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How many pages should the bill be?
It should be MUCH smaller and split into many bills that you can easily read. There is no exact size for each piece but there is reasonable and unreasonable. If you cannot see that over 2000 pages is unreasonable then you are blind. There is no reason that this bill cannot be split into many smaller 20 or so page bills that address each concern separately. As a whole, this bill is trash but there are many good ideas contained within it. My biggest problem is that the members that voted for it could not even have read it and there is no way that anyone can fully understand it. Broken up into pieces, it could be read and understood having each section stand on its own merit. the only reason this did not happen is that you cannot hide crap when there is nothing to hide it under.
LOL, Amazing. The number of pages in the bill is getting you upset. So how would 100, 20 page bills be any better? Maybe many of these issues overlap and they can't be just separated out. Six of one half a dozen of the other.
Do you have any actual complaints or are you just whining because that's what you were told to do?
So, no point then? Nothing to say to actually having lawmakers understand laws before they are passed. Nothing to say about the fact that most of this could have been clearly done in many smaller bills. Why are you okay with a bill that no one could read that is so full of extra crap? I said quite clearly that the bill should have been smaller so the lawmakers and even the public could understand what was going on. Instead we get the 'you have to pass it before you know what's in it' mentality. Scary that you can support that attitude in congress.How many pages should the bill be?
It should be MUCH smaller and split into many bills that you can easily read. There is no exact size for each piece but there is reasonable and unreasonable. If you cannot see that over 2000 pages is unreasonable then you are blind. There is no reason that this bill cannot be split into many smaller 20 or so page bills that address each concern separately. As a whole, this bill is trash but there are many good ideas contained within it. My biggest problem is that the members that voted for it could not even have read it and there is no way that anyone can fully understand it. Broken up into pieces, it could be read and understood having each section stand on its own merit. the only reason this did not happen is that you cannot hide crap when there is nothing to hide it under.
LOL, Amazing. The number of pages in the bill is getting you upset. So how would 100, 20 page bills be any better? Maybe many of these issues overlap and they can't be just separated out. Six of one half a dozen of the other.
Do you have any actual complaints or are you just whining because that's what you were told to do?
I'm still waiting to hear your plan Bern.
Already did that on page 2 of this thread.
I dind't see anything of the sort.
You're implying that you understand all 2000 pages of gibberish concocted by politicians and lawyers and that you've summarized and weighed the benefits versus the deficits and condensed the whole bill into one post?
You have a very high opinion of yourself.
Hell, if you can solve the whole nations health care problems in one post, they don't need a 2000 page bill, do they?
Gee, I wonder what all is in those other 1999 pages?...
I summarized some of the benefits just like you asked for. What exactly were you looking for?
If you admittedly haven't read the bill or even a summary of what the bill does, how do you know it's not a good bill?
This is one of the largest most important pieces of legislation to be approved in decades that reforms an industry that directly impacts 1/6 of our economy. If it was so easy to fix in a 20 page document, it would have been written years ago. There are alot of elements that needed to be addressed and detailed. Maybe you should be happy that it was *only* 2000 pages.It should be MUCH smaller and split into many bills that you can easily read. There is no exact size for each piece but there is reasonable and unreasonable. If you cannot see that over 2000 pages is unreasonable then you are blind. There is no reason that this bill cannot be split into many smaller 20 or so page bills that address each concern separately. As a whole, this bill is trash but there are many good ideas contained within it. My biggest problem is that the members that voted for it could not even have read it and there is no way that anyone can fully understand it. Broken up into pieces, it could be read and understood having each section stand on its own merit. the only reason this did not happen is that you cannot hide crap when there is nothing to hide it under.
LOL, Amazing. The number of pages in the bill is getting you upset. So how would 100, 20 page bills be any better? Maybe many of these issues overlap and they can't be just separated out. Six of one half a dozen of the other.
Do you have any actual complaints or are you just whining because that's what you were told to do?
You tell me, then...Why does it take 2000 pages? Look, I don't know if you've heard...You may be young and haven't lived long enough to gather experience...The government is dishonest. ...the reps. and the dems..yes and even your boy obama.
