Heaven and Hell are Impossible

[Dragon]

Heaven, Hell, the immortal soul, all these are supposed to be eternal.

Eternity is outside time.

But all action and all change occurs within time; outside time, neither action nor change has any conceptual meaning.

Heaven is supposed to be bliss. Hell is supposed to be suffering.

Bliss and suffering are both actions or changes. Both, therefore, require time. But Heaven and Hell are conceived as eternal, outside time.

Heaven and Hell, as usually conceived, are impossible.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Hey Dragon, ever hear about multi dimensional reality and string theory?

PBS had a Cosmos show about the multiverse, and in the physicists' understanding, yeah.......both could exist.

And.........fwiw..........it's not Heaven or hell that are outside time, it is God Himself who is outside of time.

 

[Truthmatters]

there are many religions man has made up to soothe himself from lack of knowledge.

None of them are anything but fantasy

 

[Dragon]

And.........fwiw..........it's not Heaven or hell that are outside time, it is God Himself who is outside of time.

But eternity is a requirement for immortality. If something is in time, then it is consistently changing, and as it changes it will eventually cease to exist, changing form until it is unrecognizable. The normal conception of Heaven and Hell involves the soul going on, unchanging, forever, and this is only possible outside of time.

 

[Mad Scientist]

there are many religions man has made up to soothe himself from lack of knowledge.

None of them are anything but fantasy

So what's the religion you follow?

 

[ABikerSailor]

And.........fwiw..........it's not Heaven or hell that are outside time, it is God Himself who is outside of time.

But eternity is a requirement for immortality. If something is in time, then it is consistently changing, and as it changes it will eventually cease to exist, changing form until it is unrecognizable. The normal conception of Heaven and Hell involves the soul going on, unchanging, forever, and this is only possible outside of time.

Interestingly enough, this is kinda covered in Judaic understanding. God takes the blade of self will and carves off a small piece of Himself which becomes your soul. In doing so, He puts you into the space/time continium.

Additionally, John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotton Son, and whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life".

Nothing in there about being eternal. However.........there IS something in there about living forever. And, if you have a beginning (birth), then you cannot be eternal, but you CAN be forever. Think of the difference between a straight line (eternal) and a ray (forever, because it has a beginning).

There are also references to souls coming back via reincarnation in many different theologies, including Judaism.

No, you don't become eternal, you just stay forever.

 

[Dragon]

I have not remained the same, and so not remained myself, for the mere 55 years of my life to date. How is it realistic in any way for me to remain myself indefinitely and forever? And if I cease to be myself, have I not ceased to exist?

 

[ABikerSailor]

I have not remained the same, and so not remained myself, for the mere 55 years of my life to date. How is it realistic in any way for me to remain myself indefinitely and forever? And if I cease to be myself, have I not ceased to exist?

You've remained a human, and because the body is made of this dimension, it eventually will grow old and break down.

And granted, your point of view has changed, but haven't you kept pretty much the same set of core beliefs, just expanded a bit?

 

[daveman]

Well, there you go, everybody. Close the churches, burn the Bibles.

Dragon.

Has.

SPOKEN!!





Dood. You can't even explain how a television works without Googling.

And you wonder why people make fun of you?

 

[uscitizen]

Time is reltive.


42 expressed in base 13.

 

[newpolitics]

Hey Dragon, ever hear about multi dimensional reality and string theory?

PBS had a Cosmos show about the multiverse, and in the physicists' understanding, yeah.......both could exist.

And.........fwiw..........it's not Heaven or hell that are outside time, it is God Himself who is outside of time.

Are you postulating that when you die, your soul crosses dimensions to another universe and exists there? would it take on another physical form? Would it be one universe for hell and one for heaven, and god simply directs you to either depending on the moral merits of your existence?

Using the multi-verse and string theory as would be applied to heaven and hell is pretty unreasonable. It feels as if you actually agree with the OP.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Heaven, Hell, the immortal soul, all these are supposed to be eternal.

Eternity is outside time.

But all action and all change occurs within time; outside time, neither action nor change has any conceptual meaning.

Heaven is supposed to be bliss. Hell is supposed to be suffering.

Bliss and suffering are both actions or changes. Both, therefore, require time. But Heaven and Hell are conceived as eternal, outside time.

Heaven and Hell, as usually conceived, are impossible.

Another example of a poor understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Dragon]

Another example of a poor understanding of the scriptures.

Another example of a failure to present an argument.

