Health Care as a Human Right

[Taomon]

If Canada's socialized medicine is so great, why would any sane Canadian purchase private insurance?

Let me clue you. The delays for care are widespread. In some cases people have died as a result of waiting too long. Those who are not on the "serious" lists find themselves waiting and suffering in pain.

Have you spoken to any Canadians? Can you back up your claims? I have spoken to a lot of Canadians. You are dead set against socialized healthcare so you will only listen to and research data in a predetermined - biased manner. I don't think you are capable of understanding the problem because you are determined to be against any social program what so ever. How pathetic.

The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute keeps track of Canadian waiting times for various medical procedures. According to the Fraser Institute's 14th annual edition of "Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada (2004)," total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, rose from 17.7 weeks in 2003 to 17.9 weeks in 2004.

And again, there are flaws and they can be addressed. You act as though every flaw in any system is evidence that we cannot do it better and should not try.

I do not have "unreasonable" fear/loathing of socialism. One only has to look at the facts.

But you are looking historical records of corrupt regimes and ignoring the glaring historical record against capitalism and the free market system. It only works if you are in the top ten percentile and can influence the corrupt legislatures.

If marketing is "the problem" as you say, why are apples more costly than chips? I never see ads for bags of apples.

Exactly! They only want us to eat shitty food and become fat, sickly and weak. They want us to pay for every fad diet, work out video, and miracle cure that comes along. They want to advertise prescription drugs to us to convince us that a bleeding out of our colon is better than erectile dysfunction or the sniffles. They will never have coupons for apples that don't include the purchase of a mass produced item (such as candy apple ingredients). Marketing is a manufactured need. It is a form of mind control, which is what all of the academic literature will tell you point blank.

You appear to be one of those people who support the "food police". Where does it say in our Constitution that anybody has the right to tell anyone what they can or cannot eat? Don't you believe in indidividual freedom? If we go to socialized medicine the government will take away a lot of that because it will then have the power to dictate your lifestyle choices.

I believe in being honest. I believe in education. Look at our food pyramid. Look at the percentage of meat compared to the percentage of vegetables that we are told we should eat daily. It is a lie. It is sponsored by the Department of Agriculture who are influenced by very specific lobbies (grains & sugar for example). The grain industry is mostly for feed for our meat industries. The warnings about sugar have become very obscure and muddled. Think about it.

If you want to eat chips, then eat chips. But make the good foods (fruits, vegetables, water) less expensive. Minimize the advertisements for junk food. Make more PA about good food, diet & exercise. And make those marketing firms develop those PAs. That is what I believe in.

Flop houses with shared bathrooms? Sounds like college days. Yes I am suggesting we follow this model. It appears that many immigrants also like this model as they keep on coming here for the privilege of living in a flophouse because they know it is only temporary. They know they can pursue a better life here. Believe it or not nobody has the "right" to be handed anything for free. You need to work for your supper. The government has no right to take from one person and give it to another person. I suppose you are going to call me hard-hearted again for saying that…too bad. That's how Americans learn the nitty gritty of life and to value their hard won freedoms. Socialism is a form of government servitude.

And yet, I was not suggesting anything be free. You accused me of such. I said that all necessities should be affordable.

And you still haven't explained why that is bad.

Would you have liked to work under Socialism in Russia? You'd work twice as hard and get half as much.

And you are saying that people don't work hard enough so what are you trying to say? You want to work and keep all of your money to yourself, pay no taxes, have no social responsibility, and keep to your own.

I don't believe in wealth distribution! But taxes are the grease for the wheels of society. We cannot run our government on arms deals. Would you prefer Anarchy? No laws? Survival of the fittest?

That's why the Socialist propaganda today is such a lie. They promise utopia (and for some for a while this seems true) but in reality you get hell in the end.

Funny, that is what the free market is doing too. You claim the free market lets the consumers control the prices and that is not true at all. The free market allows conglomerates to take jobs away at will (capital flight) and price whatever they want for their commodities. That is a form of oppression. It is economic in nature. So most people will not make it in America. There is only so much room at the top. You do not address what becomes of the lower classes.

Less effective than anything the govt. can do? What do you think of the effectiveness of Medicare? Now there's a great example of what the govt. can do. Not.

There are flaws and we can fix them. Economically, the Medicare system works as a tight ship. Socially, it is bad now for many people. I am all for reform. We have the wrong leaders now and have had that problem for decades. Since Nixon at least.

Today's health care is not as privatized as it should be. It should be privatized to the point where you and your doctor are making your health care decisions, not an insurance company. If you think an insurance company is bad for your health care, wait until the government takes over. You want politicians managing your health care?

