the current process can be used; but where people do
not agree to compromise their political beliefs for majority rule
or court ruling, then those citizens can invoke the right to
conflict resolution, mediation and consensus until the issue
is settled to the satisfaction of all parties to the conflict.

This is an extension of both Amendment 1, 10 and 14,
and also addresses issues of discrimination by creed under
the Civil Rights movement to extend equal protection of
the laws to public institutions. I also suggest extending
equal protections and responsibility for the laws to all
citizens and corporations, including political religious
nonprofit partisan business educational media etc.,
to be equally responsible for enforcing the
Bill of Rights, and 14th Amendments on equal protections,
and the Code of Ethics for Govt Service, and redressing
any grievances, objections, or complaints of abuse or
conflicts infringing or threatening equal protection of laws.

Great ideas, let me just see if I've generally got this straight, on first read.

So we have a government that takes care of the running of the nation on a global scale. Military budget, taxes for global affairs, science for exploration, foreign policy, etc... Things that aren't tied to a religious point of view (though foreign policy is very inclined to that) or internal issues.

And another government that governs the human/internal issues within our country, like budget/taxes for internal affairs, abortion, human rights, immigration, gun rights, agriculture, infrastructure, etc...

An external and an internal government. Running under different control based on voter preferences, but still somehow working together.

I really like it! How that can work, and how it can be allowed to happen, are huge questions. First, of course, is figuring out how it can work in a limited budget for both governments to draw from. Then we can figure out how to make it happen. I think it is a great idea on how to separate the different issues that Dem/Rep parties isolate, to make our politicians more closely represent our wants and needs.

This is definitely a step in the right direction! Needs more people to think about it and share ideas.

Dear RWS I think the best way is to call together members and leaders of all the
parties and states to take this idea and fill in the outline.

Hold Constitutional conferences on where their state and party members
agree or disagree with other states and parties where to draw the lines
and where to delegate which tasks. We have to work this out together.

It will empower the people to learn and share solutions and problems
why one thing works and something else doesn't. We will learn
the laws and process, by sharing notes and including all
objections and solutions in the answers.Not everyone will
adopt the same answers, but all should have equal choice
and access.

I think that is the best approach, to empower and include
people regardless which party they align with to express their beliefs
about govt. Then from there, we map out how to organize.
What is left to states or to party, what is national through
party or federal through govt. We all agree who is going to
be in charge of what, so all groups get their interests protected.

Well that's where it would fail, if we take the current members and leaders to try to make it happen. Because they definitely won't want to make it happen...

Because they lose their jobs.

It will take a revolution of ideas to make this happen. And a crack in the infrastructure of the Constitution to allow it.

But I think the stages are set. Whatever happens, I'm definitely down for that 2-stage gov't idea. I think it should iterate more than 2 stages, but that is the best idea I've heard, rather than voting Rep/Dem.

But seriously, it takes Trump to make this happen.... As sad as it seems...

Dear RWS no they don't lose their jobs, the jobs would double.
For each office there would be now an internal and external office.

To afford this split, such as splitting the salary between the two,
that would mean each office holder works an outside job to support themselves
and works with the partner office to split that work.

I think that's better anywyay, and most people are making money on the side,
so this just cuts their job duties in half so they can work another job.

I've had to work two jobs to pay for damage done by govt abuses in two districts
I was trying to help recover and rebuild their community plans destroyed by govt corruption.

And with the policies passed by Congress, lots of other citizens are having to
work two part time or full time jobs because of the economic restructuring by companies to adjust as well.

So isn't it fair to ask people in govt, that if we're having to pay these costs
by working two jobs, so should they. And split the duties in half so they can manage both.

I think we could find the political leaders who already work two jobs
and can consult on public policy at the same time. Maybe that level
of leadership would rise to the top who can do the work, while
supporting themselves so they aren't a burden on taxpayers,
and don't ask citizens to work any harder than they have to!

