Handling Hamas

[liberalogic]

President Bush said Hamas can't be a partner in peace unless it renounces its goal to destroy Israel. Israel refuses to recognize Hamas as the government. Hamas "offered to renew a truce with Israel, but ruled out direct talk with the Jewish state."

So what are we supposed to do now in order to continue pushing our desire for peace in the Middle East?

While Hamas has done many troubling things in the past, I think that alienating them completely is a wrong move. I think right now, right after the "election" before more bad blood flows, we need to step in and ignite some form of negotiation. Pushing them away now pushes the the peace process in the Middle East further and further away as well.

 

[5stringJeff]

We should tell Hamas that their cry-baby stance of not negotiating with their next dorr neighbors will not be tolerated.

Israel should tell the new gov't that any terrorist attack will be considered an attack by the Palestinian government, and will be dealt with accordingly.

 

[ekrem]

We should tell Hamas that their cry-baby stance of not negotiating with their next dorr neighbors will not be tolerated.

Israel should tell the new gov't that any terrorist attack will be considered an attack by the Palestinian government, and will be dealt with accordingly.

Yes. All parties have to talk witheachother for progress of the situation.


By the way: Very interesting to look.


B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members.

Palestinians killed by Israeli Security Forces - Monthly Tables
http://www.btselem.org/English/Stat..._by_Israeli_security_forces_montly_tables.asp



Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians - Monthly tables
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Israeli_civilians_killed_by_Palestinians_Montly_Tables.asp

 

[5stringJeff]

Interesting tables. However, they did not note how many of the Palestinians were terrorist assholes who deserved to die. I would imagine that the majority of them were.

 

[liberalogic]

By threatening, though, we are putting more distance between us and them. And by Israel not recognizing Hamas, they are being ignorant and hurting any sort of peace advancement. Hamas is there, now it's time to do deal with it; not ignore it.

 

[ekrem]

Interesting tables. However, they did not note how many of the Palestinians were terrorist assholes who deserved to die. I would imagine that the majority of them were.

Yes agree. Didn't thought about your point you mentioned.
Israelis do precise attacks like they did with Jassin and others. Still, by these precise Attacks there is always a chance for colateral-damage in civilians.

Hamas leaders are now not anymore targets for these precise attacks by Israel like in the past. This would be a horrible sign sent out to the arab world. Israel attacking an, through legitimate democratic election elected governing party.
This must be the best day for Hamas since its being. Like a life insurance for the time being in government.


The problem is: Hamas is Terrorist.
But the so-called Palestinian state is not.

Hamas going to be Palestinian state is a very complicated situation. When Hamas and Israel don't want to talk with eachother than others should mediate between them, like Turkey proposed in Davos.

Shimon Peres: Israel may negotiate with Hamas if group shuns terror
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/675781.html

This is a pragmatic and wise approach. Now everyone has to put pressure on Hamas to fullfill Peres' demands. This would be the best.
Israel and Palestinians preventing blowing-up posted statistics above could also be helpfull.

Hamas won't give their waepons away. But i think, when Israel isn't boycotting them. Hamas is maybe willing to resolve Hamas "soldiers" and regroupt them with official Palestinian forces.

Boycotting Hamas will only radicalize them. Plus a high possibility that Hamas radicalizes the ministries which they govern. This wouldn't be good.

 

[Annie]

I think now that Hamas has significant majority, it's easy enough for Israel and the US to call them 'a government.' While they do not 'own' land, they do represent the people that apparently have elected them, fairly. Thus they are responsible for those that act at their behest.

Seems a much better position for Israel. Suicide bombers are committing 'acts of war.' We already have seen the response that can be expected regarding missiles lobbed from the West Bank.

 

[manu1959]

this whole thing is brilliant.....

israel used to be attacked by a nameless faceless governmetnless landless group

so it was difficult to do anything....

now they have a government, land a face and a name.....

Hamas / Palestine will move to their new land and set up shop ..

israel will watch and wait

eventually hamas will not be able to help themsleves....

israel will kill them all in one swoop and take their land back

brilliant

 

[deaddude]

this whole thing is brilliant.....

israel used to be attacked by a nameless faceless governmetnless landless group

so it was difficult to do anything....

now they have a government, land a face and a name.....

Hamas / Palestine will move to their new land and set up shop ..

israel will watch and wait

eventually hamas will not be able to help themsleves....

israel will kill them all in one swoop and take their land back

brilliant

I can easily somthing like this happening. In fact I would find it to be incredibly funny if it did not happen. It would infuriate the Isrealies if hamas suddenly became peaceful.

 

[manu1959]

I can easily somthing like this happening. In fact I would find it to be incredibly funny if it did not happen. It would infuriate the Isrealies if hamas suddenly became peaceful.

do you know the story of the frog and the scorpion

 

[Annie]

do you know the story of the frog and the scorpion

You mean this one?