I don't want any private entity (individual doctors, insurance agencies, etc) to manage my healthcare. There should be oversight. There should be regulations. There should be a system of checks and balances. Why not instill civilian tribunals as an oversight system? I would be all for that.

I have been reading and thinking about your position. I don't buy it. You haven't provided any real proof that socialized medicine will work...you just have the heartfelt belief it will work.

And you refuse to consider any option other than privatized healthcare. Your views are individualistic. You don't seem to care about your fellow Americans. You don't seem to care about strangers who are also people.

IMO we don't "need" any of that stuff you claim we "need"...price controls and subsidies (other than for the core poor) are not necessary to provide our health care. Instead we need a health care system that is rid of government and insurance company interference. Once third parties get their grubby hands out of the system the market can work.

No, because there are greedy doctors. And there are plenty of historical evidence of that. We need oversight and checks & balances. We need to make sure that Doctor A is not overcharging people. We need to make sure that Doctor B is qualified and honest.

Take a look at WalMart. This is private enterprise at work without the price controls and subsidies. You can go there and buy $4 prescriptions. Believe it or not, that is helping a lot of poor and working class people. Going further, Walmart is also going to set up clinics at many of its stores. People will be able to go there and get everyday health care at a low cost. It will help take the pressure off regular clinics which should help everybody. A great boon to the poor and "disenfranchised" wouldn't you say? That's the free market at work.

WalMart also will not fill birth control and abortion pill prescriptions. here is a reason why monopolies are bad, they ultimately control what we can and cannot buy...and that is not exactly a free market system.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Have you spoken to any Canadians? Can you back up your claims? I have spoken to a lot of Canadians. You are dead set against socialized healthcare so you will only listen to and research data in a predetermined - biased manner. I don't think you are capable of understanding the problem because you are determined to be against any social program what so ever. How pathetic.
So give me proof that socialized medicine is better than free market medicine….I've been waiting for some time now….your only response has been name calling…now that's what I'd call pathetic.

And again, there are flaws and they can be addressed. You act as though every flaw in any system is evidence that we cannot do it better and should not try.
Why do you act as if the flaws in our system are evidence that we cannot do it better and should not try to correct them instead of completely turning our health care over into the hands of politicians?

No, you are the one stuck on going socialistic. You're the one who's been sold a "dream". You completely ignore my evidence that socialized medicine in Canada is not working well. How would you like to wait an average 17 WEEKS (& climbing) to have that operation you need? That's progress??

But you are looking historical records of corrupt regimes and ignoring the glaring historical record against capitalism and the free market system. It only works if you are in the top ten percentile and can influence the corrupt legislatures.
Proof please.

Exactly! They only want us to eat shitty food and become fat, sickly and weak. They want us to pay for every fad diet, work out video, and miracle cure that comes along. They want to advertise prescription drugs to us to convince us that a bleeding out of our colon is better than erectile dysfunction or the sniffles. They will never have coupons for apples that don't include the purchase of a mass produced item (such as candy apple ingredients). Marketing is a manufactured need. It is a form of mind control, which is what all of the academic literature will tell you point blank.
They want us to eat their products, but you DON'T have to eat them. If the government gets into the picture you can bet you will get dictates on what you should eat.

Marketing is nothing more than merchants trying to sell you. Ignore them and make your own choices….or are you so weak you need Big Brother to tell everybody what to do?

I believe in being honest. I believe in education. Look at our food pyramid. Look at the percentage of meat compared to the percentage of vegetables that we are told we should eat daily. It is a lie. It is sponsored by the Department of Agriculture who are influenced by very specific lobbies (grains & sugar for example). The grain industry is mostly for feed for our meat industries. The warnings about sugar have become very obscure and muddled. Think about it.

If you want to eat chips, then eat chips. But make the good foods (fruits, vegetables, water) less expensive. Minimize the advertisements for junk food. Make more PA about good food, diet & exercise. And make those marketing firms develop those PAs. That is what I believe in.
I agree with you about the food pyramid but if you are upset about the government food pyramid you are in for a lot more upsets in the future if the government takes over your health care. Think about it.

And yet, I was not suggesting anything be free. You accused me of such. I said that all necessities should be affordable.

And you still haven't explained why that is bad.
When you say "affordable" you are implying that someone selling apples must lower his market price arbitrarily in order to make them "affordable" to you or some poor working person. Who gets to pay the difference in the real cost? The government through subsidies to the apple growers? This is exactly how those lobbyists and the government wind up with power over you and the food pyramids….think about it.