What do you think? Shall we consult with the Greens
and Workers unions on this idea to lobby the officials
to work two jobs like everyone else has to, and start job sharing?

I definitely understand your points, but a lot of the problems we have with government, is about corruption. Forcing them to work 2 jobs, like a citizen, just opens up more opportunities for corruption.

I think what we need to weave into our government is a sense of responsibility.

Where, if you don't meet your level of responsibility, you go to jail.

Politicians should be held accountable to produce the needs of their constituents. When they don't do that, they should suffer the consequences. This is how we get corrupt people out of the system, and allow true people to succeed.

But the corruption is often very sublime, and only seen after many years.

Given the level of technology that we have, we should be able to get a pulse on the citizen rating for any particular politician.

And when they fall under a certain percentage, they should be immediately removed from office. I realize how hard that is to make true, but it is not far off in our future.

A politician cannot make bad decisions for the public for his/her personal benefit, and continue to do so for a long time. A heart-beat level of approval, may allow us to stop these people sooner, rather than later. Because that person, once approval ratings go low enough, will go to jail for 10 years.

I don't know... this is one of my ideas of how to stop corruption in the future, and it involves real-time thinking, and instant penalties for the corrupt.

I'm just throwing that out here for now, I've thought about it a lot more, but this is all I can produce on a late Sat night!

I'm glad we're both thinking this through along the same line RWS, Thanks!

Just like Ryan and others support the idea to "tie in" welfare WITH work,
the paid work these govt and citizens do can also be in consulting but on private sector solutions so that
1. there is teamwork with ALL the parties participating so we check and balance
and stop abuses and waste and CORRUPTION before it happens
2. the paid work CAN be "tied" to restitution for past abuses and wrongs.

For example, if my community complains that our local leaders misspent taxmoney
and got paid to destroy two school districts by selling them out to corporate interests and contracts,
then the money for restitution can go into creating jobs to pay mentors and consultants
to work with paid interns in these communities to repair the damage done.
the work done and money it costs to pay those community administrators and reconstruction workers
is part of the restitution for the wrongs owed to taxpayers and to that community.

This system will thus create jobs for accounting and legal staff to track the
restitution and settlement plans. And people can learn and teach from the process
so it pays for education and training.

There is more transparency and accountability when working in teams across the parties.

What Clinton's administrative and corporate entanglements show
is that when these are in a closed loop unchecked and people are
paying off each other to CYA, then there's no accountability and corruption breeds more to cover itself up.

The opposite of that is paying people to clean up the corruption.
The transparency and checks and balances needed to expose and correct
the problem are the same that is needed to supervise and implement solutions.

So the same way the problems feed on themselves and are self-perpetuating,
so are the solutions self-defining and sustainable by building a positive relationship and progression of development.

 

[Dale Smith]

Point to the place on the teddy bear where the government touched you.

Dear Lewdog:

* If the bear was made in the US where workers had vacation and employment rights and protections,
were under OSHA safety regulations, and weren't child laborers (but they could be exploited prison labor),
and if the taxes from the sale of the bear goes to city, state or federal taxes,
and might pay for helpful or abusive things, that may or may not represent the taxpayers paying in
(or if the bear is made of materials that contribute to an environmental hazard or waste that is unsustainable, and the corporation profiting is not taking that into account as part of the cost of the production and their own costs to pay)

that's different from

* a bear made by illegal slave labor, children forced to work in unsafe conditions without breaks
or seeing the outdoors or their families, working for 50 cents a day, or to pay off rent in a dorm
that costs more than they make so they stay enslaved.
* or a bear made from homegrown materials by fair trade workers where the money
stays with the community and workers and isn't channeled into a larger corporation that neglects them

But again, if it's made by prison labor exploited by others for profit,
this could take place in the US or in other countries, and could still
involve "involuntary servitude" outside the legal conditions on restitution, penalty, or deprivation of liberty for crimes.