The Scorpion and the Frog
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.

The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...

 

[manu1959]

yes.......wanna bet who lib thinks is the frog?

 

[Annie]

yes.......wanna bet who lib thinks is the frog?

The analogy is clear, no one could miss it, well except Hamas.

 

[Annie]

Here's the response, sounds like one would expect:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_hamas__test

Hamas Says It Will Not Change

By STEVEN GUTKIN, Associated Press WriterSat Jan 28, 2:27 PM ET

Following their resounding election victory, the Islamic militants of Hamas met the question of whether they will change their stripes with a loud "no": no recognition of Israel, no negotiations, no renunciation of terror.

But the world holds out hope that international pressure can make them more moderate. At stake is the future of Mideast peacemaking, billions of dollars in aid and the Palestinians' relationship with Israel, the United States and Europe.

Hamas' victory — winning 76 of 132 parliament seats in Wednesday's election — has created a dizzying power shift in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, overturning certitudes and highlighting the failure by Palestinian leaders, Israel and the international community to ease growing desperation in the Palestinian territories.

Weekend violence between Hamas and Palestinian policemen mostly allied with long-dominant Fatah, and angry demonstrations by disgruntled gunmen fearing the loss of jobs and income after the Hamas win, have raised the specter of widespread civil strife.

After a brutal five-year campaign by Israel to destroy Hamas and assassinate its top leaders, the organization emerged stronger than ever and is poised to take over the Palestinian Authority.

The U.S. has pushed for democracy in the Middle East, hoping to promote moderation and head off more 9/11-style attacks, but, as in recent votes in Iraq, Egypt and Lebanon, a clean and fair election has empowered Islamists in the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel and the international community repeatedly have demanded that the Palestinian government disarm militias, but now that the main militia appears to have become the government, no one knows what will happen to its weapons.

The win by Hamas — which is responsible for dozens of suicide bombings on Israelis and has long called for the destruction of the Jewish state — caught everyone, including the organization itself, off guard.

Both Hamas and the international community face agonizing dilemmas. Hamas leaders say they won't renounce their violent ideology, but the consequences of failing to do so are likely to be catastrophic: loss of life-sustaining aid, international isolation and a profound setback to their statehood aspirations.

The United States and many European countries say they'll have nothing to do with a Hamas government, but a sharp cutoff in aid and an overly zealous stance could steer the Palestinians further away from moderation at an extremely delicate moment.

An interview with an up-and-coming young Hamas leader in a dusty Gaza Strip field revealed how the organization's slant could shift.

Mushir al-Masri said renouncing the "armed struggle" and negotiating with Israel are "not on Hamas' agenda" because a decade of talking won the Palestinians nothing.

"We cannot waste 10 more years when the last 10 years failed to realize even the minimum amount of Palestinian hopes," he said.

But when an aide tried to put a green Hamas sash over al-Masri's shoulder before a TV interview, the 29-year-old newly elected lawmaker shooed him away. "You should bring me the Palestinian flag," he said, reflecting his movement's stated desire to represent all Palestinians.

By all accounts, Palestinians didn't choose Hamas because they reject peace talks with Israel but rather because they were fed up with graft in the ruling Fatah Party.

yeah, right. Then they would now be holding up signs saying, 'No to terrorism, support Palestinian jobs!'

Hamas candidates ran on a platform of clean government, largely de-emphasizing their militant credentials.

Samih al-Hattab, a 32-year-old policeman in Gaza City, said he voted for Hamas because "everyone wants change," but said he expected the group to soften its stances once in power.

"A politician has to be seasoned and to adapt to the situation he's under," he said, standing outside a mosque where a cleric had just finished a sermon urging Hamas not to follow the corrupt ways of Fatah.

Hamas leaders are aware of their dilemma. Since the election, they have struggled to persuade Fatah to join them in a coalition — hoping to avoid having to deal with Israel and the West. But Fatah has so far rejected the offer.

Hamas victory celebrations have been decidedly muted, another indication the group seeks to handle the situation delicately.

Despite that, tensions are boiling on the streets. Clashes in Gaza between Hamas gunmen and Palestinian police on Friday and Saturday wounded four officers and one Hamas militant.

Also Saturday, thousands of angry Fatah activists, led by masked gunmen firing in the air, marched through several West Bank cities demanding the resignation of party leaders following their defeat.

The growing unrest, combined with the complexities of running a government and world pressure for it to change its ways, pose daunting challenges to Hamas, which has little experience in governance.

If Hamas forms the next government, as is likely, and fails to renounce its call for the destruction of Israel, the U.S. and most European countries are almost certain to cut off the financial aid that keeps the already bankrupt Palestinian Authority running.

