Heken the Whore - What about....

[al Haq]

As has been confirmed by historical documents as well as genetic evidence, the modern Palestinian people are descended from a core population that has lived in Palestine since prehistoric times.

Certainly, many different ethnic groups have passed through Palestine and mixed with the indigenous population over the ages - Canaanite, Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebrew, Roman, Arab, Crusader, and many more. They have all left their genetic mark on the modern Palestinian people, as DNA research has determined.

However, there was no mass immigration of Arabs that displaced the core population. Rather, the local people became Arabized, adopting the dominant culture's language and religion. This model is actually very common throughout human history - as in Latin America during the Spanish conquest.

My post (above) has apparently upset Ghook93:

Heken the Whore - What... 06-16-2010 09:20 AM GHook93 Wow that is a big lie!

Come debate it, Ghook93. If you can.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It's a well-known fact that Palestinians aren't indigenous to "Palestine", but are Arabs that immigrated there from other Arab countries. (That's why they're called Arabs--because they originated in Arabia.)

I had missed this post.

This claim is absurd. As has been confirmed by historical documents as well as genetic evidence, the modern Palestinian people are descended from a core population that has lived in Palestine since prehistoric times.

Certainly, many different ethnic groups have passed through Palestine and mixed with the indigenous population over the ages - Canaanite, Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebrew, Roman, Arab, Crusader, and many more. They have all left their genetic mark on the modern Palestinian people, as DNA research has determined.

However, there was no mass immigration of Arabs that displaced the core population. Rather, the local people became Arabized, adopting the dominant culture's language and religion. This model is actually very common throughout human history - as in Latin America during the Spanish conquest.

YOU LIE!!!

They are direct descendants of ARABS. The first ones came over during the Arab Crusades/Capliates started by the Grand Warlord and Assassin Mohammad in the 7th century. In fact the Arab Crusades are the reason Islam spread to far and wide. Islam spread by the sword. The Arab conquest started by Mohammad conquered the Arabian Pennsula, then it spread West into Africa, they took Persia, took Modern Day Turkey, pushed in the Balkans and East into Modern Day Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. It was spread by the sword, in fact the Modern Egyptians are Arabs and not direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians fromt the bible. The Arab Crusaders are to thank.

I digress. Then Christian Crusaders came in a slaughter the inhabitants, Jew, Arab Christian and Muslim alike. The Arabs took it back, but then the Ottoman Empire took the lands. During this point, Jews and Arabs remained, but the population was by far at its lowest point ever. It was a desert land that was sparsely populated (but it very true the Muslims were the majority). During the mid and late 1800s some Jews and Arabs started coming to the lands (throughout Israel/Palestine the Muslims were the majority, except in Jerusalem!), but it wasn't until the British Mandates that the people who call themselves Palestinians started to really come great number. There was no restrictions on Muslim immigration. A Muslim could be a violent criminal with a infectious disease and he could still immigrate (Jews couldn't immigrate).

So? My grandparents came to the US from Germany and Scotland. Does that mean that I am not American?

There are two different people in Palestine.

1) Those who have lived there forever or immigrated to Palestine over the centuries to be part of Palestine. People who want to make their contributions and seek their rewards.

2) Those who came to Palestine to take it over.

Number one can rightfully claim to be Palestinians.

Number two are foreign invaders.

 

[al Haq]

YOU LIE!!!

They are direct descendants of ARABS. The first ones came over during the Arab Crusades/Capliates started by the Grand Warlord and Assassin Mohammad in the 7th century. In fact the Arab Crusades are the reason Islam spread to far and wide. Islam spread by the sword. The Arab conquest started by Mohammad conquered the Arabian Pennsula, then it spread West into Africa, they took Persia, took Modern Day Turkey, pushed in the Balkans and East into Modern Day Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. It was spread by the sword, in fact the Modern Egyptians are Arabs and not direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians fromt the bible. The Arab Crusaders are to thank.

