Herman Cains plan? 9-9-9 For those that hate it

[chikenwing]

Pimp Daddy's 999 plan will put more money in the hands of Cain’s Government and in the hand of Fat Cats. Designed to give tax breaks to Fat Cats and hurt the elderly, poor and minorities. Elderly who has paid their dues will have to once again pay taxes. Back door raising taxes.

Pimp Daddy ??? what its designed to do is get some heads turned and win an election,drop one of those "9" and he has something.

 

[rightwinger]

1. 9+9 is far less than I'm taxed now with only the income tax.

Congrats. Does this include the tax increase of the new 9.1% sales tax?



But surely you don't think people should have to pay taxes to the point of starvation? If you make less than $20K a year, should you pay 9% income tax + 9% sales tax?

3. I own a small business and would welcome the stability of a tax plan like this. A flat rate is something that can easily be incorporated into the cost of doing business.

How much would you be paying under the 9-9-9 plan? Keep in mind that you can't deduct the expense of labor or for purchases of any products made outside the United States. There's no word yet whether gasoline costs will be deductible since it's impossible to tell where the oil came from. Let's just say they're not. If you have a supplier, let's assume that supplier will pass the cost of transportation on to you.

I'm not sure what you do, so I don't want to assume too much. I don't know if you provide goods or services. I apologize if it's too personal to ask what your business takes in. On a side note, how many more people will you hire if your tax rate was 9% off the income minus the few deductions?

Edit: There's also a risk of a trade war igniting over Cain's plan. At the very least, it would violate WTO rules.

YOU need to get out of the box of thinking of the OLD system. I know it's hard for some of you...but at least try?

Out of the box? Sounds so liberal of you

Except for the part where you jack up taxes on the working poor so you can provide tax cuts to the wealthy. Conservatives have been in that box for 30 years

 

[BenNatuf]

5 pages and still no coherent dissent from the left beyond its too simple and can't work. You guys are lookin pretty sad.

Form a real argument and hit me with it.

How about one from the right?

1. The idea of having both a sales tax and an income tax simultaneously at a federal level should be anethema to conservatives. Unless of course the idea of instituting new taxes is now in vogue.

2. Regardless of whether or not its "fair" which is a strictly liberal argument about taxes it will increase the tax burden on just about everyone from the middle of the middle class and below. It won't have much effect on those up to about upper middle class level and will be a major tax cut for those above that. I don't want to increase taxes on ANYBODY, which is what I thought being "conservative" entailed.

3. The "Flat business tax" may as well be called the small business destruction act, as excluding COL from allowable deductions from revenue will result in a MAJOR tax increase for small business' that have most of their revenue invested in labor.

4. How is charging people in detroit (empowerment zones) less in federal taxes than people in charlotte a "good thing"? By what constitutional mechanism does the federal government have any power to change the tax rates for people based on thier geography?

5. Since the courts have found that for business' income=profit, how does excluding costs like COL from the deductable computation from revenue to figure profit, and therefor income, square constitutionally?

9-9-9 is 9-9-nonsence. It is not well thought out, it is not a good plan, and it is not "conservative" in any way. I do support reform for broader, flatter and lower tax rates, I will not support any "change" and "hope" for the best because I don't like the current system, thats what happened in 2008 and so far... it ain't worked out real well.

So just keep applying bandaids to a patient already in a full body cast?

as opposed to voting for change and hoping it's good?

yeah, i got this whole issue with that hopey changey thing.

The plan is not good, it is in fact worse than what we now have. If it is complete as cain claims, it is not well thought out as he asserts. If it is not complete, then it can't be well thought out. Either way this plan is crap.

Beheading the patient won't do them any good.

 

[candycorn]

So because someone says it won't work and then tops it off with Cain is an idiot that's clueless I'm suddenly supposed to change my mind?

Fail hard friend.

I gave you circumstances under which the tax could be adjusted to protect the indigent. Try again?

I may have missed your answer:

If you accept the GOP narrative that 47% of Americans pay no federal income tax, wouldn't this 9-9-9 plan then represent a tax increase on the 150,000,000+ Americans who currently supposedly are getting a free ride from Uncle Sam?