The fact that you have no idea what those pages say or what they mean...and you don't care because you're too partisan to put your country before your party tells me all I need to know.
So, no point then? Nothing to say to actually having lawmakers understand laws before they are passed. Nothing to say about the fact that most of this could have been clearly done in many smaller bills. Why are you okay with a bill that no one could read that is so full of extra crap? I said quite clearly that the bill should have been smaller so the lawmakers and even the public could understand what was going on. Instead we get the 'you have to pass it before you know what's in it' mentality. Scary that you can support that attitude in congress.It should be MUCH smaller and split into many bills that you can easily read. There is no exact size for each piece but there is reasonable and unreasonable. If you cannot see that over 2000 pages is unreasonable then you are blind. There is no reason that this bill cannot be split into many smaller 20 or so page bills that address each concern separately. As a whole, this bill is trash but there are many good ideas contained within it. My biggest problem is that the members that voted for it could not even have read it and there is no way that anyone can fully understand it. Broken up into pieces, it could be read and understood having each section stand on its own merit. the only reason this did not happen is that you cannot hide crap when there is nothing to hide it under.
LOL, Amazing. The number of pages in the bill is getting you upset. So how would 100, 20 page bills be any better? Maybe many of these issues overlap and they can't be just separated out. Six of one half a dozen of the other.
Do you have any actual complaints or are you just whining because that's what you were told to do?
Nice way to completely misconstrue what I was saying. To recap - it should have been presented in MANY shorter bills. I do not care if the end result ended up being as big, but it should have been done over a longer period with many small and pointed bills. As you said, it was a huge undertaking and attempting to take it all in one single fell swoop puts us in a bad position. Smaller bills could have stood on their own merits where this crap took a few points and carried a ton of baggage with it. Some of it wasn't even related to healthcare at all. Some of it drove us backward. Had the bill been presented piecemeal, much of the baggage would have been seen for what it is and not passes while the good reforms could pass. That is what I wanted to see. What we got was something else.This is one of the largest most important pieces of legislation to be approved in decades that reforms an industry that directly impacts 1/6 of our economy. If it was so easy to fix in a 20 page document, it would have been written years ago. There are alot of elements that needed to be addressed and detailed. Maybe you should be happy that it was *only* 2000 pages.
I'm still waiting to hear your plan Bern.
The 'plan' depends on who we are trying to address. I essentially see two groups; those that simply can't afford health care of any kind and those that CAN afford it but have chosen not to.
First those that can but don't. Simple, you chose not to purchase a health care plan, so you're on the hook for whatever medical services you may need. If they can't afford the hospital bills, they work out a payment plan. This is the specific group that contributes to higher premiums you were referring to. Again you have to consider what a truly small group of people this is. We're talking about a group of people smaller than the group that can afford coverage but chooses not to. Because premiums only go up when some percentage of THAT group of people actually incures some medical expenses. We both agree that other people having to pay for someone elses medical expense, especially when they could have afforded coverage is unfair. Because it's such a small group, I'm willing to live with that and focus on other ways of reducing the costs of actual services to counterbalance it. I certainly don't see how this unfairness is remedied by making everyone else purchase insurance. Sure it's a means to an end, but two wrongs don't make a right.
The second group we need to address or those that just can't pay There are two ways to handle these people that I think make sense. You can deal with it practically or you can deal with it morally.
Practically the simplest solution would be to expeand medicare/medicaid to include these people.
A component of the solution needs to be one that encourages individuals to take more responsibility for financial decisions as it relates to their health care. You lower costs by giving peope more choices. That much we know. Obamacare gives people LESS choice. Instead of further restricting what employers must offer, I would give people some type of voucher for health care to choose what they wanted. At the same time loosen the certan restrictions on the insurance industry that prevent them from offering more options. You will see prices fall across the board.
