Heaven

[5stringJeff]

Clyde,

Catholics believe in the inerrancy of the Pope, and that he is Christ's representative on earth. Protestant Christians reject those claims.

Never heard of the World Church of God... I guess I'll have to google search it!

 

[5stringJeff]

Well, here's what I found on the World Church of God. Sounds like a spinoff of the Seventh-Day Adventists.

http://www.peterjblackburn.com/religion/wwcofg.htm

 

[clyde]

I want to thankyou for replying to my posts and giving me rational, unbiased answers.

Clyde

 

[SLClemens]

Hi Clyde,

Catholics (of which I'm not, except in the small-c sense of "universal") believe that pronouncements of the Pope are infallible when made from his apostolic seat. But as an official doctrine this is relatively new, I believe a nineteenth-century one. You may wish to see http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#IIIB . There are many other differences between Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, and Catholic break-away groups; however, adherence to the Pope in Rome is generally a point of division between Catholics and others. Some Episcopalians consider themselves Protestant in their theology but still strongly connected with Rome, and Catholic in the sense that they have an episcopacy (system of bishops) that shares the same pre-1530s heritage and lineage as the Catholic Church.

As for heaven, it means many different things to many different Christians. So do issues about who gets there and how, if it exists in any tangible sense. That's about the best I can come up with.

 

[clyde]

hi Sl Clemens,
First of all let me say that I have no agender here.I've been an Atheist most of my life.I don't care what you or other religionists believe in.I am only here to educate myself as to what religionists believe in.I'm quite certain my beliefs are correct.I'm secure in my beliefs and I'm not interested in debating you or others.
I feel no human is infallible.Everybody makes mistakes,even the leader of a religion or the executive director of Atheist's United .We live in the 21st century.Having been brought up in the Jewish faith,many years ago I would have thought it would be unthinkable for a woman to be a rabbi or a cantor.I remember when I was a little kid I would go to shuel and see a male rabbi and a male cantor. This was just a matter of fact or the way it was supposed to be.Today Judaism has changed.There are now female rabbi's and female cantors.
But sadly I don't see any change in the Christian Church.There's just too much division and unacceptance of change.I'm sure there are alot of people who would like to see more women playing roles in the Christian Church but because of the Pope's stance,change at least with this Pope will never occur.
As for heaven or hell I believe this is just a creation of Man for those who cannot or will not consciously except the finality of life and that yes this is all there is and no there is no continuation of life after death.Again this is my belief.I'm not going to debate you and say your beliefs are wrong.I respect your beliefs.You have a right to believe as you may wish so long as your beliefs don't infringe upon me.I also have a right to believe as I wish,and I have absolutely no desire to change your beliefs.I really don't care.

Clyde

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by clyde
hi Sl Clemens,
First of all let me say that I have no agender here.I've been an Atheist most of my life.I don't care what you or other religionists believe in.I am only here to educate myself as to what religionists believe in.I'm quite certain my beliefs are correct.I'm secure in my beliefs and I'm not interested in debating you or others.
I feel no human is infallible.Everybody makes mistakes,even the leader of a religion or the executive director of Atheist's United .We live in the 21st century.Having been brought up in the Jewish faith,many years ago I would have thought it would be unthinkable for a woman to be a rabbi or a cantor.I remember when I was a little kid I would go to shuel and see a male rabbi and a male cantor. This was just a matter of fact or the way it was supposed to be.Today Judaism has changed.There are now female rabbi's and female cantors.
But sadly I don't see any change in the Christian Church.There's just too much division and unacceptance of change.I'm sure there are alot of people who would like to see more women playing roles in the Christian Church but because of the Pope's stance,change at least with this Pope will never occur.
As for heaven or hell I believe this is just a creation of Man for those who cannot or will not consciously except the finality of life and that yes this is all there is and no there is no continuation of life after death.Again this is my belief.I'm not going to debate you and say your beliefs are wrong.I respect your beliefs.You have a right to believe as you may wish so long as your beliefs don't infringe upon me.I also have a right to believe as I wish,and I have absolutely no desire to change your beliefs.I really don't care.

Clyde

Clyde,

I certainly don't see any agenda with what you've asked. As for heaven, well, like I said, I really don't know. I think GOP_Jeff has given you a good idea what most Protestant Christians who tend to believe that the Bible is literally true think. They look at all passages that pertain to heaven and reach a synthesis that does not seem contradictory. But there are some 1.5+ billion Christians around and many different views. Catholics who hold dogmatically to the teachings of their Church believe that most Christians spend time in purgatory getting purged of their sinful nature before proceeding to heaven. I cannot read the Bible and come up with any coherent explanation.

Like you, I often wonder about the extent to which heaven is a human construction. It's potentially dangerous, because if you believe that getting as many people into heaven as possible, as well as yourself, is your reason for being it can cause you to do almost anything to achieve this, including some potentially terrible things. Many people have tortured in the name of Christ for this reason. On the other hand, it can also cause you do to all sorts of wonderful works of sacrifice for others.