Don't mean to be redundant...but I didn't see where you answered that question from
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/189503-herman-cains-plan-9-9-9-for-those-that-hate-it-4.html#post4272396

Yes it would be technically. Finally everyone would contribute to the support of our nation rather than reaping the rewards paid for by the other half. And yes I did answer a question similar to yours earlier.

I apologize.

So there is a tax increase on the poor who currently, if you believe the rhetoric, pay zero dollars of federal income tax.

Next question. This tax increase is in addition to any state and local sales taxes that are being paid right? The new federal sales tax is not going to replace local and state sales taxes, are they? What about State income taxes...will the 9-9-9 plan replace State income taxes?

 

[pgm]

YOU need to get out of the box of thinking of the OLD system. I know it's hard for some of you...but at least try?

The system isn't different enough that the old rules don't apply. Especially the international rules, which won't be changed.

Read the op before you blindly attack. I clearly said their should be a trigger point to protect the indigent.

As far as my business goes I sell and install home remodeling products. At this point without all the details of its implimentation its hard to say exactly how the outcome will turn out. But I for one will not jump the gun and make broad based assumptions beyond the fact that this is a good starting point for "REAL" change.

I wasn't attacking. I did read the opening post; I just wanted to ask you some questions about Cain's plan as it is written now because you said you were a small business owner.

On the opening post:
1) What would a good trigger point be? Cain also talks about his plan being revenue neutral, so would it have to be a 9.5/10-10-10 plan if you keep some kind of minimum deduction.
2) Exempting food from sales tax makes sense, but there are quite a lot of other living expenses. I guess poor people don't need new clothes, but poor kids do need school supplies, etc.
3) Wouldn't that be better if there was no black market in the first place?
4) OK.
5) Makes sense. What about other meds? A lot of it is tax free (depending on the state).
6) That would be good. But some deductions are a lot more worthy than others--primarily the cost of labor.
7) A flat 9% isn't asking for payment on ability or status. It's fairer in the sense that it's flatter, but it doesn't ask for money based on ability to pay.

OK, I think I addressed that. Now, I'll go into my primary criticism of Cain's 9-9-9 plan. It would be a disaster for many companies. It would be a disaster in that businesses that lose money would have to pay 9% tax (minus the cost of purchases). It would absolutely increase layoffs in all but the biggest companies. Most small businesses would see their income tax rate go down, but their actual taxes paid go up since they couldn't deduct most of the cost of doing business. It would be a disaster for American manufacturers that either buy raw materials/technology from overseas or sell products overseas.

I agree with the idea of completely overhauling the tax code. I just don't like 9-9-9 how it is presently constructed. Here's a fact to partially support Cain's plan in a different form--the U.S. has one of the highest corporate tax rates nominally, but collects one of the smallest amounts of revenue as a percentage of GDP since most of the corporate taxes can be deducted. Clearly that means that there are distortionary taxes and tax breaks in the code that need to be removed. General Electric, oil companies and many more exploit breaks that smaller companies cannot.

Are your home remodeling products made in the U.S. or overseas? (I keep hammering this one aspect of Cain's plan because I find it to be a shallow appeal to "buy American" populism that's just plain dumb. What scares me more about the dumb aspects of Cain's plan is that everything I know about the guy makes me think that he isn't dumb.)

 

[candycorn]

Can we start a discussion on what we're getting for 9-9-9? I'm really trying to understand it from the gut level. The website, of course, says it solves a lot of problems--what do you expect.

What are WE getting for 9-9-9? The status quo of services? Increased services? Decreased services? If so, what are going to be the additions/cutbacks under 9-9-9. If we're talking massive cuts in Military R&D and shelving new weapons systems, I'm all ears.

I'd like to hear from Cain supporters especially so I'm not getting the warts-only assessment.

 

[Full-Auto]

Pimp Daddy's 999 plan will put more money in the hands of Cain’s Government and in the hand of Fat Cats. Designed to give tax breaks to Fat Cats and hurt the elderly, poor and minorities. Elderly who has paid their dues will have to once again pay taxes. Back door raising taxes.

LOL AS if you have any credibility, Especially being democrat.

 

[Mad Scientist]

First lets start off by admiting the obvious.......... Cain actually has a plan. For better or for worse he has a plan. What do the others have?

If I had a plan to enslave your entire family would you praise it and say; "At least HE has a plan!"

 

[pgm]

Can we start a discussion on what we're getting for 9-9-9? I'm really trying to understand it from the gut level. The website, of course, says it solves a lot of problems--what do you expect.

