Happy Birthday to Julius Caesar

[Polishprince]

Delivered by C-section this date in 100 BC.

Undoubtably one of the greatest dudes in world history, he met his end at the hands of his BFF, Brutus.


His last words were "et tu, Brute" "And you, Brutus" If Mr. Caesar had not passed away, he'd be 2,118 years old today.

 

[Penelope]

Happy Birthday JC.

 

[mikegriffith1]

If you really want to understand Julius Caesar, I think you must read Michael Parenti's book The Assassination of Julius Caesar: A People's History of Ancient Rome and Adrian Goldsworthy's book Caesar: Life of a Colossus.

These two books debunk the common myths about Caesar and his enemies, the optimates, that you find in most other books on ancient Rome. Contrary to popular mythology, Caesar was not a bloodthirsty dictator, and the optimates (such as Cicero, Cato, Brutus, and Plutarch) were not sterling defenders of republican liberty but were much more worried about maintaining their stranglehold on power and wealth.

 

[Lincoln1976]

quite right there,Mike.As for Brutus: it is very likley that he was Cesar illegitimate son,since Cesar and his mother were long term lovers...in case you didn't know...it explains Cesar's extreme clemencu with Brutus.

Interestingly,the Republic's powerful had established a system of "non movement" in which they were in power and no real reform took place and Cesar came in as a populist...reminds me of our current times

 

[mikegriffith1]

quite right there,Mike.As for Brutus: it is very likley that he was Cesar illegitimate son,since Cesar and his mother were long term lovers...in case you didn't know...it explains Cesar's extreme clemencu with Brutus.

Interestingly,the Republic's powerful had established a system of "non movement" in which they were in power and no real reform took place and Cesar came in as a populist...reminds me of our current times

Yes, indeed. Caesar was by no means imposing confiscatory redistribution but just modest, reasonable redistribution. The rich were still quite rich under him, but they still could not stand to see their money used to help others far less fortunate than themselves.

 

[Lincoln1976]

quite right there,Mike.As for Brutus: it is very likley that he was Cesar illegitimate son,since Cesar and his mother were long term lovers...in case you didn't know...it explains Cesar's extreme clemencu with Brutus.

Interestingly,the Republic's powerful had established a system of "non movement" in which they were in power and no real reform took place and Cesar came in as a populist...reminds me of our current times

Yes, indeed. Caesar was by no means imposing confiscatory redistribution but just modest, reasonable redistribution. The rich were still quite rich under him, but they still could not stand to see their money used to help others far less fortunate than themselves.

I wouldn't apply the modern concept of socialism on the situation back than.
Rather look at Cesar as an ancient Trump.The political stalemate back than is comparable to todays deadlock in politics (eg "the swamp") and as President Trump today,Julius Cesar back than has managed to break the "never move" attitude of the entrenched elites which served exclusivley themselves.

Julius Cesar did buy himself support,the backing of the people and that wasn't something that was done before,yet it had very little in common with our concept of "social justice" (sorry,the term is so tainted now,it almost makes me puke to use it).

The biggest issue in Cesar's time was,that nothing moved politically...Sulla tried a few years before,but he upheld the republic and retired from his position as dictator for which Cesar called him and political illiterate or something to that effect (not in his face of course,Sulla was already dead than),cause his reforms were immidiatley rebuffed after he left office.

One interesting point is,that Cesar profitted greatly from Sulla's reforms of the legions pension scheme,he introduced,cause before that,Roman citizens who were finally discharged from the military service after years,found themselves homeless and mostly piss poor and it was Sulla's reform (the land giving specially) which tied legions to their military commander rather than the Senat,which enabled those bloody Roman civil wars

 

[OldLady]

Caesar His son, Caesarion

He doesn't look a lot like his Pa, does he? Maybe he takes after his mother. Or maybe Caesar was not his father at all.

Caesar was probably not born by Caesarion section, since it was only performed if the mother had died or was about dead. Caesar's mother lived many years after his birth. (The term was no doubt because the law was passed during Caesar's rule that any pregnant woman who died, they would perform the surgery to try and save the child.) Caesar salad wasn't invented or named after him, either. It was invented by Caesar Cardini in Tijuana Mexico in 1924.

But Happy Birthday anyway, Caesar!

 

[Lincoln1976]

View attachment 274231
Caesar His son, Caesarion

He doesn't look a lot like his Pa, does he? Maybe he takes after his mother. Or maybe Caesar was not his father at all.