And you are saying that people don't work hard enough so what are you trying to say? You want to work and keep all of your money to yourself, pay no taxes, have no social responsibility, and keep to your own.

I don't believe in wealth distribution! But taxes are the grease for the wheels of society. We cannot run our government on arms deals. Would you prefer Anarchy? No laws? Survival of the fittest?
You're starting to freak….calm down there. I'm not an anarchist. There is no way we are going to get rid of all taxes and government programs….but we need to head in that direction instead of the other.

Funny, that is what the free market is doing too. You claim the free market lets the consumers control the prices and that is not true at all. The free market allows conglomerates to take jobs away at will (capital flight) and price whatever they want for their commodities. That is a form of oppression. It is economic in nature. So most people will not make it in America. There is only so much room at the top. You do not address what becomes of the lower classes.
There you go again with your socialist mantra against big business. Big business is what has made America great. And small businesses are the backbone of America. A person can start with a little business in his garage and after a few years of hard work can become one of the biggest in the world. Think about it.

We have laws against price fixing and monopolies and have tariffs to protect industries. Change the laws if you don't like it.

There are flaws and we can fix them. Economically, the Medicare system works as a tight ship. Socially, it is bad now for many people. I am all for reform. We have the wrong leaders now and have had that problem for decades. Since Nixon at least.
Medicare is economically a tight ship? Now I know you're from lala land. Medicare is going broke… by 2018.

I don't want any private entity (individual doctors, insurance agencies, etc) to manage my healthcare. There should be oversight. There should be regulations. There should be a system of checks and balances. Why not instill civilian tribunals as an oversight system? I would be all for that.
Civilian tribunals? What for? To determine whether or not you should receive doctor care for your head injury? I vote against it....you're incurable.

And you refuse to consider any option other than privatized healthcare. Your views are individualistic. You don't seem to care about your fellow Americans. You don't seem to care about strangers who are also people.
Oh, cry me a river….I'm looking for answers that will actually work….there is ample proof that socialized medicine does not fit the bill.

No, because there are greedy doctors. And there are plenty of historical evidence of that. We need oversight and checks & balances. We need to make sure that Doctor A is not overcharging people. We need to make sure that Doctor B is qualified and honest.
Oh, now our heath care problems are all due to "greedy" doctors….more of those "greedy" capitalists right? That's why so many doctors are closing shop right? Why so many students are choosing other fields today right? What is really happening …doctors just can't afford to take on non-paying patients.

For example doctors are dropping Medicare patients because they just can't afford them. For example Medicare will pay $232 to take care of a patient's broken neck over a 90 day period. Like that paltry amount is going to cover a doctor's expenses. It costs $3500 PER DAY just to run a surgical office.
http://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=4185

WalMart also will not fill birth control and abortion pill prescriptions. here is a reason why monopolies are bad, they ultimately control what we can and cannot buy...and that is not exactly a free market system.
That's your repsonse to something that will really help poor and working class people? Obviously your mind is a shut door. WalMart is not a monopoly btw. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could name many other big stores which are competitors. FYI socialized medicine IS a monopoly.

 

[jreeves]

I think that under socialized medicine there would be less of an incentive to cheat people. I think that this cancer-stricken lady who was nearly practically left to die in the streets by this corrupt and opportunistic private health insurance company exemplifies a real problem in America.

She probably lucked out in that the insurance company apparently didn’t bribe the judge.

There are unscrupulous people in every walk of life. That doesn't mean we blow up the whole health care industry as we know it. For instance, if a prosecutor was to take bribes from a defendant, would you want to scrap the whole justice system. What we need to do is institute harsh punishments(jail time) for this type of misconduct, not scrap the entire system.

 

[Taomon]

Have you spoken to any Canadians? Can you back up your claims? I have spoken to a lot of Canadians. You are dead set against socialized healthcare so you will only listen to and research data in a predetermined - biased manner. I don't think you are capable of understanding the problem because you are determined to be against any social program what so ever. How pathetic.
So give me proof that socialized medicine is better than free market medicine….I've been waiting for some time now….your only response has been name calling…now that's what I'd call pathetic.

The only proof that socialized medicine is better is the very fact that we have millions of citizens who do not have health care or have very inadequate health care...mostly because of cost. You appear to believe that if someone cannot afford something, they do not deserve it. But everyone deserves health care. Everyone deserves medical treatment. And the same quality should be given to the poor & working class as is given to the rich. We only have two models in which to review, socialized & privatized health care.

Would you rather millions go without health care so that you won't be inconvenienced by a social program, that God Forbid helps someone who cannot afford it? Basically, it is the right thing to do. And we could simply subsidize it to make it affordable. You apparently cannot grasp that one.