What are WE getting for 9-9-9? The status quo of services? Increased services? Decreased services? If so, what are going to be the additions/cutbacks under 9-9-9. If we're talking massive cuts in Military R&D and shelving new weapons systems, I'm all ears.

Military R&D creates some impressive technological leaps and bounds. It just needs better oversight to scrap out-of-date or way-over-budget projects (unless we can sell all of those to Israel).

As for the services, it's supposed to be status quo since Cain says his plan is revenue neutral at 9.1/9.1/9.1. Others say the math doesn't add up, but I'm sure we can tinker with the rates a bit to get a revenue neutral proposal (10/10/10? 10.5/10.5/9?)

 

[Cuyo]

5 pages and still no coherent dissent from the left beyond its too simple and can't work. You guys are lookin pretty sad.

Form a real argument and hit me with it.

:Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh:

it would be the most regressive tax in history; It wouldn't raise enough revenue; He has not the slightest fucking clue how he would even begin to implement it... et al, et al..

But I'm telling you, it would be much more productive to show you that it's a pathetic, gimmicky joke that's not really worthy of debate.

So because someone says it won't work and then tops it off with Cain is an idiot that's clueless I'm suddenly supposed to change my mind?

Fail hard friend.

I gave you circumstances under which the tax could be adjusted to protect the indigent. Try again?

No, no, I don't need to try again. Although you've addressed nothing that I've said, you did tell me that 'I fail,' so that's pretty much the end of the debate, isn't it?

 

[Full-Auto]

First lets start off by admiting the obvious.......... Cain actually has a plan. For better or for worse he has a plan. What do the others have?

If I had a plan to enslave your entire family would you praise it and say; "At least HE has a plan!"

Enslave? Still paying too much?

 

[BenNatuf]

5 pages and still no coherent dissent from the left beyond its too simple and can't work. You guys are lookin pretty sad.

Form a real argument and hit me with it.

How about one from the right?

1. The idea of having both a sales tax and an income tax simultaneously at a federal level should be anethema to conservatives. Unless of course the idea of instituting new taxes is now in vogue.

2. Regardless of whether or not its "fair" which is a strictly liberal argument about taxes it will increase the tax burden on just about everyone from the middle of the middle class and below. It won't have much effect on those up to about upper middle class level and will be a major tax cut for those above that. I don't want to increase taxes on ANYBODY, which is what I thought being "conservative" entailed.

3. The "Flat business tax" may as well be called the small business destruction act, as excluding COL from allowable deductions from revenue will result in a MAJOR tax increase for small business' that have most of their revenue invested in labor.

4. How is charging people in detroit (empowerment zones) less in federal taxes than people in charlotte a "good thing"? By what constitutional mechanism does the federal government have any power to change the tax rates for people based on thier geography?

5. Since the courts have found that for business' income=profit, how does excluding costs like COL from the deductable computation from revenue to figure profit, and therefor income, square constitutionally?

9-9-9 is 9-9-nonsence. It is not well thought out, it is not a good plan, and it is not "conservative" in any way. I do support reform for broader, flatter and lower tax rates, I will not support any "change" and "hope" for the best because I don't like the current system, thats what happened in 2008 and so far... it ain't worked out real well.

1. 9+9 is far less than I'm taxed now with only the income tax.

this is about the nation, not about you.

family of 4 earning 40K standard deductions.

pays in about 3K in payroll taxes and after exemptions, and deductions pays taxes on an AGI of about 20K resulting in aproximately 2.5K in taxes owed for a total tax bill of around 5.5K. After credits that total is likely in the 2K to 3K range. They are tax payors.

family of 4 under 9-9-9 earning 40K

total flat tax of 3.6K bringing the net down to around 36K and then a 9% sales tax when they purchase items which at 40K would likely make them paycheck to paycheck and they would spend at minimum 90% of thier net resulting in an additional tax burden of around 2.7K for a total tax bill of 6.3K. An increase in totatl taxes for thm of right arond 100%.

This sounds like a good p0lan to you?