For me heaven is a hope of good things to come after I die, but if I end up being nothing but decomposing fertiliser, I still think I'll have been a better person for being a Christian. Well, at least a less worse person, lol. Actually, in theological terms I might be more of a unitarian / universalist, but I still prefer to go to a Protestant church, and use interpretations of the Bible as a guide.

Heaven, I should mention, is also a kingdom where we are not bound by earthly desires, and one that we can work to achieve before we die.

I'd be careful how you conceive of the "Christian Church" - Christian "churches" might be a better way of looking at them, and some of them have changed a whole lot. I found your childhood views very interesting. When I was a child I would never have imagined going to a church with a woman pastor and sharing pews with gays, and with agnostics and people who prefer the theological outlooks of other religions but still like to come to church, but now that's exactly what I'm doing. Other churches are much more like my childhood conceptions. And there were churches around when I was a child that are much like the one I now attend - I just didn't know they existed.

If none of this sounds very interesting or appealing I hope that you're still able to draw upon your own religious heritage for inspiration and spiritual comfort. Judaism is a fascinating and deeply complex religion, and if you have the faculties to help open it up to you, even as an atheist, I think it will be an enriching experience.

 

[clyde]

Hi SL Clemens,
For those who do believe in a god(s),I would think one would try to be the best human being one can be and not do it with the expectation or hope that what they do right here on Earth will get them to heaven.As for me I'm quite certain that no such place exists.I believe, in my first sarcastic post, I asked if there are any bowling alleys in heaven, because it sounded like a pretty boring place to spend eternity.But the belief of religionists who believe in a heaven and to spend eternity in the presence of their god just doesn't sound like a very thrilling experience compared to how we have spent our limited time right here on Earth.Yet I'm sure there are religionists out there who would disagree with me because they have not led milk and honey lives and would probably think any place is better than what their lives were like here on Earth and would hope or have faith or aspirations of something or some place better.
As I said in a previous post I have never read the bible and reading all 66 books would seem like a pretty laborious task.But I think some place in the bible it says some thing about loving your neighbor as you would yourself.I,even as an Atheist don't do this.There are people living in my apartment building that I've never even said hello to.There are homeless people all over the place.I have on very few occasions given these people a dollar.I'm not patting myself on the back.But I don't do it with the expectation that this is the pathway to heaven.Now that the holidays are upon us,charitable foundations are asking for help.Yes Christians and other religionists do think of and donate.But what about the rest of the year.How many God loving people out there are willing to invite a homeless person to their home,give him a shower and make him a nice home cooked meal and send him on his way with some newer clothes and a few extra bucks in their pocket.I would dare say few,if any.

Clyde

 

[SLClemens]

Clyde, I quite agree that doing good deeds just for a heavenly reward is not a great way of thinking. What you said about heaven being a boring place - I had to laugh - I've thought the same myself. Half the fun to life is overcoming challenges. What challenges are we going to overcome there?

As you've rightfully perceived, religion doesn't seem to change too many people too much. But it does change some people a lot (sometimes even for the better) and a lot of people a bit. Look around at charities, as well, and you'll see that a great deal of them are Christian or Jewish based. Some of them are the result of people really going out on a limb for others, too. Of course, athiests and agnostics have done a lot of the same things, too, and I think any competition in this area is great.

 

[clyde]

SL Clemens,
Y'know,this is a Muslim thread.Had I realized that in the beginning I would never had posted here,but I did.I'm sure there are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims.The same with all religionists as well as Atheists.I'm sure there must be many good Muslim charities.Unfortunately in the U.S.I've only heard of the bad Muslim charities.The ones who take in money and send it on to the terrorists.It's just too bad Muslims don't have better public relation departments like the Christians and the Jews,to up their image to Americans and the World.Just last week on 60 minutes there was a segment on about President Arafat and about how rich he's become.What I don't understand is here's a man who's perhaps worth more than $1 billion and his people,the Palistinians,most of whom are out of work and those who do work make hardly anything.And this guy Arafat who earned much of this money through corruption,just hordes all this money.
BTW,the Koran teaches Muslims that Jews are monkeys and swine.Please if you or someone else here who is a Muslim, explain this to me.Why is it necessary to knock people down to your level?Forgive me for my lack of religious education because I never really had an interest in religion.Muhammad who founded Islam via a spiritual call from the angel,Gabriel.Is that right or am I sort of close?If so then it was one man,Muhammad telling his people about Allah.Of course why the angel only picked one man,Muhammad is beyond me.It's kind of like this picture I've seen many times about these 3 sisters from Fatima who said they saw the Virgin Mary.Why would the Virgin Mary just show her image to just 3 sisters and not to the hundreds of townspeople?Personally I've always thought that these were 3 sisters who had nothing going on in their lives so when one sister said she saw the Virgin Mary the other 2 went along for the ride,but I think they were hallucinating,just as I'm sure Muhammad was hallucinating seeing a vision of the angel,Gabriel.