But hey, we're not talking creation or evolution here, so maybe you won't be quite so obtuse. Worth a shot, anyway.

When you say I haven't understood the scriptures, clearly you mean that there is a scriptural meaning to the soul, heaven and hell that renders my argument here moot. Why don't you share that understanding with all of us?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Another example of a poor understanding of the scriptures.

Another example of a failure to present an argument.

But hey, we're not talking creation or evolution here, so maybe you won't be quite so obtuse. Worth a shot, anyway.

When you say I haven't understood the scriptures, clearly you mean that there is a scriptural meaning to the soul, heaven and hell that renders my argument here moot. Why don't you share that understanding with all of us?

Do i really need to do it again ?

Hell is the world of the dead,in other words the grave. If you look up the words sheol and hades you get a better picture of what hell is.

The dead are said to be in a state of sleep unitl the resurrection.

The dead are said to be conscious of nothing.

Judgment will not happen until after the resurrection.

The soul is not immortal.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarmers having a living soul; and let birds fly over the earth on the face of the expanse of the heavens.

Gen 1:21 And God created great sea-animals, and every living soul that creeps with which the waters swarmed after their kind; and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good.


Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood. And I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

The souls that sins will die not live on we all sin so at death our soul dies.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, nor shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

 

[Dragon]

Do i really need to do it again ?

No, you have to do it for the first time. As yet, the word "again" doesn't apply.

Hell is the world of the dead,in other words the grave. If you look up the words sheol and hades you get a better picture of what hell is.

The dead are said to be in a state of sleep unitl the resurrection.

The dead are said to be conscious of nothing.

Judgment will not happen until after the resurrection.

The soul is not immortal.

You're depicting a Jewish understanding here, which is quite different from the usual Christian one. But be that as it may, all you are doing is delaying the timing. If judgment happens after resurrection, then anything I've said here applies only from that point on.

The only remaining mystery is what you mean by that last sentence. If the soul is not immortal, then we are essentially in agreement: there can be no everlasting Heaven or Hell as far as the soul is able to experience. The same is true if you are referring to life in a resurrected body; that, also, would not be immortal, even if it is an unaging body that does not face natural death from old age.

But if you mean something else by that, then please explain.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Do i really need to do it again ?

No, you have to do it for the first time. As yet, the word "again" doesn't apply.

Hell is the world of the dead,in other words the grave. If you look up the words sheol and hades you get a better picture of what hell is.

The dead are said to be in a state of sleep unitl the resurrection.

The dead are said to be conscious of nothing.

Judgment will not happen until after the resurrection.

The soul is not immortal.

You're depicting a Jewish understanding here, which is quite different from the usual Christian one. But be that as it may, all you are doing is delaying the timing. If judgment happens after resurrection, then anything I've said here applies only from that point on.

The only remaining mystery is what you mean by that last sentence. If the soul is not immortal, then we are essentially in agreement: there can be no everlasting Heaven or Hell as far as the soul is able to experience. The same is true if you are referring to life in a resurrected body; that, also, would not be immortal, even if it is an unaging body that does not face natural death from old age.

But if you mean something else by that, then please explain.

We are 100% dead when we die. Nothing lives on. Many Christians make the mistake and take a scriptures out of context to mean something it doesn't by thinking we live on at death we go to heaven or hell. If this was accurate there would be no need for the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous and judgment.


Act 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

The ones raised in the first resurrection death because judgement and the second death have no hold these ones. They are the 144,000 saints that will rule with Christ. He is not gonna make us all kings and priests.

Rev 1:6 and made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.

The resurrection happens in the end times. The only ones who are ressurected 3 days like Christ are the small crowd numbered at 144,000. These are the saints that will rule with christ.

Rev 7:3 saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.


The 144,000 are the first resurrection which happens unseen to man. The second resurrection are the righteous and unrighteous.

This is the second resurrection.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

The just and unjust will be resurrected at the same time the just rersurrected to life and the unjust to eternal death in the lake of fire which is the second death.

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

What is the second death ?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[Truthmatters]

Its all myth just like any of the dead religions

 

[Tank]

Some say love is a myth

 

[hortysir]

I'm convinced.

I will now start my new life as an Atheist.

My first act will be to start a thread intent on ridiculing everyone that doesn't agree with me.

Maybe Campbellll can teach me the secret handshake and mail me my new ID card (I promise to use it to vote Democrat)

 

[Truthmatters]

Some say love is a myth

Romantic Love is a very recent concept