Average small business has a net of around 10%, so on 1M in revenue they net out 10% or 100K. Since most of these business' are LLC's, subs, proprietorships or partnerships they pay their taxes at the personal level, meaning a family of 4 pays thier tax on an AGI of about 80K after deductions and credits. This results in a tax bill of around 20K

same company and family under the business flat tax (and personal flat tax)

1M in revenue resulting in a 10% real net but you are taxed on that plus the COL (which is not deductable under the 9-9-9 plan) which for most small business is about 60% of revenue. That of course includes current payroll taxes so you can subtract that portion of payroll and say COL is 52% (we'll make it 50% for simplicity) So your taxable income is no longer 100K, but 600K. Your 9% flat tax on that 700K is 54K, thats a 34K tax increase on your revenue. (still sound good?). Now lets convert the business' revenue into you personal income when you pay yourself. You got 44K left (instead of the 100K you had before) and the tax on that is about 4K. You are now as much paycheck to paycheck as your employees so your going to be paying a 9% sales tax on most of the remaining ammount making your total personal tax bill another 6.5K on top of the 54K your business allready paid.

2. Of course its an increase on the lower half that currently pay no taxes. And I'm not sure how you consider yourself a conservative if you don't think everyone should bare the responsibility of contributing to our society.

a simple flat tax or graduated flat tax on all income above poverty level would be much better. maybe it would have to be 14or 15%, but that would be very much better than this 9-9-nonsence.

3. I own a small business and would welcome the stability of a tax plan like this. A flat rate is something that can easily be incorporated into the cost of doing business.

when you figure out how to incorporate paying a 9% incometax on the COL into your profit let me know.

4. What does this shit have to do with 9-9-9?

you apparently haven't read it. You may want to go to Cain's website and actually do that... look at empowerment zones, cause that where the COL for your business will be able to be deducted from revenue.

5. Couldn't care less what some court says. Congress passes laws not our courts. A judgement based on previous tax law would be null.

LOL... too funny. No dude, has nothing to do with any previous law, for business profit=income. You deduct costs (like COL) from your revenue to figure tyour profit. 9-9-9 disallows COL as a deduction, it taxes it, it therefor is taxing something other than "profit" which according to the SCOTUS would be unconstitutional under the 16th amendment..

 

[Avorysuds]

It's over, you crazy shallow Cain supporters better get used to it. Cain's rabid angry supporters are making Republicans looks truly stupid.

 

[Full-Auto]

It's over, you crazy shallow Cain supporters better get used to it. Cain's rabid angry supporters are making Republicans looks truly stupid.

Could you post a link to these rabid cain supporters please.

 

[BenNatuf]

1. 9+9 is far less than I'm taxed now with only the income tax.

Congrats. Does this include the tax increase of the new 9.1% sales tax?



But surely you don't think people should have to pay taxes to the point of starvation? If you make less than $20K a year, should you pay 9% income tax + 9% sales tax?

3. I own a small business and would welcome the stability of a tax plan like this. A flat rate is something that can easily be incorporated into the cost of doing business.

How much would you be paying under the 9-9-9 plan? Keep in mind that you can't deduct the expense of labor or for purchases of any products made outside the United States. There's no word yet whether gasoline costs will be deductible since it's impossible to tell where the oil came from. Let's just say they're not. If you have a supplier, let's assume that supplier will pass the cost of transportation on to you.

I'm not sure what you do, so I don't want to assume too much. I don't know if you provide goods or services. I apologize if it's too personal to ask what your business takes in. On a side note, how many more people will you hire if your tax rate was 9% off the income minus the few deductions?

Edit: There's also a risk of a trade war igniting over Cain's plan. At the very least, it would violate WTO rules.

YOU need to get out of the box of thinking of the OLD system. I know it's hard for some of you...but at least try?

Oh. I'm way, way out of the box buddy. What i suggest is that you actually research the plan, it's on Cains website, and then actually DO SOME THINKING about what the ramifications of this simplistic marketting scam would be on taxes.

 

[Cuyo]

It's over, you crazy shallow Cain supporters better get used to it. Cain's rabid angry supporters are making Republicans looks truly stupid.

Yesssssss... It's just the Cain supporters that are doing it.

 

[BenNatuf]

1. 9+9 is far less than I'm taxed now with only the income tax.

Congrats. Does this include the tax increase of the new 9.1% sales tax?



But surely you don't think people should have to pay taxes to the point of starvation? If you make less than $20K a year, should you pay 9% income tax + 9% sales tax?

