Hamas, the people who "really" care about the palestinians

[Munin]

If they truly cared so much about the palestinians why would they place their rockets firing installation right between two civilian houses? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR2yyTDG6T8]YouTube - Israeli Air Force destroys underground Hamas rocket launching facility[/ame]
Isn't Hamas part of the reason why baby's and women get killed? (the other part being Israel that is at war with Hamas)

Anyway, now the war is on the leaders of Hamas are hiding in shelters wether they are mosques, hospitals, ... I don't care: the people who call themselves heroes of the palestinian people are hiding while because of their irresponsible behavior all their targets that are in the middle of civilian areas are being bombed. And now the only thing they can think of is to drag the West bank also into this by saying all palestinians should strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up.

While the West Bank is finally recovering and having one of the largest number of tourists it ever had, it has become a much better place to live compared to Gaza. But after all, who knows better what is good for the palestinians then someone enjoying the life in Damascus? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLO-16qFmI]YouTube - Hamas press conference after Israeli Gaza strikes - 27 Dec08[/ame]



And then remember:

"For the first time in 10 days, Israel opened its border crossings with the Gaza Strip Friday morning to allow in essential humanitarian supplies.

If Hamas, the radical Islamist movement ruling the Gaza Strip, responds by reducing rocket and mortar attacks from the strip, Israel will put off a military operation, officials said."

Israel gives Hamas 48 hours, opens Gaza borders

If you can read between the lines, Israel was making space for peace. By giving humanitarian aid and asking to stop firing rockets Israel would probably be prepared to let more humanitarian aid go in. So what did Hamas do?

And then keep in mind that Egypt was closing the border before Israel began its offensive, while Hamas knew it they blew the chance for the palestinians by doing what they did (continue firing rockets at Civilians in Israel). The palestinians in Gaza where locked in like a bird in a cage.

So what did Hamas actually perform for the palestinian people in Gaza? Did they actually do anything significant that would ensure that the lives of palestinians would improve on a continued basis?

What is Hamas good for?
Achievements?
Murdering civilians?
International support?
DEFENDING PALESTINIANS? (isn't that a job of a group that calls itself a government?)

 

[editec]

Are you under the impression that any of us think HAMAS are the good guys, Muni?

Except perhaps for a Sunni, I don't think anyone thinks they are.

 

[Munin]

I have the impression that a lot of protestors that were protesting where actually also protesting for Hamas, because of only blaming Israel for it. While war comes always from 2 sides, nobody (on the International scene) seems to blame Hamas for it except the Israelis and the Jews. I didn't see any protests against Hamas lately.

And I find it stunning that many Arab nations still seem to support Hamas (officially or unofficially), that also many muslims seem to be supporters (even in the West where we have a lot of educated muslims) of Hamas like they re some kind of "heroes".

And let s not forget the palestinians themselves who elected them, they are also among the protestors that seem to support Hamas by only blaming Israel.

 

[editec]

I have the impression that a lot of protestors that were protesting where actually also protesting for Hamas, because of only blaming Israel for it. While war comes always from 2 sides, nobody (on the International scene) seems to blame Hamas for it except the Israelis and the Jews. I didn't see any protests against Hamas lately.

Ah...understood. Yes, I also find that somewhat troubling.

The fact is that people want a simply story, and so in their world view either the Jews are at fault or the Arabs and no attention to details or nuance is needed.

And I find it stunning that many Arab nations still seem to support Hamas (officially or unofficially), that also many muslims seem to be supporters (even in the West where we have a lot of educated muslims) of Hamas like they re some kind of "heroes".

Yeah, well I'm inclined to think that HAMAS which is provoking Isreael to the point where the IDF going to kill hundreds of GAZA residents isn't especially heroic, just highly manipulative.

And let s not forget the palestinians themselves who elected them, they are also among the protestors that seem to support Hamas by only blaming Israel.

Well, I give the Palestinians a pass (and them alone!) for voting for HAMAS, since HAMAS was ALSO providing those people with basic human services when the rest of the world was not, even before HAMAS was voted into power.

 

[submarinepainter]

I don't see how Israel has a choice

 

[jillian]

Are you under the impression that any of us think HAMAS are the good guys, Muni?

Except perhaps for a Sunni, I don't think anyone thinks they are.

But there are some people who seem not to understand that because of the immorality of putting terrorist installations in civilian locations, you can't destroy the threat without killing civilians.

And even more amazingly, there are some who don't see a moral high ground between Israel and people who put babies in front of rockets.

Stupid, huh?

 

[Munin]

Well, I give the Palestinians a pass (and them alone!) for voting for HAMAS, since HAMAS was ALSO providing those people with basic human services when the rest of the world was not, even before HAMAS was voted into power.