Emily, I've worked in a prison, and inmates FIGHT for those jobs. It is something to do besides sit around watching tv all day, AND it gives them a small "nest egg" for when they are released, or if they're not getting released during their lifetimes, it is money to spend on chips and books at the commissary. "Involuntary servitude?" Unless you're talking about a very different scenario than I'm aware of, the prisoners LOVE those jobs.

Dear OldLady
1. Are the workers keeping the income from their own labor?
There needs to be accountability of what are the costs of restitution they owe proportionally for crimes,
and what are their costs. And make sure they are working off their own debt so they have goals
and can track progress.
2. Are they working for private corporations that are using cheap prison labor to profit others?
This is what I heard was going on. (previously I heard that phone companies were caught abusing prison labor to do sales or service calls, now I've heard high end dept stores use prison labor to make their goods, and one
activist told me of a unit where the inmates are being abused and enslaved even trafficked there and he
wants to free them from that mess.)

3. IF THERE IS ABUSE GOING ON that could count as "racketeering" or trafficking of labor under RICO
why not allow these abuse victims to TAKE BACK the prison programs as restitution
and turn it into microlending and business building where they learn management skills
and the money DOES go into paying off restitution they owe and paying their costs
instead of paying private profit?

Just police it and make sure it isn't being exploited, but is run more like a "work-study" program
where inmates are treated equally as students who can pay for their education and housing by working onsite
like a campus.

Why not turn sweatshops and prisons into schools and make sure the labor is managed safely without abuses:
www.rightsfortheworkers.org

At the prison I worked at, the prisoners kept their money except if they owed restitution or other court fines, at which point a percentage is taken from their earnings to pay those. That helped them when released, since they didn't get out with huge fines hanging over their heads. I don't know about any of the other things you bring up. Thank you for the suggestions, but I will tell you realistically tax payers are willing to contribute squat to prisoners. Around here many were absolutely incensed that they are even allowed tv's. The feds have insisted on work ready programs to help prisoners leave there employable, but the funds to back it up are scant and the personnel to carry out these programs are just not available due to "cost saving measures" over the years. Good ideas, though.

86 percent of the prison population committed a victim-less crime and simply violated an act, statute or code of USA.INC because we do not have a republic anymore...it was lost in 1933 ( but that is another story in of it's self). The alleged "land of the free" has the highest prison population in the world and why is that? Because this corporate "gubermint" wants access to your bond i.e "birth certificate" that was monetized when you were born and assigned a value. The "gubermint" is the trustee of that bond. The drug problem in this country is perpetuated by the fact that the CIA (working on conjunction with drug lords) actually bring drugs into this country. Lab grade LSD was put on the streets by a CIA operation. All of this is fact and easily verified. Prison labor is lave labor and since USA.INC owns the controlling shares in every Fortune 500 corporation, free labor pads their bottom line.

 

[RWS]

Emily, I agree with what you say, but... what's the next step?

How do we get a better world?

 

[RWS]

I posted something for fun on another thread, and i said that "anyone who votes for either candidate in this election should not be allowed to vote again". (or something like that)

But after thinking about it, it's true!

We don't want anybody who actually votes for either party in this election to ever have any sort of control of our future!

Their voting privileges should be revoked, for participating in such a joke.

They don't deserve to vote, going forward...

 

[emilynghiem]

Point to the place on the teddy bear where the government touched you.

Dear Lewdog:

* If the bear was made in the US where workers had vacation and employment rights and protections,
were under OSHA safety regulations, and weren't child laborers (but they could be exploited prison labor),
and if the taxes from the sale of the bear goes to city, state or federal taxes,
and might pay for helpful or abusive things, that may or may not represent the taxpayers paying in
(or if the bear is made of materials that contribute to an environmental hazard or waste that is unsustainable, and the corporation profiting is not taking that into account as part of the cost of the production and their own costs to pay)

that's different from

* a bear made by illegal slave labor, children forced to work in unsafe conditions without breaks
or seeing the outdoors or their families, working for 50 cents a day, or to pay off rent in a dorm
that costs more than they make so they stay enslaved.
* or a bear made from homegrown materials by fair trade workers where the money
stays with the community and workers and isn't channeled into a larger corporation that neglects them

But again, if it's made by prison labor exploited by others for profit,
this could take place in the US or in other countries, and could still
involve "involuntary servitude" outside the legal conditions on restitution, penalty, or deprivation of liberty for crimes.