Israel, which has urged the international community not to deal with a Hamas government, has substantial leverage in the situation but for now appears intent on holding off on severe measures such as closing border crossings with Gaza or cutting off the monthly flow of tax transfers to the Palestinian Authority.

The Palestinians have a mixed system of government, part presidential and part parliamentary. That means Fatah's Mahmoud Abbas, the moderate president of the Palestinian Authority, should be able to remain in office.

Still unknown, however, is whether Hamas will seize its right to form the new government, taking over the premiership and a new Palestinian Cabinet, and what sort of powers that would give them. The previous Fatah-dominated legislature for the most part fell in line with Abbas.

 

[Annie]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Hamas Suggests Using Militants in Army

By SARAH EL DEEB and RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press WritersSat Jan 28, 5:47 PM ET

The leader of Hamas suggested Saturday that the Islamic group could create a Palestinian army that would include its militant wing — responsible for scores of deadly attacks on Israelis — in the aftermath of its crushing victory in parliamentary elections.

Israeli officials condemned the plan, demanding that Hamas renounce violence. Palestinian security officers, including loyalists from the defeated Fatah Party, said they would never submit to Hamas control.

"Hamas has no power to meddle with the security forces," said Jibril Rajoub, a Palestinian strongman.

The Hamas chief, Khaled Mashaal, reiterated that Hamas would not recongize Israel and indicated attacks on Israeli civilians would continue as long as Israel continued to target Palestinian civilians. "As long as we are under occupation then resistance is our right," he said.

Angry police stormed the parliament building in Gaza and armed militants marched into Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' compound in Ramallah to demonstrate their rejection of Hamas' authority. Their defiance raised fears of a spike in violence between Palestinian factions.

Clashes have already broken out between the two sides. Hamas gunmen wounded two policemen in Gaza early Saturday in what authorities said was a roadside ambush. The attack came hours after another firefight wounded a Hamas activist and two police officers, one of whom was in a coma Saturday.

Hamas won 74 out of 132 seats in parliamentary elections Wednesday to Fatah's 45. The militant group's victory threw the fate of international aid to the cash-strapped Palestinian Authority in doubt and darkened the chances for a peace deal with Israel.

Speaking from his base in Damascus, Syria, Mashaal insisted his group would not disarm and said Hamas' military wing, estimated at nearly 5,000 gunmen in Gaza alone, could be merged into a Palestinian army.

"We are ready to unify the weapons of Palestinian factions, with Palestinian consensus, and form an army like any independent state," he said.

Israeli officials demanded that Hamas look for peaceful solutions to the conflict.

"If Hamas wants to be considered a partner in peace, it's very clear what it has to do. It has to renounce terrorism, disarm, accept Israel's right to exist and support political solutions to issues rather than pursuing violent jihad," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said.

Mashaal also said Hamas would abide by existing agreements with the country "as long as it is in the interest of our people."

Israel and the Palestinians have a host of agreements dealing with everything from administration to peace frameworks. Mashaal did not say which agreements he was referring to.

Israeli officials have said repeatedly that they would not deal with Hamas, and Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said Israel would not rule out targeted killings against Hamas leaders if they attack Israel. Israeli airstrikes in 2004 killed Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and his successor Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

"Whoever stands at the head of a terror organization and continues to carry out terror attacks against Israel is not immune," Mofaz told Israel's Channel 2 television.

Hamas' victory shocked Fatah, which dominated Palestinian politics for four decades. Abbas ordered an investigation into why his party lost so badly.

Marwan Barghouti, the jailed Palestinian uprising leader who was Fatah's top candidate and led efforts to reform the party, appealed for Fatah to hold a general conference to elect fresh leadership, according to a statement released by his wife, Fadwa.

He also congratulated Hamas and said Fatah would peacefully transfer power.

"We will respect the democratic process and its results and help those who won the confidence of our people," he said.

But many in the 58,000-member security force were less conciliatory and rejected any Hamas control.

"The security institution is a red line. We will not allow anyone to tamper with it," Gaza police chief Ala Hosni said. "It will remain a powerful and impartial arm that carries out the decisions of the presidency (Abbas) and that stops any infighting or civil war."

Dozens of armed police officers briefly stormed the parliament building in Gaza City, demanding the security forces remain in Fatah's hands and calling for Hamas members who killed police in fighting in recent months to be brought to justice.

In Ramallah, hundreds of Fatah activists, including gunmen and security officers, marched into Abbas' compound and prayed at the grave of Yasser Arafat.

"We came to you Abu Amar to forgive us for what happened," they chanted, referring to Arafat by his nickname.

Abbas' security force prevented the activists from approaching his office. Militants outside the walled compound shot in the air.