I always thought that Hamas used the charity-organization to clean their money and as a fundraiser for their activities, like a lot of terrorist organizations do for example the one that did the mumbai bombings.

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
Ah...understood. Yes, I also find that somewhat troubling.

The fact is that people want a simply story, and so in their world view either the Jews are at fault or the Arabs and no attention to details or nuance is needed.

It's not that people want a simple story it's the fact that many people around the world are able to see the big picture.

The american natives engaged in an armed struggle that did not spare civilians either, but this doesn't change the big picture:

They were fighting a white racial dictatorship responsible for their displacement and discrimination.

Many white civilians were killed in South Africa during the 70's and 80's.

It doesn't change the big picture: Apartheid.

 

[José]

I would point out a much graver problem than people wanting a simple story, editec.

One of the biggest hurdles to the end of the palestinian armed struggle and the democratization of Palestine (right after the partial islamisation of the palestinian cause) is so many westerners like you who spend an awful lot of time and effort sugar coating, romanticizing and rationalizing what amounts to nothing but a racial dictatorship.

 

[editec]

But there are some people who seem not to understand that because of the immorality of putting terrorist installations in civilian locations, you can't destroy the threat without killing civilians.

And even more amazingly, there are some who don't see a moral high ground between Israel and people who put babies in front of rockets.

Stupid, huh?

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, Jill.

You know, if I were King of Isreal, facing what Israel is facing now, what I actually might consider doing instead of going with the eye for an eye routine which you and I both know isn't working in the long run?

I'd try the turn the other cheek routine. I'd try killing 'em with kindness, sorta speak.

I'd start air dropping CARE packages all over GAZA with a note that this largess was from the people of Isreal who fully understand what a freaking sorry state of affairs most of them are in.

I'd express my heartfelt regrets that both the Isreali Jews and the Palestinians were set upon each other by the sorry histories both of them have had to cope with.

I mean I would so blanket the place with things that people need such that any political traction that HAMAS was getting as a result of the people's daily deprivations would be undermined.

Included in those packages would be documented evidence of the rocket attacks, and the names (possibly the images, too) of the Isrealis that HAMAS has killed.

It's proably far cheaper than air strikes, anyway, and surely that response to HAMAS violence would be PR coup in the international media, too.

You know, it isn't just the weak who can use passive resistence to make a political point. Stop playing into HAMAS's trump suite and start playing with Israel's.

Might not work immediately, but sooner or later the Palestinian people are going to start asking themselves if perhaps supporting the people who are killing the people who are treating them with respect and dignity isn't actually a violation of their own ethical codes.

We ALL love our children, Jillian.

Doesn't matter what nationality, what religion, what language we speak, or what culture we are part of, that is THE common ground we share, if we choose to take a stand against violence.

FWIW, Rosetta would be more than happy to work with any Jewish philantropic organization which would like to include children's illustrated books (translated into Farsi) to include in those tactical peace strikes.

Rosetta cannot afford to have those books printed, but we'd certainly work with any organziation willing to work on making that happen.

FYI did you know that Rosetta is one of the most popular sites in Syria?

Everybody loves their children, Jill...everybody.

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
I'd try the turn the other cheek routine. I'd try killing 'em with kindness, sorta speak.

I'd start air dropping CARE packages all over GAZA with a note that this largess was from the people of Isreal who fully understand what a freaking sorry state of affairs most of them are in.

I'd express my heartfelt regrets that both the Isreali Jews and the Palestinians were set upon each other by the sorry histories both of them have had to cope with.

More sugar coating of racist states.

Let's bomb them with care packages hoping that, well fed, they will come to terms with the arab bantustans they are confined to.

Glass beads and trinkets being offered instead of full, unequivocal recognition of the palestinian people's humanity, of their right to share their homeland as equals with all the other ethnic groups who called that troubled land home.

 

[editec]

More sugar coating of racist states.

Let's bomb them with care packages hoping that, well fed, they will come to terms with the arab bantustans they are confined to.

Glass beads and trinkets being offered instead of full, unequivocal recognition of the palestinian people's humanity, of their right to share their homeland as equals with all the other ethnic groups who called that troubled land home.

I actually understand that objection, and certainly believe that that is exactly what HAMAS will say of it, too.

Still, I think people are not the ingrates you presume they will be.

People DO understand human kindness and they do not forget it, either.

The people in the GAZA are suffering from a serious lack of basics.

Perhaps you should not let the perfect get in the way of the merely good, Jose.

 

[Palestinian]

oh , u mean 'Israel' care about them ?!!!!

 

[Munin]

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, Jill.

You know, if I were King of Isreal, facing what Israel is facing now, what I actually might consider doing instead of going with the eye for an eye routine which you and I both know isn't working in the long run?