I digress. Then Christian Crusaders came in a slaughter the inhabitants, Jew, Arab Christian and Muslim alike. The Arabs took it back, but then the Ottoman Empire took the lands. During this point, Jews and Arabs remained, but the population was by far at its lowest point ever. It was a desert land that was sparsely populated (but it very true the Muslims were the majority). During the mid and late 1800s some Jews and Arabs started coming to the lands (throughout Israel/Palestine the Muslims were the majority, except in Jerusalem!), but it wasn't until the British Mandates that the people who call themselves Palestinians started to really come great number. There was no restrictions on Muslim immigration. A Muslim could be a violent criminal with a infectious disease and he could still immigrate (Jews couldn't immigrate).

Here are a few sources for the genetic research:

High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli... [Hum Genet. 2000] - PubMed result

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes ? PNAS

ScienceNow


I will be back with the Ottoman and British population records, which directly contradict the claims of a mass immigration of Arabs into Palestine during the British Mandate.

 

[al Haq]

As has been confirmed by historical documents as well as genetic evidence, the modern Palestinian people are descended from a core population that has lived in Palestine since prehistoric times.

Certainly, many different ethnic groups have passed through Palestine and mixed with the indigenous population over the ages - Canaanite, Phoenician, Egyptian, Hebrew, Roman, Arab, Crusader, and many more. They have all left their genetic mark on the modern Palestinian people, as DNA research has determined.

However, there was no mass immigration of Arabs that displaced the core population. Rather, the local people became Arabized, adopting the dominant culture's language and religion. This model is actually very common throughout human history - as in Latin America during the Spanish conquest.

YOU LIE!!!

They are direct descendants of ARABS. The first ones came over during the Arab Crusades/Capliates started by the Grand Warlord and Assassin Mohammad in the 7th century. In fact the Arab Crusades are the reason Islam spread to far and wide. Islam spread by the sword. The Arab conquest started by Mohammad conquered the Arabian Pennsula, then it spread West into Africa, they took Persia, took Modern Day Turkey, pushed in the Balkans and East into Modern Day Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. It was spread by the sword, in fact the Modern Egyptians are Arabs and not direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians fromt the bible. The Arab Crusaders are to thank.

Apart from your egregiously misinformed take on the “history” of the spread of Islam, you have the bizarre notion that the Muslim conquest across the Middle East and Western Asia caused the disappearance of indigenous populations - that all these people were replaced by some kind of generic Gulf Arabs. This is absurd. West Africa, Persia, Turkey, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Egypt *all* retain their distinct ethnic groups. Sure there was some mixing of populations over the centuries, but native peoples were not erased or even marginalized by "Arab conquest."

Egyptians don’t consider themselves “Arab” either - they are descended in part from ancient Egyptians, but blended with other populations as well. DNA studies of modern Egyptians show that they are genetically related to North African and Berber populations; as well as other sub-Saharan Nilotic peoples (Ethiopians, Somalis, Eritreans, Sudanese); Near Eastern peoples from the Levant to Iraq; and ethinc groups of the northern Mediterranean (Greeks and Italians.)

(The short-lived UAR thing was due to Nasser and his support of pan-Arabism.)

I digress. Then Christian Crusaders came in a slaughter the inhabitants, Jew, Arab Christian and Muslim alike. The Arabs took it back, but then the Ottoman Empire took the lands. During this point, Jews and Arabs remained, but the population was by far at its lowest point ever. It was a desert land that was sparsely populated (but it very true the Muslims were the majority). During the mid and late 1800s some Jews and Arabs started coming to the lands (throughout Israel/Palestine the Muslims were the majority, except in Jerusalem!), but it wasn't until the British Mandates that the people who call themselves Palestinians started to really come great number. There was no restrictions on Muslim immigration. A Muslim could be a violent criminal with a infectious disease and he could still immigrate (Jews couldn't immigrate).

