Hey lefties, prove that capitalism got us into this mess.

[Liberty]

Seriously. Prove it. From everything I have seen, it is corporatism that is the problem, not free markets.

 

[Old_Liberal]

Call it what you want, but what got us, and the world into this mess is simple. Bank deregulation that allowed too big to fail banks to come into existence and the deregs that allowed for these exotic instruments of profit.

We traded a sound banking system that never caused a crash and recession, for one that allowed for greater profits in banking. The reason we regulated banks in the first place was to avoid crashes, that were common pre 1929, large bank failures, panics, etc.

The trade off for higher bank profits was the loss of soundness, and this aint rocket science.

When institutions used to hold their loans instead of selling them off to be bundled they were a helluva lot more careful on who they gave credit to.

The high unemployment and high underemployment problem is nothing more than a reflection of what happens when corporations are allowed to off shore american jobs.

This is the big picture which the media never mentions. The middle class is doomed, and the financial led crashes are not over.

You unfetter capitalism and it moves to cheap labor and deregulates banking. Offshoring is capitalism, in its worst flavor.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

No one said it did.

It was a lack of regulation, having noting to do with ‘capitalism’ per se.

Capitalism is an excellent system, but not perfect – nothing is. Appropriate oversight is needed to mitigate capitalism’s inherent risk.

A pragmatic approach is best, a blend of pubic and private sectors – to adhere blindly to a given economic dogma, left or right, will only result in disaster.

 

[Liberty]

Really, CJ? Really?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sixthworld/6349727675/

Tell me most of the OWSers don't think like the message this sign has.

 

[HUGGY]

prove that capitalism got us into this mess.


Stupid question. Of course it was some aspects of "capitalism" that got us into this mess because that is the economic system we live with.

What you need to do is stop being such a willfully ignorant tool and be honest in researching the answer to your question/statement.

In short form what caused the mess is that banks changed what they did and how they made money over the last twenty plus years from just acting as depositories of savings and making safe loans based on those savings. The regs changed to allow banks to act as speculators leveraging "investments" by upwards of 30-40 to one. During these decades the speed of banking dramatically increased also so much of the speculation was on a day to day basis. As long as the bubble kept growing, which was a rediculous assumption on their part, there was no sign of danger and being banks with funds protected by the fed they all shared a false sense of security. When you are essentially buying stocks a dime on 4 dollars and the stock prices keep going up there are fortunes to be made. The risk is that in that environment one is forced to pay losses the next business day with cash. When a critical point of a downturn or bubble burst occurs there just isn't enough capital to cover the losses and even a big name bank can go tits up if they can't cover.

So yes...unregulated capitalism is the system that allowed these risks to be taken and the crash to occur.

 

[Liberty]

prove that capitalism got us into this mess.


Stupid question. Of course it was some aspects of "capitalism" that got us into this mess because that is the economic system we live with.

What you need to do is stop being such a willfully ignorant tool and be honest in researching the answer to your question/statement.

In short form what caused the mess is that banks changed what they did and how they made money over the last twenty plus years from just acting as depositories of savings and making safe loans based on those savings. The regs changed to allow banks to act as speculators leveraging "investments" by upwards of 30-40 to one. During these decades the speed of banking dramatically increased also so much of the speculation was on a day to day basis. As long as the bubble kept growing, which was a rediculous assumption on their part, there was no sign of danger and being banks with funds protected by the fed they all shared a false sense of security. When you are essentially buying stocks a dime on 4 dollars and the stock prices keep going up there are fortunes to be made. The risk is that in that environment one is forced to pay losses the next business day with cash. When a critical point of a downturn or bubble burst occurs there just isn't enough capital to cover the losses and even a big name bank can go tits up if they can't cover.

So yes...unregulated capitalism is the system that allowed these risks to be taken and the crash to occur.

i stopped reading at "economic system we live with." are you sure? Find me a definition of capitalism that allows the government to throw money at businesses to ensure their success.

 

[Oddball]

No one said it did.

It was a lack of regulation, having noting to do with ‘capitalism’ per se.

Total bullshit.