And again, there are flaws and they can be addressed. You act as though every flaw in any system is evidence that we cannot do it better and should not try.
Why do you act as if the flaws in our system are evidence that we cannot do it better and should not try to correct them instead of completely turning our health care over into the hands of politicians?

Because when we leave it in the hands of businessmen (and private doctors are businessmen), we are giving up our right to have affordable medical treatment and therefore...choices. Not all politicians are corrupt. Ted Kennedy is a good man. He is always seeking to help the underdog.

The Supreme Court ruled that patients harmed by defective medical devices cannot sue the company responsible. Ted Kennedy is trying to pass legislation that gives back the rights to the patients. I would say that is honorable. He has been working on Medicare reform - especially now since Bush's plan has become so evil.

No, you are the one stuck on going socialistic. You're the one who's been sold a "dream". You completely ignore my evidence that socialized medicine in Canada is not working well. How would you like to wait an average 17 WEEKS (& climbing) to have that operation you need? That's progress??

Socialized medicine is working. You want evidence of a system that is working better than any other. No system like that exists. All health care systems are flawed. The Canadian model is working. Do we ourselves not have horror stories of privatized health care gone astray? Stop pointing the finger at Canada & the Europe and saying "see, it cannot work," and start thinking about the best feasible way to cover all US citizens. I say subsidize healthcare to drive down costs. Regulate who doctors can reject as patients so no one goes without primary care. We can do it - and it is the right thing to do.

Unnecessary operations can wait. I passed a kidney stone. That sucked big time. It took months before I could see a urologist. It took months to get past all the testing. It would take just as long for non-emergency surgery. Emergencies are one thing, non-emergencies are another. That is hardly proof that we should leave millions of US citizens without healthcare simply because we sold out to that industry.

But you are looking historical records of corrupt regimes and ignoring the glaring historical record against capitalism and the free market system. It only works if you are in the top ten percentile and can influence the corrupt legislatures.
Proof please.

You need proof that millions of people are going without health insurance because of cost and those people are all working class? We both know that the poor are covered by Medicaid (and other state plans). We both know that the rich can definitely afford health care. Do you realize that there are millions who cannot afford health insurance? Do you understand that temp agencies are not required to provide health insurance? Do you realize that their clients (the companies hiring temps) do not provide insurance? Do you understand under-employed people cannot afford health insurance?

You need proof?

Exactly! They only want us to eat shitty food and become fat, sickly and weak. They want us to pay for every fad diet, work out video, and miracle cure that comes along. They want to advertise prescription drugs to us to convince us that a bleeding out of our colon is better than erectile dysfunction or the sniffles. They will never have coupons for apples that don't include the purchase of a mass produced item (such as candy apple ingredients). Marketing is a manufactured need. It is a form of mind control, which is what all of the academic literature will tell you point blank.
They want us to eat their products, but you DON'T have to eat them. If the government gets into the picture you can bet you will get dictates on what you should eat.

Right, and if you make $30,000 and have children, pay rent, pay utilities, pay for clothing, pay for school stuff (lunch, materials for homework assignments, etc), pay for gasoline & car insurance...when you have a limited amount of money to buy food, the bag of chips will stretch further than the amount of apples for the same price.

When we are inundated with advertisements, commercial jingles, status symbols, etc that manipulates what we consider to be necessary. But let's not forget the whole schoolyard thing. How many of us have been victim to or victimized others in school because of a lack of status symbol items.

And you wonder why we have school shootings? We are judged by possessions. And that inundation of marketing perpetuates it. I am only suggesting we cut back on advertisements and replace them with PAs. Why would that be wrong?

Marketing is nothing more than merchants trying to sell you. Ignore them and make your own choices….or are you so weak you need Big Brother to tell everybody what to do?

I am not weak. But many people are. If you watch 1/2 and hour of television, how many commercials do you see? How many product placements in any given show? A lot of it is subliminal. We must cut back on that. Why would that be wrong?

I believe in being honest. I believe in education. Look at our food pyramid. Look at the percentage of meat compared to the percentage of vegetables that we are told we should eat daily. It is a lie. It is sponsored by the Department of Agriculture who are influenced by very specific lobbies (grains & sugar for example). The grain industry is mostly for feed for our meat industries. The warnings about sugar have become very obscure and muddled. Think about it.

If you want to eat chips, then eat chips. But make the good foods (fruits, vegetables, water) less expensive. Minimize the advertisements for junk food. Make more PA about good food, diet & exercise. And make those marketing firms develop those PAs. That is what I believe in.
I agree with you about the food pyramid but if you are upset about the government food pyramid you are in for a lot more upsets in the future if the government takes over your health care. Think about it.