This myth that Palestinians are not the native people of Palestine was developed after the original Zionist fairy-tale (“Land without people for a people without land&#8221 became too obvious a lie in the 1960s. So this was the "new-and-improved" version to try to explain away all those pesky Palestinians and somehow justify denying them the right to their own homeland.

It was the central theme of “From Time Immemorial,” Joan Peters’ amateurish attempt at historical revision. The book has been soundly laughed out of academia by scholars on both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict who made quick work of picking her “research” completely apart.

Critics included Israeli historian and right-wing Zionist Yehoshua Porath, who agreed with British authorities that the Arab increase in Palestine for at least the last 200 years was overwhelmingly due to “natural increase.”

In case you didn't know, Palestinian women are documented to have one of the highest birthrates in the world, since at least the middle of the 19th century. The average for a Palestinian woman who has lived through her childbearing years is slightly more than 7 live births. And the Palestinian birth rate is higher among Muslims than among Christians.

But you say this mass immigration from other Arab countries took place during the British Mandate. So let us look at the evidence:


Total Population of Palestine during the British Mandate
(source: British Mandate Census, Esco Foundation, 1947)

Year **** Total ****** Muslims (%)******** Jews (%) ******* Christians (%)
1922 ---- 752,048 ** 589,177 - (78.34%) *** 83,790 - (11.14%) *** 71,464 - (9.5%)
1931 -- 1,033,314 ** 759,700 - (73.52%) ** 174,606 - (16.90%) *** 88,907 - (8.60%)
1932 -- 1,073,827 ** 778,803 - (75.52%) ** 192,137 - (17.90%) *** 92,520 - (8.61%)
1933 -- 1,140,941 ** 798,506 - (69.99%) ** 234,967 - (20.59%) *** 96,791 - (8.48%)
1934 -- 1,210,554 ** 814,379 - (67.27%) ** 282,975 - (23.38%) ** 102,407 - (8.46%)
1935 -- 1,308,112 ** 836,688 - (63.96%) ** 355,157 - (27.15%) ** 105,236 - (8.04%)
1936 -- 1,366,692 ** 862,730 - (63.13%) ** 384,078 - (28.10%) ** 108,506 - (7.94%)
1937 -- 1,401,794 ** 883,446 - (63.02%) ** 395,836 - (28.24%) ** 110,869 - (7.91%)
1938 -- 1,435,285 ** 900,250 - (62.72%) ** 411,222 - (28.65%) ** 111,974 - (7.80%)
1939 -- 1,501,698 ** 927,133 - (61.74%) ** 445,457 - (29.66%) ** 116,958 - (7.79%)
1940 -- 1,544,530 ** 947,847 - (61.37%) ** 463,535 - (30.01%) ** 120,587 - (7.81%)
1941 -- 1,585,500 ** 973,104 - (61.38%) ** 474,102 - (29.90%) ** 125,413 - (7.91%)
1942 -- 1,620,005 ** 995,292 - (61.44%) ** 484,408 - (29.90%) ** 127,184 - (7.85%)

* (Not included here: Persons categorized as “other” which constituted 1.01 or less of each year’s count)


Analysis of Net Emigration to Palestine during the British Mandate
(Esco Foundation, 1947)

Year **** Jews (%) ***** Non-Jewish (%) *** Total
1930 --- 3,265 (95.2%) ****** 165 (4.8%) ***** 3,430
1931 --- 3,409 (81.4%) ****** 778 (18.6%) **** 4,187
1932 --- 9,553 (84.6%) **** 1,736 (15.4%) **** 11,289
1933 -- 30,327 (94.8%) **** 1,650 (5.2%) ***** 31,977
1934 -- 42,359 (96.0%) **** 1,784 (4.0%) ***** 44,143
1935 -- 61,458 (97.0%) **** 1,906 (3.0%) ***** 63,364
1936 -- 28,954 (95.0%) **** 1,539 (5.0%) ***** 30,493
1937 --- 9,647 (88.1%) **** 1,300 (11.9%) **** 10,947
1938 -- 11,773 (87.5%) **** 1.679 (12.5%) **** 13,452
1939 -- 15,386 (93.6%) **** 1,051 (6.4%) ***** 16,437
Total - 216,131 (94.1%) ****13,588 (5.9%) **** 229,719