Capitalism is an excellent system, but not perfect – nothing is. Appropriate oversight is needed to mitigate capitalism’s inherent risk.

A pragmatic approach is best, a blend of pubic and private sectors – to adhere blindly to a given economic dogma, left or right, will only result in disaster.

Totally vapid platitudes.

 

[Wiseacre]

It's not a lack of regulation, we've had plenty of that for quite awhile. More precisely it's ineffective regulation, although I wouldn't stop there. There's other factors involved, but I think it comes down to poor governance.

 

[HUGGY]

prove that capitalism got us into this mess.


Stupid question. Of course it was some aspects of "capitalism" that got us into this mess because that is the economic system we live with.

What you need to do is stop being such a willfully ignorant tool and be honest in researching the answer to your question/statement.

In short form what caused the mess is that banks changed what they did and how they made money over the last twenty plus years from just acting as depositories of savings and making safe loans based on those savings. The regs changed to allow banks to act as speculators leveraging "investments" by upwards of 30-40 to one. During these decades the speed of banking dramatically increased also so much of the speculation was on a day to day basis. As long as the bubble kept growing, which was a rediculous assumption on their part, there was no sign of danger and being banks with funds protected by the fed they all shared a false sense of security. When you are essentially buying stocks a dime on 4 dollars and the stock prices keep going up there are fortunes to be made. The risk is that in that environment one is forced to pay losses the next business day with cash. When a critical point of a downturn or bubble burst occurs there just isn't enough capital to cover the losses and even a big name bank can go tits up if they can't cover.

So yes...unregulated capitalism is the system that allowed these risks to be taken and the crash to occur.

i stopped reading at "economic system we live with." are you sure? Find me a definition of capitalism that allows the government to throw money at businesses to ensure their success.

Look up "Crony Capitalism"...similar to fascism. It was the K-Street boys working for the banks writing the new laws and passed by congress that created the dangerous environment that eventually collapsed. The original intent of the laws that allowed the bailouts was the FDIC. Yours and my government passed legislation that allowed the transformation of an intelligent backstop to a catch all safety net for any wild hairbrained scheme a banker could dream up such as those pesky derivitives. So when it comes right down to it ...it is really our own fault for putting ourselves and the world at risk by putting theives and idiots at the helm with our votes. Elections have consequences.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

prove that capitalism got us into this mess

That isn't possible. We don't have capitalism here.

 

[Liberty]

prove that capitalism got us into this mess.


Stupid question. Of course it was some aspects of "capitalism" that got us into this mess because that is the economic system we live with.

What you need to do is stop being such a willfully ignorant tool and be honest in researching the answer to your question/statement.

In short form what caused the mess is that banks changed what they did and how they made money over the last twenty plus years from just acting as depositories of savings and making safe loans based on those savings. The regs changed to allow banks to act as speculators leveraging "investments" by upwards of 30-40 to one. During these decades the speed of banking dramatically increased also so much of the speculation was on a day to day basis. As long as the bubble kept growing, which was a rediculous assumption on their part, there was no sign of danger and being banks with funds protected by the fed they all shared a false sense of security. When you are essentially buying stocks a dime on 4 dollars and the stock prices keep going up there are fortunes to be made. The risk is that in that environment one is forced to pay losses the next business day with cash. When a critical point of a downturn or bubble burst occurs there just isn't enough capital to cover the losses and even a big name bank can go tits up if they can't cover.

So yes...unregulated capitalism is the system that allowed these risks to be taken and the crash to occur.

i stopped reading at "economic system we live with." are you sure? Find me a definition of capitalism that allows the government to throw money at businesses to ensure their success.

Look up "Crony Capitalism"...similar to fascism. It was the K-Street boys working for the banks writing the new laws and passed by congress that created the dangerous environment that eventually collapsed. The original intent of the laws that allowed the bailouts was the FDIC. Yours and my government passed legislation that allowed the transformation of an intelligent backstop to a catch all safety net for any wild hairbrained scheme a banker could dream up such as those pesky derivitives. So when it comes right down to it ...it is really our own fault for putting ourselves and the world at risk by putting theives and idiots at the helm with our votes. Elections have consequences.