No, we just need the lobbys out of it, we need the right people to develop the system. You are angry because you know you cannot trust the government. But we cannot leave it to the private investors neither. Our political system was developed to allow us to take control of our destinies. Are you willing to make a sacrifice like this; develop a healthcare system that will take the flaws of socialized medicine and correct them? Can you instead develop a subsidies program to lower the cost? I am willing to do that. Are you? It takes people like us to develop the idea, sell it to the powers that be and implement it.

And yet, I was not suggesting anything be free. You accused me of such. I said that all necessities should be affordable.

And you still haven't explained why that is bad.
When you say "affordable" you are implying that someone selling apples must lower his market price arbitrarily in order to make them "affordable" to you or some poor working person. Who gets to pay the difference in the real cost? The government through subsidies to the apple growers? This is exactly how those lobbyists and the government wind up with power over you and the food pyramids….think about it.

No, the lobbys are attorneys who work for the industries that they represent. The money for the lobbys comes from that industry. They influence where subsidies go. We must remove all lobbys. We must remove corrupt politicians. We must have subsidies for necessary commodities (food, clothing, shelter, health care, education). Subsidies are paid regardless of whether you like it or not. They are generally paid to businesses like Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, etc. That money should go to the people by lowering the cost of living.

And you are saying that people don't work hard enough so what are you trying to say? You want to work and keep all of your money to yourself, pay no taxes, have no social responsibility, and keep to your own.

I don't believe in wealth distribution! But taxes are the grease for the wheels of society. We cannot run our government on arms deals. Would you prefer Anarchy? No laws? Survival of the fittest?
You're starting to freak….calm down there. I'm not an anarchist. There is no way we are going to get rid of all taxes and government programs….but we need to head in that direction instead of the other.

Why? I agree that I want most of the money I earn. I also agree that I must pay into the system. I don't like paying excise tax, but I do it.

Funny, that is what the free market is doing too. You claim the free market lets the consumers control the prices and that is not true at all. The free market allows conglomerates to take jobs away at will (capital flight) and price whatever they want for their commodities. That is a form of oppression. It is economic in nature. So most people will not make it in America. There is only so much room at the top. You do not address what becomes of the lower classes.
There you go again with your socialist mantra against big business. Big business is what has made America great. And small businesses are the backbone of America. A person can start with a little business in his garage and after a few years of hard work can become one of the biggest in the world. Think about it.

How many small businesses have been swallowed up by big businesses. How many mom & pop stores were devastated by Wal-Mart? Think about it.

We have laws against price fixing and monopolies and have tariffs to protect industries. Change the laws if you don't like it.

That is my intention.

There are flaws and we can fix them. Economically, the Medicare system works as a tight ship. Socially, it is bad now for many people. I am all for reform. We have the wrong leaders now and have had that problem for decades. Since Nixon at least.
Medicare is economically a tight ship? Now I know you're from lala land. Medicare is going broke… by 2018.

According to Bush?

I don't want any private entity (individual doctors, insurance agencies, etc) to manage my healthcare. There should be oversight. There should be regulations. There should be a system of checks and balances. Why not instill civilian tribunals as an oversight system? I would be all for that.
Civilian tribunals? What for? To determine whether or not you should receive doctor care for your head injury? I vote against it....you're incurable.

Civilian tribunals to act as a checks and balance. They would be a resource for the patients. Why should the businesses have all the rights and the consumers have none?

And you refuse to consider any option other than privatized healthcare. Your views are individualistic. You don't seem to care about your fellow Americans. You don't seem to care about strangers who are also people.
Oh, cry me a river….I'm looking for answers that will actually work….there is ample proof that socialized medicine does not fit the bill.

And again, the same can be said of privatized health care. But all along I have said simply to subsidize it to drive the cost down and to control the prices so that people are not over charged for expenses. But you are stuck on this socialized medicine thing.

No, because there are greedy doctors. And there are plenty of historical evidence of that. We need oversight and checks & balances. We need to make sure that Doctor A is not overcharging people. We need to make sure that Doctor B is qualified and honest.
Oh, now our heath care problems are all due to "greedy" doctors….more of those "greedy" capitalists right? That's why so many doctors are closing shop right? Why so many students are choosing other fields today right? What is really happening …doctors just can't afford to take on non-paying patients.

Greed (doctors, facilities, insurance companies) is a big factor, and you known this is true. So if people not paying is an issue, subsidize healthcare so they can afford to pay. 9 times out of 10, people don't pay because they cannot afford it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a syndrome that we are all familiar with I am sure...except for you because you live in a perfect world.