Emily, I've worked in a prison, and inmates FIGHT for those jobs. It is something to do besides sit around watching tv all day, AND it gives them a small "nest egg" for when they are released, or if they're not getting released during their lifetimes, it is money to spend on chips and books at the commissary. "Involuntary servitude?" Unless you're talking about a very different scenario than I'm aware of, the prisoners LOVE those jobs.

Dear OldLady
1. Are the workers keeping the income from their own labor?
There needs to be accountability of what are the costs of restitution they owe proportionally for crimes,
and what are their costs. And make sure they are working off their own debt so they have goals
and can track progress.
2. Are they working for private corporations that are using cheap prison labor to profit others?
This is what I heard was going on. (previously I heard that phone companies were caught abusing prison labor to do sales or service calls, now I've heard high end dept stores use prison labor to make their goods, and one
activist told me of a unit where the inmates are being abused and enslaved even trafficked there and he
wants to free them from that mess.)

3. IF THERE IS ABUSE GOING ON that could count as "racketeering" or trafficking of labor under RICO
why not allow these abuse victims to TAKE BACK the prison programs as restitution
and turn it into microlending and business building where they learn management skills
and the money DOES go into paying off restitution they owe and paying their costs
instead of paying private profit?

Just police it and make sure it isn't being exploited, but is run more like a "work-study" program
where inmates are treated equally as students who can pay for their education and housing by working onsite
like a campus.

Why not turn sweatshops and prisons into schools and make sure the labor is managed safely without abuses:
www.rightsfortheworkers.org

At the prison I worked at, the prisoners kept their money except if they owed restitution or other court fines, at which point a percentage is taken from their earnings to pay those. That helped them when released, since they didn't get out with huge fines hanging over their heads. I don't know about any of the other things you bring up. Thank you for the suggestions, but I will tell you realistically tax payers are willing to contribute squat to prisoners. Around here many were absolutely incensed that they are even allowed tv's. The feds have insisted on work ready programs to help prisoners leave there employable, but the funds to back it up are scant and the personnel to carry out these programs are just not available due to "cost saving measures" over the years. Good ideas, though.

86 percent of the prison population committed a victim-less crime and simply violated an act, statute or code of USA.INC because we do not have a republic anymore...it was lost in 1933 ( but that is another story in of it's self). The alleged "land of the free" has the highest prison population in the world and why is that? Because this corporate "gubermint" wants access to your bond i.e "birth certificate" that was monetized when you were born and assigned a value. The "gubermint" is the trustee of that bond. The drug problem in this country is perpetuated by the fact that the CIA (working on conjunction with drug lords) actually bring drugs into this country. Lab grade LSD was put on the streets by a CIA operation. All of this is fact and easily verified. Prison labor is lave labor and since USA.INC owns the controlling shares in every Fortune 500 corporation, free labor pads their bottom line.

Dear Dale Smith and RWS
I think you just asked and answered the next question, on where to start.
I say we start by petitioning key leaders in the Democratic party to fulfill the long
promised party platform of reforming prisons while creating sustainable affordable health care for all.

We write out a resolution in support of lawmakers
converting the prisons into medical schools clinics and supervised training and research
facilities and programs for TREATING mental and criminal illness instead of merely punishing it.

That way over time the resources spent on failed criminal and mental facilities
can go into medial training research and programs.

We pay for health care with the budgets we are currently wasting on criminal systems we all agree are not working.

How about that?