Nice way to completely misconstrue what I was saying. To recap - it should have been presented in MANY shorter bills. I do not care if the end result ended up being as big, but it should have been done over a longer period with many small and pointed bills. As you said, it was a huge undertaking and attempting to take it all in one single fell swoop puts us in a bad position. Smaller bills could have stood on their own merits where this crap took a few points and carried a ton of baggage with it. Some of it wasn't even related to healthcare at all. Some of it drove us backward. Had the bill been presented piecemeal, much of the baggage would have been seen for what it is and not passes while the good reforms could pass. That is what I wanted to see. What we got was something else.This is one of the largest most important pieces of legislation to be approved in decades that reforms an industry that directly impacts 1/6 of our economy. If it was so easy to fix in a 20 page document, it would have been written years ago. There are alot of elements that needed to be addressed and detailed. Maybe you should be happy that it was *only* 2000 pages.
This is one of the largest most important pieces of legislation to be approved in decades that reforms an industry that directly impacts 1/6 of our economy. If it was so easy to fix in a 20 page document, it would have been written years ago. There are alot of elements that needed to be addressed and detailed. Maybe you should be happy that it was *only* 2000 pages.LOL, Amazing. The number of pages in the bill is getting you upset. So how would 100, 20 page bills be any better? Maybe many of these issues overlap and they can't be just separated out. Six of one half a dozen of the other.
Do you have any actual complaints or are you just whining because that's what you were told to do?
You tell me, then...Why does it take 2000 pages? Look, I don't know if you've heard...You may be young and haven't lived long enough to gather experience...The government is dishonest. ...the reps. and the dems..yes and even your boy obama.
The fact that you have no idea what those pages say or what they mean...and you don't care because you're too partisan to put your country before your party tells me all I need to know.
Who says I don't know what it says? I have NEVER said this was a perfect bill, but at least I've made an effort to understand what this bill does and how it is beneficial and where it can be improved.
That's a far cry from what you've told us....."it's bad because the government made it and it's too many pages". LOL......now THAT tells us all we need to know about you.
This is one of the largest most important pieces of legislation to be approved in decades that reforms an industry that directly impacts 1/6 of our economy. If it was so easy to fix in a 20 page document, it would have been written years ago. There are alot of elements that needed to be addressed and detailed. Maybe you should be happy that it was *only* 2000 pages.You tell me, then...Why does it take 2000 pages? Look, I don't know if you've heard...You may be young and haven't lived long enough to gather experience...The government is dishonest. ...the reps. and the dems..yes and even your boy obama.
The fact that you have no idea what those pages say or what they mean...and you don't care because you're too partisan to put your country before your party tells me all I need to know.
Who says I don't know what it says? I have NEVER said this was a perfect bill, but at least I've made an effort to understand what this bill does and how it is beneficial and where it can be improved.
That's a far cry from what you've told us....."it's bad because the government made it and it's too many pages". LOL......now THAT tells us all we need to know about you.
Ok. I already said I can't understand all of the bill. Apparently I'm no smarter than your dem. leaders. pelosi admitted she hasn't a clue what all is in it...reid did too...THEY said so themselves...
but YOU got it all down...ok.right..whatever.
You haven't answered one single question I asked you in the previous posts..you've deflected and dodged every time. That was enough of an "answer", though. I learned something.
The U.S. Constitution with the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence cover 6 pages roughly.
The entire legal foundations of this government. 6 pages
2000 pages for the health care bill...and no one (except you) has admitted that they completely understand it...not even the people who wrote the damned thing....whatever...
Like I said, through many years of experience having to live with the results of their "efforts" in my behalf, I've learned not to trust politicians.
You probably will too, eventually.
The AMA is the largest group of physicians in this country, and it is run through a democratic process, not by big pharma. Here is a guide I found on their site about their decision making:the primary problem is that DOCTORS have NO VOICE in the debate (hint the AMA does NOT represent doctors they represent BIG PHARMA and that is why the majority of MD's do NOT belong to the AMA)
The most efficient, moral, and fiscally responsible means of solving the problem is to distribute the risk as evenly as possible over the population. That's it, plain and simple, although the means of producing that is pretty tricky.I know what you've told me and that is 350 million americans need to be required to purchase health care to make up for those that won't. Which indeed is an inefficient, immoral and fiscally irresponsible means of solving the problem of paying for people who can't and/or won't purchase health care.