For example doctors are dropping Medicare patients because they just can't afford them. For example Medicare will pay $232 to take care of a patient's broken neck over a 90 day period. Like that paltry amount is going to cover a doctor's expenses. It costs $3500 PER DAY just to run a surgical office.

So subsidize it so his expenses are covered or are are lowered. But really, we need to examine the industries that bill in that amount. They (the medical devices companies, pharma-companies, medical facilities, etc) over charge for services. Ever stay in a hospital? You are charge for everything.

WalMart also will not fill birth control and abortion pill prescriptions. here is a reason why monopolies are bad, they ultimately control what we can and cannot buy...and that is not exactly a free market system.
That's your repsonse to something that will really help poor and working class people? Obviously your mind is a shut door. WalMart is not a monopoly btw. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could name many other big stores which are competitors. FYI socialized medicine IS a monopoly.

Look who is calling whom a closed mind. Wal-Mart has competition. It is called Target. Target is a little more expensive. Wal-Mart is trying to model themselves after Target. So prices will go up.

But my point was, if the poor & working classes need to go to Wal-Mart because they cannot afford to go elsewhere, and Wal-Mart refuses certain prescriptions, they limit what is on the market. That is not a free market system. The consumer is not controlling marketability, the retailers are.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

The only proof that socialized medicine is better is the very fact that we have millions of citizens who do not have health care or have very inadequate health care...mostly because of cost. You appear to believe that if someone cannot afford something, they do not deserve it. But everyone deserves health care. Everyone deserves medical treatment. And the same quality should be given to the poor & working class as is given to the rich. We only have two models in which to review, socialized & privatized health care.

Would you rather millions go without health care so that you won't be inconvenienced by a social program, that God Forbid helps someone who cannot afford it? Basically, it is the right thing to do. And we could simply subsidize it to make it affordable. You apparently cannot grasp that one.
Everyone deserves to eat too. Do you think we should hand out free food to everyone as well?

Again, you have not yet provided me with any proof that socialized medicine is better than free market care. You have not answered the question why do so many Canadians buy private insurance. If you think that the U.S. should downgrade its care so that paying customers must wait 4 months in pain for an operation or put up with patient stacking waiting over 4 hours at the emergency rooms you're crazy. Under socialized medicine you may have the "right" to health care, but if the care is not available when you need it, what's so great about socialized medicine?


Because when we leave it in the hands of businessmen (and private doctors are businessmen), we are giving up our right to have affordable medical treatment and therefore...choices. Not all politicians are corrupt. Ted Kennedy is a good man. He is always seeking to help the underdog.

The Supreme Court ruled that patients harmed by defective medical devices cannot sue the company responsible. Ted Kennedy is trying to pass legislation that gives back the rights to the patients. I would say that is honorable. He has been working on Medicare reform - especially now since Bush's plan has become so evil.
America has the greatest health care in the world. It's because we have a free market system. Of course lots of doctors are businessmen too. Most become doctors because they want to make good money while also attaining prestige as well as the good feeling of helping others. Many doctors start up their own clinics because they like to run things their own way. You take those many incentives away and you will find that lots of would-be doctors will seek out other fields of endeavor. Smart people don't want to become government drones. Think how much that will negatively impact our health care.

The Supreme Court ruled on devices that were already approved by the FDA. Guess the government is not doing its job very well in that department either.


Socialized medicine is working. You want evidence of a system that is working better than any other. No system like that exists. All health care systems are flawed. The Canadian model is working. Do we ourselves not have horror stories of privatized health care gone astray? Stop pointing the finger at Canada & the Europe and saying "see, it cannot work," and start thinking about the best feasible way to cover all US citizens. I say subsidize healthcare to drive down costs. Regulate who doctors can reject as patients so no one goes without primary care. We can do it - and it is the right thing to do.

Unnecessary operations can wait. I passed a kidney stone. That sucked big time. It took months before I could see a urologist. It took months to get past all the testing. It would take just as long for non-emergency surgery. Emergencies are one thing, non-emergencies are another. That is hardly proof that we should leave millions of US citizens without healthcare simply because we sold out to that industry.
The Canadian model is NOT working better than ours. Neither is the British model. I've already given you proof of that. At least you can get care here when you need it. Got any other models you want to point to?

You keep harping on the fact that about 12% here in America do not have health care. Can you identify those people for me precisely? I'll bet you'll find that lots of those people choose not to buy health care even though they could. Also, I'll bet lots of those people are illegal immigrants who just use our emergency rooms for "free" health care. Those are the ones who are driving many good hospitals into financial ruin.