3. I own a small business and would welcome the stability of a tax plan like this. A flat rate is something that can easily be incorporated into the cost of doing business.

How much would you be paying under the 9-9-9 plan? Keep in mind that you can't deduct the expense of labor or for purchases of any products made outside the United States. There's no word yet whether gasoline costs will be deductible since it's impossible to tell where the oil came from. Let's just say they're not. If you have a supplier, let's assume that supplier will pass the cost of transportation on to you.

I'm not sure what you do, so I don't want to assume too much. I don't know if you provide goods or services. I apologize if it's too personal to ask what your business takes in. On a side note, how many more people will you hire if your tax rate was 9% off the income minus the few deductions?

Edit: There's also a risk of a trade war igniting over Cain's plan. At the very least, it would violate WTO rules.

Read the op before you blindly attack. I clearly said their should be a trigger point to protect the indigent.

As far as my business goes I sell and install home remodeling products. At this point without all the details of its implimentation its hard to say exactly how the outcome will turn out. But I for one will not jump the gun and make broad based assumptions beyond the fact that this is a good starting point for "REAL" change.

Gramps... you have all the details. cain has said it complete and well thought out. All you have to do is go to his website and see the plan. Shouldn't take long, it's just a couple paragraphs.

 

[Cuyo]

Congrats. Does this include the tax increase of the new 9.1% sales tax?



But surely you don't think people should have to pay taxes to the point of starvation? If you make less than $20K a year, should you pay 9% income tax + 9% sales tax?



How much would you be paying under the 9-9-9 plan? Keep in mind that you can't deduct the expense of labor or for purchases of any products made outside the United States. There's no word yet whether gasoline costs will be deductible since it's impossible to tell where the oil came from. Let's just say they're not. If you have a supplier, let's assume that supplier will pass the cost of transportation on to you.

I'm not sure what you do, so I don't want to assume too much. I don't know if you provide goods or services. I apologize if it's too personal to ask what your business takes in. On a side note, how many more people will you hire if your tax rate was 9% off the income minus the few deductions?

Edit: There's also a risk of a trade war igniting over Cain's plan. At the very least, it would violate WTO rules.

YOU need to get out of the box of thinking of the OLD system. I know it's hard for some of you...but at least try?

Oh. I'm way, way out of the box buddy. What i suggest is that you actually research the plan, it's on Cains website, and then actually DO SOME THINKING about what the ramifications of this simplistic marketting scam would be on taxes.

It doesn't matter, Cain win or lose, this plan will NEVER see the light of day.

I can't believe there's actually pseudo-intellectuals here who give genuine credence to such a shameless gimmick.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Yeah, while being ceo of godfathers it want from 5th to 11th between him becoming ceo and stepping down. Yeah, sitting on the fed of Kansan...The very thing that 2/3rds of the people of this country opposes and hates within the Tea party and OWS. Cain sucks.

 

[Full-Auto]

Congrats. Does this include the tax increase of the new 9.1% sales tax?



But surely you don't think people should have to pay taxes to the point of starvation? If you make less than $20K a year, should you pay 9% income tax + 9% sales tax?



How much would you be paying under the 9-9-9 plan? Keep in mind that you can't deduct the expense of labor or for purchases of any products made outside the United States. There's no word yet whether gasoline costs will be deductible since it's impossible to tell where the oil came from. Let's just say they're not. If you have a supplier, let's assume that supplier will pass the cost of transportation on to you.

I'm not sure what you do, so I don't want to assume too much. I don't know if you provide goods or services. I apologize if it's too personal to ask what your business takes in. On a side note, how many more people will you hire if your tax rate was 9% off the income minus the few deductions?

Edit: There's also a risk of a trade war igniting over Cain's plan. At the very least, it would violate WTO rules.

Read the op before you blindly attack. I clearly said their should be a trigger point to protect the indigent.

As far as my business goes I sell and install home remodeling products. At this point without all the details of its implimentation its hard to say exactly how the outcome will turn out. But I for one will not jump the gun and make broad based assumptions beyond the fact that this is a good starting point for "REAL" change.

Gramps... you have all the details. cain has said it complete and well thought out. All you have to do is go to his website and see the plan. Shouldn't take long, it's just a couple paragraphs.

I am at the site, 999 | Herman Cain for President

But I am not seeing the boogeyman. Are you making ASSumptions?