"We'll show them hell as an opposition, and we will turn the Palestinian Authority security forces into armed militia led by Al Aqsa," Ramzi Obeidi, a leader of the Fatah-allied Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, told the crowd.

Other Fatah activists staged angry protests throughout the West Bank, including in Nablus.

"We are now no longer part of the cease-fire," an Al Aqsa gunman, Nasser Haras, told the crowd, referring to a year-old truce with Israel.

In Tulkarem, gunman Ibrahim Khreisheh warned against cooperating with Hamas. "Whoever will participate in a government with Hamas, we will shoot him in the head," he said.

Abbas has said he would ask Hamas to form the next government and Hamas officials said they wanted to meet him Sunday. Hamas, with no experience in government, reached out to Fatah to form a coalition, but Fatah officials said they preferred to be in opposition.

Outlining his group's plan for the future, Mashaal said it would work to reform the corruption-riddled Palestinian Authority and continue its resistance to Israel.

In a move likely to anger Israel, Mashaal said Hamas would release Ahmed Saadat, leader of the radical Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. He is being held at a Palestinian jail under Western supervision for ordering the assassination of an Israeli Cabinet minister in 2001.

President Bush told "CBS Evening News" on Friday that the United States would cut aid to the Palestinian government unless Hamas, which the U.S. lists as a terror group, abolishes its militant wing and stops calling for Israel's destruction.

Speaking at the World Forum in Davos, Switzerland, former President Clinton suggested Saturday that the West should be more open to eventual talks with Hamas.

"You've got to find a way to at least open doors ... and I don't see how we can do it without more contact," he said. Hamas might "acquire a greater sense of responsibility, and as they do, we have to be willing to act on that."

 

[Emmett]

A most difficult situation at best for sure!

 

[5stringJeff]

Israel should tell the new gov't that any terrorist attack will be considered an attack by the Palestinian government, and will be dealt with accordingly.

I will repeat this every day if I have to. It is the only way Israel will ever solve the new problem of a terrorist government next door.


:firing:

 

[theHawk]

I really dont get why libs always think there is a peacefull solution to everything. No one in their right mind is going to deal with terrorists. Palestine is a terrorist state, it does not matter if it was elected 'democratically', all that means is the majority of people there support terrorism (which we already knew all along...). Make them pay the consequeces. They only understand brute force.

Give it to them... :2guns: :ali:

 

[Mariner]

wrote, in regard to the fact that Israeli forces have killed more Palestinian civilians than Palestinian terrorists have Israelis:

"Interesting tables. However, they did not note how many of the Palestinians were terrorist assholes who deserved to die. I would imagine that the majority of them were."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. To some extent, terrorists have exacerbated the problem by hiding among civilians--but that's exactly the nature of terrorism. It's not ordinary war against an army with dog tags and uniforms. The fact remains that in its revenge strikes Israel has killed large numbers of completely innocent Palestinian civilians, including children and families. Palestinians have put up with this out of despair--having been pushed off their land, led horribly by Arafat and others, scarcely helped as refugees by other Arab nations, they have little else to do than vilify and attack Israel.

It's not only Palestinian sympathizers who worry about Israel's killing of innocents--most of my Israeli friends are equally aghast. It was encouraging that Sharon was giving up his own hardline tactics, but his centrist party may now not get off the ground. We should heed the lesson of Israel when we consider our own options in handling terrorism--Israel stands as an example of the hard line approach, and Sharon's renouncing of it as ineffective suggests we may need to rethink our own "bring 'em on" mentality at some point.

Mariner.

 

[Gunny]

wrote, in regard to the fact that Israeli forces have killed more Palestinian civilians than Palestinian terrorists have Israelis:

"Interesting tables. However, they did not note how many of the Palestinians were terrorist assholes who deserved to die. I would imagine that the majority of them were."

Unfortunately, this isn't true. To some extent, terrorists have exacerbated the problem by hiding among civilians--but that's exactly the nature of terrorism. It's not ordinary war against an army with dog tags and uniforms. The fact remains that in its revenge strikes Israel has killed large numbers of completely innocent Palestinian civilians, including children and families. Palestinians have put up with this out of despair--having been pushed off their land, led horribly by Arafat and others, scarcely helped as refugees by other Arab nations, they have little else to do than vilify and attack Israel.

It's not only Palestinian sympathizers who worry about Israel's killing of innocents--most of my Israeli friends are equally aghast. It was encouraging that Sharon was giving up his own hardline tactics, but his centrist party may now not get off the ground. We should heed the lesson of Israel when we consider our own options in handling terrorism--Israel stands as an example of the hard line approach, and Sharon's renouncing of it as ineffective suggests we may need to rethink our own "bring 'em on" mentality at some point.

Mariner.

Simple question:

If the majority of Palestinians are not terrorists, then how did a terrorist organization win in a democratic election?