You need proof that millions of people are going without health insurance because of cost and those people are all working class? We both know that the poor are covered by Medicaid (and other state plans). We both know that the rich can definitely afford health care. Do you realize that there are millions who cannot afford health insurance? Do you understand that temp agencies are not required to provide health insurance? Do you realize that their clients (the companies hiring temps) do not provide insurance? Do you understand under-employed people cannot afford health insurance?

You need proof?
I need proof that the free market system as you said "only works if you are in the top ten percentile and can influence corrupt legislatures".


Right, and if you make $30,000 and have children, pay rent, pay utilities, pay for clothing, pay for school stuff (lunch, materials for homework assignments, etc), pay for gasoline & car insurance...when you have a limited amount of money to buy food, the bag of chips will stretch further than the amount of apples for the same price.

When we are inundated with advertisements, commercial jingles, status symbols, etc that manipulates what we consider to be necessary. But let's not forget the whole schoolyard thing. How many of us have been victim to or victimized others in school because of a lack of status symbol items.

And you wonder why we have school shootings? We are judged by possessions. And that inundation of marketing perpetuates it. I am only suggesting we cut back on advertisements and replace them with PAs. Why would that be wrong?
Obviously you want a nanny state to tell everybody what to do and to take care of you.


I am not weak. But many people are. If you watch 1/2 and hour of television, how many commercials do you see? How many product placements in any given show? A lot of it is subliminal. We must cut back on that. Why would that be wrong?
So just because you think you are strong you have the right to dictate what everybody must do?


No, we just need the lobbys out of it, we need the right people to develop the system. You are angry because you know you cannot trust the government. But we cannot leave it to the private investors neither. Our political system was developed to allow us to take control of our destinies. Are you willing to make a sacrifice like this; develop a healthcare system that will take the flaws of socialized medicine and correct them? Can you instead develop a subsidies program to lower the cost? I am willing to do that. Are you? It takes people like us to develop the idea, sell it to the powers that be and implement it.
Who are the "right people"? People like you? LOL. In a truly free market system the lobbyists would be out of the picture because government would also be out of the picture. Sellers will get to sell to customers who want to buy. Customers will buy from those who sell products that they like. This is a bottom-up approach as opposed to a top-down approach. In other words, the People make their OWN choices….not some elite few who think they know what's best for everybody. A free market system shakes out what does not work. A free market system will provide products for all levels of income. A free market system will bring down costs.


No, the lobbys are attorneys who work for the industries that they represent. The money for the lobbys comes from that industry. They influence where subsidies go. We must remove all lobbys. We must remove corrupt politicians. We must have subsidies for necessary commodities (food, clothing, shelter, health care, education). Subsidies are paid regardless of whether you like it or not. They are generally paid to businesses like Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, etc. That money should go to the people by lowering the cost of living.
I think the government should get out of the subsidy business. Let the free market work. If you want separate government aid to the poor, OK, but don't we already have that?


Why? I agree that I want most of the money I earn. I also agree that I must pay into the system. I don't like paying excise tax, but I do it.
If you want most of the money you earn then you don't want a socialized state.

How many small businesses have been swallowed up by big businesses. How many mom & pop stores were devastated by Wal-Mart? Think about it.
Think how many new mom & pop businesses have started up after the old ones went by the wayside. The free market business world is an ever-changing and dynamic model.

That is my intention.
And it's my intention to keep nanny stater socialists like you out of my life.

According to Bush?
What a dodo bird. Get informed. That info has only been around for oh, years.

Civilian tribunals to act as a checks and balance. They would be a resource for the patients. Why should the businesses have all the rights and the consumers have none?
Consumers have consumer advocates. Consumers have legal options. Civilian tribunals as you envision them would be nothing more than another layer of government bureaucracy. More of the nanny state you like so much.

And again, the same can be said of privatized health care.
But all along I have said simply to subsidize it to drive the cost down and to control the prices so that people are not over charged for expenses. But you are stuck on this socialized medicine thing.
Like I said before the government needs to get out of the subsidy business. I also thought you hated lobbyists....they go right along with subsidies. Private care today works just fine for those that pay for it. That's more than 85% of our country. People are complaining about the higher costs which are due to many things….those are the things we should be addressing….such as illegals sucking the system dry, too much government regulation and interference, too much insurance company interference, unfair taxation, etc.