The premiums WERE rising, before and after. This is nothing new. The real question is WHY they are rising. Is it due to increased spending requiring increased income? Or is it that profits for those companies are just rising.RDD, two of those things are incorrect:
- Fewer uninsured people lowers the costs for everyone else
Then why are premiums rising? I guess that this is a fallacy...
This is not actually true.That is a favorite of Democrats and other defenders of this debacle. the problem is that coverage was rarely denied based on those conditions.
As someone else mentioned, these seem to be unsupported opinions. Again, regardless of the frequency this had happened in the country previously, do you or do you not believe that insurance companies should be able to drop patients when a major illness hits due to irrelevant or unrelated clerical errors or other excuses?- Preventing being dropped from your insurance when struck with a major illness.
Another claim that falls short in the fact department.
Yes you can make the claim that people chose the wrong insurance, but at the end of the day, when they can't pay for themselves and go bankrupt, it's everyone else who is picking up the tab. We can similarly be without sympathy for people with no insurance, but it is your low sympathy that contributes to the problem: uninsured people raise our insurance rates.Which will raise rates for everyone, even those who prefer to have that limited coverage.- Removal of lifetime and eventually yearly caps on coverage limits
I can understand why this can cause problems, I just fail to understand why people whine about it. They chose the policy that had limited coverage, and then expect the insurer to keep paying when they have expenses they do not anticipate. My sympathy for this problem is rather low.
The Republicans are protraying themselves as saviors from Obamacare and want to get us back to status quo (or a few talking point changes that will do little - like tort reform and buying across statelines).
Obamacare might not be the answer, but our system is a fucking mess and needs to be changes ASAP. Most Americans are one sickness or injury away from losing everything! Medical bills is still the leading cause of bankruptcy! Healthcare is still outrageously expensive! Ditto for health insurance. Pre-existing conditions puts the people that really need healthcare in no win situation. Health insurance coverage puts our corporations and small businesses at a HUGE disadvantage in the global market.
I repeat, going back to what it was is NOT ideal or acceptable.
You say the Republicans are proposing a repeal and replace bill. Sorry if I don't trust them, because they did have both houses of Congress and the Presidency for 6 years and a good economy, with low unemployment during the Bush years and they did DICK!
There are all kinds of problems with the health care debate. One of them, and case in point here, would be the misrepresentation of what the right wants. No we don't want the status quo. Another would be that you seem to believe that doing something, anything, is always better than doing nothing. I have heard this from two people now on this board, you and RDD. "Well I really don't like most of the bill either, but hey it's something, so that's good, right?" WRONG!
This is one of the largest most important pieces of legislation to be approved in decades that reforms an industry that directly impacts 1/6 of our economy. If it was so easy to fix in a 20 page document, it would have been written years ago. There are alot of elements that needed to be addressed and detailed. Maybe you should be happy that it was *only* 2000 pages.
Who says I don't know what it says? I have NEVER said this was a perfect bill, but at least I've made an effort to understand what this bill does and how it is beneficial and where it can be improved.
That's a far cry from what you've told us....."it's bad because the government made it and it's too many pages". LOL......now THAT tells us all we need to know about you.
Ok. I already said I can't understand all of the bill. Apparently I'm no smarter than your dem. leaders. pelosi admitted she hasn't a clue what all is in it...reid did too...THEY said so themselves...
but YOU got it all down...ok.right..whatever.
You haven't answered one single question I asked you in the previous posts..you've deflected and dodged every time. That was enough of an "answer", though. I learned something.
The U.S. Constitution with the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence cover 6 pages roughly.
The entire legal foundations of this government. 6 pages
2000 pages for the health care bill...and no one (except you) has admitted that they completely understand it...not even the people who wrote the damned thing....whatever...
Like I said, through many years of experience having to live with the results of their "efforts" in my behalf, I've learned not to trust politicians.
You probably will too, eventually.
We get it, you don't like to read. Maybe they should make this bill in to a movie, that way you can better understand it. But then you'll probably just complain that it's longer than 2 hours and if they can make "Ernest goes to Camp" in less then 2 hours, then all movies worth a damn should do the same. Am I right?