Instead of paying 50K a year per person trapped in a cycle of poverty welfare and inability to work for a living,
we pay 30K for a mentor and 20K for an intern to assist each inmate to become self sufficient.
After they get the 50K loan to invest in their business plans educating training and mentoring,
they can pay it back to pay for the next partnership. And the resident client becomes the next
intern, and the trained intern becomes the next mentor. So they learn to move up in responsibilities
and heip the next person. So we have a revolving school system to produce graduates
instead of a revolving door to nowhere.

 

[RWS]

I'm not gonna argue anything, until I understand our 2 gov theory first.

I really like that idea! I will be working on it in my mind!

 

[emilynghiem]

I'm not gonna argue anything, until I understand our 2 gov theory first.

I really like that idea! I will be working on it in my mind!

Dear RWS How about a training track and internal mirror of the external govt.

So one is used for "soft" programs that only affect state-federal and citizens internally.
We can use that track to train leaders and test out new programs per state
(or nationally through party where it's optional to fund and participate to troubleshoot
the new proposed model program being tested). So this doesn't affect the public policy
that govt and people are responsible for funding through mandatory taxes. That is
reserved for tested and working reform proposals that states/people have agreed to fund as public.

Where people DON't agree on what health care or gun policy to go with,
the parties test out their proposals through their own networks of
internal management and reps per state (or nationally if it's a federal proposal
which I assume they'd test after it passes the state testing level).

The advantages are
1. we can have a chance to prove a process works using people who SUPPORT it not trying to make it fail, and we can invest our own resources in it without fighting with others
2. we have means of training new leaders and interns, so minorities and women
have a place to start to prove their experience at any level of govt from city to federal
3. we can reward people with taxbreaks for investments or loans, or use restitution for past wrongs and abuses to finance the corrective reforms, so there is financial benefit to reward effective efforts in developing sustainable solutions
4. we can stop this business of trying to impose our beliefs in one way or another,
prove it works first, and allow people to voluntarily participate or elect to adopt
working models into state or federal govt AFTER they've proven to work not before which causes fights

both parties can try different models simultaneously by offering to their members,
or they can take turns microlending into the other party's program by free choice.

lots of ways we can make this work

for each model or each problem the parties or states take on,
they may structure it differently. that's part of the value, to encourage
and reward leaders for consulting with each other to come up with
a model that works for their situation, not fight to dictate answers not proven yet.

 

[RWS]

I'm your new best friend!

I love your ideas!

So the next question is, how to implement them. I mean, there are still very many questions about how this can all work, but given that, how do we get the current system to accept the new system?

 

[18 and Life]

Hey, guys. We scared off the kid.

been here all along lurking... You scared off no-one not even 'the kid' as the OldLady calls me... Just been watching each and every question and response... still evaluating each forum member and their logic and their motivation. It (their motivation) comes through whether they want it to or not....
Love all you people on both sides though.! I hope we are all wanting what's best for our country, constitution, and it's citizens.
The USA's legal citizens. Right? That's who we are wanting the best for right? That is an issue in my mind as I live in a bordering state and deal with crime from illegals that keep our local jail full and my own classmates that some of them can't even pass English classes because they can't speak or understand it but the teachers pass them anyway... what the heck is up with that?
Anyways. Still here Old Lady... keep trying though

 

[RWS]

I live in Phx.

There are no sides in reality.

Only sides in what your mind makes.

 

[18 and Life]

I live in Phx.

There are no sides in reality.

Only what your mind makes.

Well, I have a friend in the hospital right now there in Glendale (if you know where that is) from being attacked/mugged by a teenage mexican gang...
I kinda think that there are or might be sides in his 'mind' as you say or his viewpoint as he lies there in ICU... or what would you call it? Maybe we are calling the same thing something different... Or maybe not.

 

[WheelieAddict]

Graduating this up-coming year (yay!) and want to try and understand this thing we call our government...
Here to learn!

This forum is not the place to learn about government.

 

[WheelieAddict]

U.S. Government and Politics Study Guides - SparkNotes