Greed (doctors, facilities, insurance companies) is a big factor, and you known this is true. So if people not paying is an issue, subsidize healthcare so they can afford to pay. 9 times out of 10, people don't pay because they cannot afford it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a syndrome that we are all familiar with I am sure...except for you because you live in a perfect world.
When the government subsidizes anything prices always go up. Wrong approach.

So subsidize it so his expenses are covered or are are lowered. But really, we need to examine the industries that bill in that amount. They (the medical devices companies, pharma-companies, medical facilities, etc) over charge for services. Ever stay in a hospital? You are charge for everything.
You think $232 is enough for a spinal surgeon's care for 90 days? Get real. Again, subsidies are the wrong approach. You are charged more because you are paying for those who cannot pay plus greed still will exist. If you want the government to help the poor, why not just have the govt. pay for the poor directly for their health insurance? Leave the rest of us out of it.


Look who is calling whom a closed mind. Wal-Mart has competition. It is called Target. Target is a little more expensive. Wal-Mart is trying to model themselves after Target. So prices will go up.

But my point was, if the poor & working classes need to go to Wal-Mart because they cannot afford to go elsewhere, and Wal-Mart refuses certain prescriptions, they limit what is on the market. That is not a free market system. The consumer is not controlling marketability, the retailers are.[/QUOTE]
Of course WalMart has competition. That was my point. I'm sure there is a WalMart competitor or a Mom&Pop store who is willing to sell birth control and abortion pills. That's the free market at work.

Now you're crying that the poor people "can't afford" to buy birth control and abortion pills at those higher priced places. Now you say they "need" to buy them at WalMart. What? Just a minute ago you were complaining about WalMart replacing all those higher priced Mom&Pop stores. Which is it bozo? You want WalMart or not? At least get your stupid complaints straight…

Why is it people like you will denigrate the very thing that helps the poor? WalMart is going to set up low cost heath clinics which will help thousands of low income people. Walmart already offers low cost $4 prescriptions for generic medicines which helps the budgets of thousands of low income people. Yet you still want to destroy WalMart. Of course it's because you are socialists who hate free enterprise. The very fact that you attack WalMart for not selling abortion pills means your slip is showing….you are agenda-driven and want to impose your secular progressive ideals & morality upon private citizens and private business.

 

[Diuretic]

That's some serious obsessive behaviour - you got health insurance?

 

[mattskramer]

Everyone deserves to eat too. Do you think we should hand out free food to everyone as well?

If people are too poor to afford food or can’t get to food – yes. Thankfully, we have Caritas and “Meals on Wheels” – two great charities. We also have WIC and Food Stamps.

 

[Diuretic]

If people are too poor to afford food or can’t get to food – yes. Thankfully, we have Caritas and “Meals on Wheels” – two great charities. We also have WIC and Food Stamps.

It depends also if people have the capacity/capability to provide their own food. If they have some land (like a reasonable size back garden) they can plant vegetables. If they have the equipment and the skill and they're not living downtown they can hunt or fish. Everyone is free to do those things if they have the potential to do them. Problem is that in our highly urbanised societies (yours and mine) the skills have been lost, we're all (me included) used to having someone else do it all for us.

What's all this leading to?

Simple.

Food is a commodity.

Should health care be a commodity?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If people are too poor to afford food or can’t get to food – yes. Thankfully, we have Caritas and “Meals on Wheels” – two great charities. We also have WIC and Food Stamps.

I guess I worded that wrong. My question meant should we hand out food to EVERYBODY in the sense that the source of your food would only be through a socialized government program….much like socialized health care….

You would not be able to go to a regular grocery store and buy food of your own choice, you can only go to a government food store.

You would get the same food that everybody else got. (boring and bland...hope you like government cheese)

Your food would be rationed. (especially for you overweight people).

If you like Coke or Frosted Flakes, too bad, they've been banned by the Food Police. Beer is strictly rationed. And those T-bones? Forget 'em.

You would get to wait in loooong lines at the government stores to pick up your rations (like at the DMV).

Government food stores would not be the attractive, clean places like the grocery stores of today.

You would get to deal with surly government employees, not the nice and attentive grocery store employees you find today in the free markets.

Due to government red tape and hangups sometimes the food you wanted/needed would not be available and you get to wait for it. For example, coffee or butter could disappear for months.

You would need to have an annually approved ID and approved ration card in order to obtain food. Take a number.

Liking it so far?

….welcome to socialized heath…er, I mean....socialized food stores.

 

[M14 Shooter]

"At the core of the idea that health care is a human right is freedom...

You have the absolute freedom to pursue whatever health care you want.

What you do NOT have the right to do is expect that someone else will pay for that health care -- as in doing so you are taking away someone else's freedom.