As you can see, Jewish immigrants to Palestine in 1930-1939 were the overwhelming majority of immigrants, despite British attempts to stop illegal immigration and set quotas for legal Jewish immigration beginning in the 1920s. Arab immigration was quite low in comparison.

Further evidence:

Peel Report 1937 “Arab Illegal Immigration” Chapter X, Section 2, part (b):
"The dimensions of the volume of illegal immigration from neighbouring territories are not known. There is evidence that many of these illegal immigrants have land in the neighbouring territories and leave their wives and families in those territories while seeking to augment their livelihood by labour in Palestine. There is evidence also that this form of illegal immigration is seasonal. It is probable that seasonal immigration leaves a residue in Palestine of people who have decided to settle permanently in the country. There is no evidence available to show that this residue is so considerable as seriously to disturb the general economy of Palestine." (p. 292)

Anglo-American Survey of Palestine (1946) Chapter VII:
"Arab illegal immigration is mainly of the types described in the first paragraph of this memorandum as casual, temporary and seasonal. It is illegal in the sense that the entry and the mode of entry do not conform with the provisions of the Immigration Ordinance and it is therefore not susceptible of statistical record. On the other hand, it is not illegal in the sense that the immigrants settle permanently in Palestine."

...

"That some movement of this kind may lead to a residue of illegal permanent settlers is possible, but, if the residue were of significant size, it would be reflected in systematic disturbances of the rates of Arab vital occurrences. No such systematic disturbances are observed. It is sometimes alleged that the high rate of Arab natural increase is due to a large concealed immigration from the neighbouring countries. This is an erroneous inference. Researches reveal that the high rate of fertility of the Moslem Arab woman has remained unchanged for half a century. The low rate of Arab natural increase before 1914 was caused by (a) the removal in significant numbers of men in the early nubile years for military service in other parts of the Ottoman Empire, many of whom never returned and others of whom returned in the late years of life; and (b) the lack of effective control of endemic and epidemic diseases that in those years led to high mortality rates."

...

"The conclusion is that Arab illegal immigration for the purposes of permanent settlement is insignificant" (pp. 210-212)

…

"out of a total number of 360,822 immigrants who entered Palestine between 1920 and 1942, only 27,981 or 7.8% were Arabs." (p. 195)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So? My grandparents came to the US from Germany and Scotland. Does that mean that I am not American?

There are two different people in Palestine.

1) Those who have lived there forever or immigrated to Palestine over the centuries to be part of Palestine. People who want to make their contributions and seek their rewards.

2) Those who came to Palestine to take it over.

Number one can rightfully claim to be Palestinians.

Number two are foreign invaders.

What about the ones forced from their homes and into Palestine?

 

[P F Tinmore]

So? My grandparents came to the US from Germany and Scotland. Does that mean that I am not American?

There are two different people in Palestine.

1) Those who have lived there forever or immigrated to Palestine over the centuries to be part of Palestine. People who want to make their contributions and seek their rewards.

2) Those who came to Palestine to take it over.

Number one can rightfully claim to be Palestinians.

Number two are foreign invaders.

What about the ones forced from their homes and into Palestine?

Good question. What do the Palestinian factions say?

Salam Fayyed said that Israeli settlement in the West Bank including East Jerusalem do not need to be dismantled. The Jews can stay as citizens of Palestine.

The Jews can stay, it is Israel that must go. ~ Hamas

Surely the Jews have the same right to live in the holy land as the Christians and Muslims.