Ok. I already said I can't understand all of the bill. Apparently I'm no smarter than your dem. leaders. pelosi admitted she hasn't a clue what all is in it...reid did too...THEY said so themselves...
but YOU got it all down...ok.right..whatever.
You haven't answered one single question I asked you in the previous posts..you've deflected and dodged every time. That was enough of an "answer", though. I learned something.
The U.S. Constitution with the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence cover 6 pages roughly.
The entire legal foundations of this government. 6 pages
2000 pages for the health care bill...and no one (except you) has admitted that they completely understand it...not even the people who wrote the damned thing....whatever...
Like I said, through many years of experience having to live with the results of their "efforts" in my behalf, I've learned not to trust politicians.
You probably will too, eventually.
We get it, you don't like to read. Maybe they should make this bill in to a movie, that way you can better understand it. But then you'll probably just complain that it's longer than 2 hours and if they can make "Ernest goes to Camp" in less then 2 hours, then all movies worth a damn should do the same. Am I right?
wow...
From dodging every question to changing the subject you've finally managed to completely abandon even mentioning the topic at all.
If you cannot keep pace with the debate, perhaps you should excuse yourself from it.
I am not going to argue with somebody who has no logical point to make, and doesn't stand for anything other than the sake of argument.
I have already asked pages ago to give us a point by point evaluation of the benefits and drawbacks of this 2000 page document. and share with us your one of a kind insight on the bill.
You continuously evade and dodge because you don't really know, yet INSIST that you have a unique understanding of the bill while offering nothing of substance.
If you did not understand me just now, go back and re-read, and if you still do not understand, then you do not possess the necessary intellect to post here and should go elsewhere, good day sir.
Again, you must lie about my position and deflect. Stop being dishonest. It is not the way it is formatted. It is the fact that crap was passed that make this bill more weight and less help. I have pointed this out multiple times and you have steadfastly ignored it. Are you going to address the point?Ok, so you are against an enormously important piece of legislation because of the way it was formatted? Get the hell out of here. Let me know when you decide not to be so damn lazy and want to discuss what the bill does and not how it's formatted.
but now they are rising FASTER. Far faster as a matter of fact and, if I am not mistaken, the bill limits the amount of profit that an insurance company is allowed to make as a percentage of their total expences. So, the original problem, the one Obama started this bill on, was to reduce costs and all we have seen is an increase in costs. That is a major problemThe premiums WERE rising, before and after. This is nothing new. The real question is WHY they are rising. Is it due to increased spending requiring increased income? Or is it that profits for those companies are just rising.
Health Insurers Post Record Profits - ABC News
Looks like the latter.
Again, you must lie about my position and deflect. Stop being dishonest. It is not the way it is formatted. It is the fact that crap was passed that make this bill more weight and less help. I have pointed this out multiple times and you have steadfastly ignored it. Are you going to address the point?Ok, so you are against an enormously important piece of legislation because of the way it was formatted? Get the hell out of here. Let me know when you decide not to be so damn lazy and want to discuss what the bill does and not how it's formatted.
Ok, since you say the 2nd group is the bigger one and thus more important to address, lets discuss that.
Your suggestion is to expand medicare/medicaid. So it sounds like you are in favor of a government backed insurance option for all those people. That's actually a more liberal idea then what this legislation even is. I don't disagree with it, but you realize now what we're doing is putting people on private insurance plans and not gov't plans. Do you feel this is wrong and we should have all of them on government run plans?
I agree that people need to take more responsibility. That's why included in this legislation is mandates that calorie and nutrition information needs to be provided at Fast food restaurants which are a major contributor to obesity, heart disease and a variety of ailments that are adding billions to our nations healthcare costs.
The only "choices" that are being taken away are plans that didn't offer coverage that would prevent someone from going broke if they were hit with a major illness. Going bankrupt even though they had "insurance". These are the types of policies that failed to actually insure people. We don't need those types of policies in this country since all they did was contribute to the rising costs problem for everyone else.