He was probably not born by Caesarion section, since it was only performed if the mother had died or was about dead. Caesar's mother lived many years after his birth. (The term was no doubt because the law was passed during Caesar's rule that any pregnant woman who died, they would perform the surgery to try and save the child.) Caesar salad wasn't invented or named after him, either. It was invented by Caesar Cardini in Tijuana Mexico in 1924.

But Happy Birthday anyway, Caesar!

Bit hard to tell by the bustes, since the Egyptians used the Greece style of idealized satutes with a mix of Egyptian style which was even more stylistic (some periodical exceptions are known of course).
So,no big surprise in my opinion that there is not an exact match...Romans on the other hand diverted fairly soon from the (once dominant) Greek style, becomming far more realistic.

Cesar wasn't born by cesarian section, that is absolutley true...he claimed it in order to spin his legend and that was one of his most visible character traits...and it was very effective...

The German title of "Kaiser" derives from Cesar's name

 

[OldLady]

View attachment 274231
Caesar His son, Caesarion

He doesn't look a lot like his Pa, does he? Maybe he takes after his mother. Or maybe Caesar was not his father at all.

He was probably not born by Caesarion section, since it was only performed if the mother had died or was about dead. Caesar's mother lived many years after his birth. (The term was no doubt because the law was passed during Caesar's rule that any pregnant woman who died, they would perform the surgery to try and save the child.) Caesar salad wasn't invented or named after him, either. It was invented by Caesar Cardini in Tijuana Mexico in 1924.

But Happy Birthday anyway, Caesar!

Bit hard to tell by the bustes, since the Egyptians used the Greece style of idealized satutes with a mix of Egyptian style which was even more stylist (some periodical exceptions are known of course).
So,no big surprise in my opinion that there is not an exact math...Romans on the other hand diverted fairly soon from the (once dominant) Greek style, becomming far more realistic.

Cesar wasn't born by cesarian section, that is absolutley true...he claimed it in order to spin his legend and that was one of his most visible character traits...and it was very effective...

The German title of "Kaiser" derives from Cesar's name

I don't know--Caesarion looks like a real person to me. Oh, well, no sense arguing about it.

 

[OldLady]

Cleopatra. Features a lot like Caesarion's. Well, we do KNOW that's his mom.

 

[Lincoln1976]

View attachment 274231
Caesar His son, Caesarion

He doesn't look a lot like his Pa, does he? Maybe he takes after his mother. Or maybe Caesar was not his father at all.

He was probably not born by Caesarion section, since it was only performed if the mother had died or was about dead. Caesar's mother lived many years after his birth. (The term was no doubt because the law was passed during Caesar's rule that any pregnant woman who died, they would perform the surgery to try and save the child.) Caesar salad wasn't invented or named after him, either. It was invented by Caesar Cardini in Tijuana Mexico in 1924.

But Happy Birthday anyway, Caesar!

Bit hard to tell by the bustes, since the Egyptians used the Greece style of idealized satutes with a mix of Egyptian style which was even more stylist (some periodical exceptions are known of course).
So,no big surprise in my opinion that there is not an exact math...Romans on the other hand diverted fairly soon from the (once dominant) Greek style, becomming far more realistic.

Cesar wasn't born by cesarian section, that is absolutley true...he claimed it in order to spin his legend and that was one of his most visible character traits...and it was very effective...

The German title of "Kaiser" derives from Cesar's name

I don't know--Caesarion looks like a real person to me. Oh, well, no sense arguing about it.

Look closely at Cesar's buste...note the wrinkles or that his right eye's brow is pushed down..the face is asymetric and therefore reflects the reality and so we know, that that is a real life impression of Cesar....now compare it with Cesarion's buste..in typical classical Greek fashion, the face is symetrical, the eyes have clean cut lines, the cheeks are rather plumb and the mouth frozen in a stoic pasture...the idea was to depict humans in a highly idealized way, rather than with "warts and all" (as Cromwell once put it so fittingly)...the Romans started out copying the Greek style, but by late republican times had already diverted from it, preferring the realistic look which was in keeping with their (at least outwardly displayed) humbleness

 

[Lincoln1976]

View attachment 274252

Cleopatra. Features a lot like Caesarion's. Well, we do KNOW that's his mom.

Well, there you have it: look again at her face...absolutely symetrical and perfect...but of course not realistic and that's what makes it so hard to exactually tell, what she or her son actually looked like in real life...we have Roman reports from her, but that's not absolutely helpful either, since everyone has of course a different perception.

Those busts were often made, using the image of a god or godess as base and than project only certain features on to that...we have strong indications, that Cleopatra wasn't really beautiful for instance...she was said to have a rather large nose and strong cheek bones..as I said...very hard to tell the real life look from any Greek or Egyptian statue or buste...Alexander the Great comes to mind as well btw

 

[norwegen]

Delivered by C-section this date in 100 BC.