So, your argument is that crony capitalism = capitalism?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

the term "crony capitalism" has to go. It is grossly misleading to the facts.

 

[Liberty]

the term "crony capitalism" has to go. It is grossly misleading to the facts.

yes, the correct term is corporatism, i agree.

 

[Dragon]

Seriously. Prove it. From everything I have seen, it is corporatism that is the problem, not free markets.

You seem to have a problem with definitions. Corporatism = capitalism. "Free market" is an oxymoron, and "free market capitalism" even more of one.

Of course, you can posit some pie-in-the-sky ideal-world visionary economic system if you want and call that "capitalism," but if the word is to refer to anything in the real world, then it has to refer to what exists or historically has existed.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Seriously. Prove it. From everything I have seen, it is corporatism that is the problem, not free markets.

The housing crisis:

1) much of the liberal Federal Government was organized to get people into homes the Republican free market said they could not afford. Who can say with a straight face that this idiotic liberalism did not cause the crisis.

2) THe Federal Reserve deliberately inflated the money supply or reduced interest rates to bubble up the housing industry and thereby goose the economy. Who can say with a straight face that this liberal intervention in the Republican free market did not greatly contribute to the crisis.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Corporatism = capitalism. .

1) capitalism is all about private voluntary exchanges.

2) Corporatrism, socialism, liberalism, communism, Nazism, and fascism is when you have a powerful liberal government that everyone uses to avoid the free market.

 

[Liberty]

Seriously. Prove it. From everything I have seen, it is corporatism that is the problem, not free markets.

You seem to have a problem with definitions. Corporatism = capitalism. "Free market" is an oxymoron, and "free market capitalism" even more of one.

Of course, you can posit some pie-in-the-sky ideal-world visionary economic system if you want and call that "capitalism," but if the word is to refer to anything in the real world, then it has to refer to what exists or historically has existed.

actually, corporatism is when government uses tax money to pick winners and losers in the market either for corporate benefits and bribes, or to get into the industry for political motivation. in a capitalist economy, market forces such as supply and demand ensure quality of goods and services. you sir, have the problem with definitions.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Call it what you want, but what got us, and the world into this mess is simple. Bank deregulation that allowed too big to fail banks to come into existence and the deregs that allowed for these exotic instruments of profit.

.

of course thats goofy. All agree that liberal Fanny Freddie and the liberal Federal Reserve caused it. Who can say with a straight face they were not at the heart of it???

 

[TakeAStepBack]

This discussion always ends the exact same way. Complete misunderstanding of the facts.

I had to post the definitions in a previous thread and then it of course, died.

Liberty is right and anyone that doesn't understand economics and free market laissez-faire capitalism, will continue to equate corporatism and cronyism, as capitalism. Should I bother again, or should we watch the less informed for a while longer flail around in complete ignorance?

This is why we will keep breaking it until there isn't anything left to break.

They don't call it a race to the bottom for nothing.

 

[HUGGY]

i stopped reading at "economic system we live with." are you sure? Find me a definition of capitalism that allows the government to throw money at businesses to ensure their success.

Look up "Crony Capitalism"...similar to fascism. It was the K-Street boys working for the banks writing the new laws and passed by congress that created the dangerous environment that eventually collapsed. The original intent of the laws that allowed the bailouts was the FDIC. Yours and my government passed legislation that allowed the transformation of an intelligent backstop to a catch all safety net for any wild hairbrained scheme a banker could dream up such as those pesky derivitives. So when it comes right down to it ...it is really our own fault for putting ourselves and the world at risk by putting theives and idiots at the helm with our votes. Elections have consequences.

So, your argument is that crony capitalism = capitalism?

No, they are not interchangable. Capitalism is a broad catagory with many flavors within the heading. Just as Communism is many kinds of socialism, Capitalism is more of a general means of supply and demand and the engine that drives it. Communism is also a supply and demand system ...it just has a very strict delivery system.

Crony Capitalism is about access to the rule makers by lobbiests that bribe and worm their way into positions to game the system in favor of a few at the peril of those not fortunate enough to be on the inside of the game.