Hate Crimes Without Hate?

[Madeline]

Some New York prosecutors are using a hate crimes enhancement to get stiffer penalties for crimes against the elderly. The theory is that the defendants have a belief about the ease with which the elderly can be defrauded, etc. but do not necessarily involve any hatred.

What say you? To me, this seems like a good result but a bad method.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/23/nyregion/23hate.html?hpw

 

[The Rabbi]

What is a "hate crime"? You don't kill someone because you love that person. Any crime is a hate crime considered broadly enough. Pretty soon making jokes about the prophet Muhammed will be considered a hate crime.
The whole thing is stupid.

 

[uscitizen]

I say only one penalty for any crime.

DEATH!

Watch crime rates drop.

 

[Madeline]

I think they do need stiffer penalties. Apparently, in New York, there is no jail time for a theft of funds of less than $1 Million. Many (most) elderly would be rendered impoverished by such a theft -- they deserve protection from criminals as well.

 

[The Rabbi]

I think they do need stiffer penalties. Apparently, in New York, there is no jail time for a theft of funds of less than $1 Million. Many (most) elderly would be rendered impoverished by such a theft -- they deserve protection from criminals as well.

How will sentencing people protect the elderly? And why is terming it a hate crime the right way to do it?

 

[Baruch Menachem]

This issue needs to be addressed by appropriate action in albany, not by having prosecutors go off the reservation and be creative.

One of the reasons people were afraid of 'hate crime' legislation was just because prosecutors would get creative with it. Mostly the fear was that they would use it to prosecute les magestie and that kind of thing, but this shows the danger of the legislation.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Some New York prosecutors are using a hate crimes enhancement to get stiffer penalties for crimes against the elderly. The theory is that the defendants have a belief about the ease with which the elderly can be defrauded, etc. but do not necessarily involve any hatred.

What say you? To me, this seems like a good result but a bad method.

Queens Prosecutors Make Use of Broader Vision on Hate Crimes - NYTimes.com

I didn't know that the elderly were incorporated in hate crime legislation, as it seems simple enough to write a law with an age limit, you know, like 'early bird specials'...
So if the aim is to include the entire class of 'elderly,' specify an age.


But a former major of our great city once made this statement about the original idea of hate crimes...which focused on black-white crime. He said it's silly to try to read minds. Make any crime committed by a member of one race against a member of another, a hate crime.
Makes sense to me.

 

[Madeline]

I think they do need stiffer penalties. Apparently, in New York, there is no jail time for a theft of funds of less than $1 Million. Many (most) elderly would be rendered impoverished by such a theft -- they deserve protection from criminals as well.

How will sentencing people protect the elderly? And why is terming it a hate crime the right way to do it?

I did not say it was a good idea to use hate crime enhancements. What I said was, "a good idea but a bad method". I happen to think it is possible that stiffer penalities deter crimes to a degree, and I am such an asshole I think if you bankrupt an elderly person through fraud, you should do time even if that victim was not wealthy.

 

[Coyote]

Some New York prosecutors are using a hate crimes enhancement to get stiffer penalties for crimes against the elderly. The theory is that the defendants have a belief about the ease with which the elderly can be defrauded, etc. but do not necessarily involve any hatred.

What say you? To me, this seems like a good result but a bad method.

Queens Prosecutors Make Use of Broader Vision on Hate Crimes - NYTimes.com

It's a form of the "ends justifies the means" - I don't agree with it. I have very mixed feelings on "hate crime" legislation anyway and this pretty much sums up how it can be abused. Fraud is wrong no matter what, it doesn't need non-exhistent hate crime definitions.

 

[jgbkab]

I say only one penalty for any crime.

DEATH!

Watch crime rates drop.

Hmm if that was the case, how many people would a suspect kill just to get away from the police for shoplifting or writing a bad check?

 

[Madeline]

Some New York prosecutors are using a hate crimes enhancement to get stiffer penalties for crimes against the elderly. The theory is that the defendants have a belief about the ease with which the elderly can be defrauded, etc. but do not necessarily involve any hatred.

What say you? To me, this seems like a good result but a bad method.

Queens Prosecutors Make Use of Broader Vision on Hate Crimes - NYTimes.com

It's a form of the "ends justifies the means" - I don't agree with it. I have very mixed feelings on "hate crime" legislation anyway and this pretty much sums up how it can be abused. Fraud is wrong no matter what, it doesn't need non-exhistent hate crime definitions.

I might even favor a separate crime for defrauding an elderly victim, with a stiffer sentence. What seems in error to me is the use of a hate crime enhancer to beef up the sentence to what the DA believes it should be. The DA might be correct, but the proper redress is to lobby the capitol for changes, not to jerry-rig the indictment.

 

[Zander]

Thought crimes! Coming to you soon!!

 

[Barb]

I think they do need stiffer penalties. Apparently, in New York, there is no jail time for a theft of funds of less than $1 Million. Many (most) elderly would be rendered impoverished by such a theft -- they deserve protection from criminals as well.

How will sentencing people protect the elderly? And why is terming it a hate crime the right way to do it?

That was the point of the OP. Maddie approved of the protections for the most vulnerable, but questioned the proposed method.

 

[dilloduck]

Thought crimes! Coming to you soon!!

Exactly----hate crimes are bullshit.

 

[Coyote]

Some New York prosecutors are using a hate crimes enhancement to get stiffer penalties for crimes against the elderly. The theory is that the defendants have a belief about the ease with which the elderly can be defrauded, etc. but do not necessarily involve any hatred.

What say you? To me, this seems like a good result but a bad method.

Queens Prosecutors Make Use of Broader Vision on Hate Crimes - NYTimes.com

It's a form of the "ends justifies the means" - I don't agree with it. I have very mixed feelings on "hate crime" legislation anyway and this pretty much sums up how it can be abused. Fraud is wrong no matter what, it doesn't need non-exhistent hate crime definitions.

I might even favor a separate crime for defrauding an elderly victim, with a stiffer sentence. What seems in error to me is the use of a hate crime enhancer to beef up the sentence to what the DA believes it should be. The DA might be correct, but the proper redress is to lobby the capitol for changes, not to jerry-rig the indictment.

I could agree with that too since the elderly are more vulnerable to fraud - change the laws!

 

[driveby]

"Hate crimes" = Opportunities for political grandstanding, race baiting, demonizing, etc...

 

[George Costanza]

But a former mayor of our great city once made this statement about the original idea of hate crimes...which focused on black-white crime. He said it's silly to try to read minds. Make any crime committed by a member of one race against a member of another, a hate crime.
Makes sense to me.

It is not necessary to "read minds" in order to prosecute a hate crime. Hate crimes are not filed unless the motivation for the attack clearly appears from statements which the attacker made just prior to and during the actual attack. It is not too difficult to figure out what is going on when some skinhead is screaming racial slurs at a black person while he is coming at him with a knife or a baseball bat. You don't have to "read minds" at all.

 

[William Joyce]

Pretty easy to just increase the sentencing for elderly victims. A few states do that. I do agree with tougher action there... most elderly come from a time when there was more trust. We know live in Obama's America...

Odd statute:

New York’s law is ambiguous. It says prosecutors must prove only a crime was committed “because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person.”

Belief or perception about what? It doesn't say anything negative, necessarily. If the crooks believe elderly folks are easier targets, that's apparently an ACCURATE belief.