Undoubtably one of the greatest dudes in world history, he met his end at the hands of his BFF, Brutus.


His last words were "et tu, Brute" "And you, Brutus" If Mr. Caesar had not passed away, he'd be 2,118 years old today.

Oh, dang.

Too bad he passed away.

 

[OldLady]

View attachment 274252

Cleopatra. Features a lot like Caesarion's. Well, we do KNOW that's his mom.

Well, there you have it: look again at her face...absolutely symetrical and perfect...but of course not realistic and that's what makes it so hard to exactually tell, what she or her son actually looked like in real life...we have Roman reports from her, but that's not absolutely helpful either, since everyone has of course a different perception.

Those busts were often made, using the image of a god or godess as base and than project only certain features on to that...we have strong indications, that Cleopatra wasn't really beautiful for instance...she was said to have a rather large nose and strong cheek bones..as I said...very hard to tell the real life look from any Greek or Egyptian statue or buste...Alexander the Great comes to mind as well btw

Okay, Lincoln. Since that is the ONLY bust of Caesarion I could find, you win. I'm aware of the 'stylized' thing. It's all we've got. I'm not sure why you think the bust of Cleopatra is not accurate, though. Rather a lot of Romans saw her when she was living in Rome; she was the mother of Julius Caesar's child, according to the official news. Look at her. She would have been just out of her teens if that was modeled on her when she came to Rome with the infant Caesarion. Some have called that her "ugly" bust. It's sure different than:

I certainly see, though, what you mean about Caesarion's bust. When you look at this one compared to that one, it is definitely "stylized." None of the "real" busts of Cleopatra look like that.

 

[Lincoln1976]

View attachment 274252

Cleopatra. Features a lot like Caesarion's. Well, we do KNOW that's his mom.

Well, there you have it: look again at her face...absolutely symetrical and perfect...but of course not realistic and that's what makes it so hard to exactually tell, what she or her son actually looked like in real life...we have Roman reports from her, but that's not absolutely helpful either, since everyone has of course a different perception.

Those busts were often made, using the image of a god or godess as base and than project only certain features on to that...we have strong indications, that Cleopatra wasn't really beautiful for instance...she was said to have a rather large nose and strong cheek bones..as I said...very hard to tell the real life look from any Greek or Egyptian statue or buste...Alexander the Great comes to mind as well btw

Okay, Lincoln. Since that is the ONLY bust of Caesarion I could find, you win. I'm aware of the 'stylized' thing. It's all we've got. I'm not sure why you think the bust of Cleopatra is not accurate, though. Rather a lot of Romans saw her when she was living in Rome; she was the mother of Julius Caesar's child, according to the official news. Look at her. She would have been just out of her teens if that was modeled on her when she came to Rome with the infant Caesarion. Some have called that her "ugly" bust. It's sure different than:

I certainly see, though, what you mean about Caesarion's bust. When you look at this one compared to that one, it is definitely "stylized." None of the "real" busts of Cleopatra look like that.

Yes, that's correct..a lot of Romans did see Cleopatra yet there is a twist: Cleopatra was seen very unfavourable in Roman eyes...marriage was the base of Roman society and Cesar had left (not even divorced!) his wife for this foreigner of a barbaric culture and that was a no no...even worst, she seduced (and in the eyes of many subdued) Mark Antony! That's a bit like...don't know...a true real all American hero like Washington being seduced by the queen of France and turned into a male pussie....Mark Antony too left his wife and shamed her and the very idea of Roman moral foundations...it was a PR mess and a lot of chracterizations were indeed propaganda....just remember the story of Cleopatra disolving a huge pearl in whine and drinking it to show off? well,that never happened as we know, cause pearls just don't disolve like that, yet that story was past around as canon.Stories about her supposedly ugliness are simple not going to be varified, cause that's where the busts and general depictions come into play.

Pharaos were gods...not like gods but real, life gods and so every depiction of them was in that light, was suppose to give the appropriate image....Akhenaten is a very interesting exception, but than he was the first (and only) Pharao who did NOT put himself at the focus of worship, but tried his hand at monotheism

akhenaten - Google Search:

Sorry, I don't want to come across as arguing about nothing, but like to point out the fascinating aspects of the ancient world which are (unfortunately) seem to be quite neglected these days.

As for Cesarion, I would point out that Cesar did recognize him and that he was enough of a threat to have him killed eventually, so at least from a legal standpoint, he was clearly Cesar's heir and that is more we can say about Brutus...even though the indicators are quite strong that he indeed was Cesar's illegitemate son