I'd try the turn the other cheek routine. I'd try killing 'em with kindness, sorta speak.

I'd start air dropping CARE packages all over GAZA with a note that this largess was from the people of Isreal who fully understand what a freaking sorry state of affairs most of them are in.

I'd express my heartfelt regrets that both the Isreali Jews and the Palestinians were set upon each other by the sorry histories both of them have had to cope with.

I mean I would so blanket the place with things that people need such that any political traction that HAMAS was getting as a result of the people's daily deprivations would be undermined.

Included in those packages would be documented evidence of the rocket attacks, and the names (possibly the images, too) of the Isrealis that HAMAS has killed.

It's proably far cheaper than air strikes, anyway, and surely that response to HAMAS violence would be PR coup in the international media, too.

You know, it isn't just the weak who can use passive resistence to make a political point. Stop playing into HAMAS's trump suite and start playing with Israel's.
...
everybody.

Sadly or not, there is no king of Israel and the prime minister could not sell this solution to his people: What do you say to the families who were hit by the rockets? We re working on the problem, we are rewarding them right now for their actions. The party that would even speak of such a thing would sign its own political death sentence, you can simply not reward violence even if not all the people were in on causing it.

 

[José]

Originally posted by editec
I actually understand that objection, and certainly believe that that is exactly what HAMAS will say of it, too.

Still, I think people are not the ingrates you presume they will be.

People DO understand human kindness and they do not forget it, either.

The people in the GAZA are suffering from a serious lack of basics.

Perhaps you should not let the perfect get in the way of the merely good, Jose.

Editec

I must confess that my first reaction to your peace proposal (“bombardment” of care packages) was:

“Editec’s plan would be a marvelous FIRST STEP, and I repeat, FIRST STEP, towards the reconciliation of those two peoples and the eventual democratization of Palestine!!”

To tell you the truth, I had a feeling you were also presenting this plan as nothing but a first step, but since you didn’t make any explicit mention to the eventual recognition of palestinian’s rights and aspirations as a people and mind reading is not one of my powers, I was obliged to treat your proposal as a definitive, complete peace plan.

I firmly believe that confidence building measures are extremely important to solve this conflict as long as they are not regarded as a substitute for the establishment of a desegregated state in Palestine.

Assuming you also see those measures as intermediary steps towards the desegregation of Palestine, I humbly take my words back.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

If they truly cared so much about the palestinians why would they place their rockets firing installation right between two civilian houses?

Because they don't have hundreds of F-15 fighter jets?

Hey, maybe the US should send as many weapons to Hamas as it does to the Israeli government. Then you would see that nobody would be shooting rockets from houses.

 

[jillian]

Because they don't have hundreds of F-15 fighter jets?

Hey, maybe the US should send as many weapons to Hamas as it does to the Israeli government. Then you would see that nobody would be shooting rockets from houses.

we've given plenty of money to the palestinians...and have armed the Saudi's.

you're point? other than only being ticked off that jews have weapons, too?

 

[Munin]

Because they don't have hundreds of F-15 fighter jets?

Hey, maybe the US should send as many weapons to Hamas as it does to the Israeli government. Then you would see that nobody would be shooting rockets from houses.

I think if Hamas had the weapons that Israel has and Israel only the capabilities of Hamas, then we would see how friendly Israel has been all this time. And from the side of Hamas: well they ll probably break Hitlers track record.

Still it s not because you don't have fighter Jets that you have to use your own civilians as "human shield", you could have your artillery (rockets) placed outside Gaza city and hide it with a tunnel system (like the ones they use for getting into Egypt).

 

[Epsilon Delta]

we've given plenty of money to the palestinians...and have armed the Saudi's.

you're point? other than only being ticked off that jews have weapons, too?

I made my point clear Jillian. If Gaza had the military capabilities of Israel, then they wouldn't be shooting weapons from houses. They would be bombing Jerusalem from the sky, not the other way around. It's very simple. I think maybe even you could understand. If the Vietnamese had had the military capabilities of the Americans, they wouldn't have been hiding in shit villages, they would've been bombing L.A., and not the other way around. On the flip side, if it was ISRAEL THAT WAS OCCUPIED FOR 41 YEARS, and if it was ISRAEL WHO WERE SUBJECT TO BANTUSTAN-LIKE SETTLEMENTS, MILITARY CHECKPOINTS, and OPPRESSION, withOUT American Bombs and Tanks and satellites, then it would be the Israelis launching rockets from the cities. And you know, maybe that would be much better, because than at least I wouldn't be called an anti-semite by defending Israel (which I would be, in this parallel universe).

And please, stop the subtle shit with the Jews. I don't give a fuck about the fact they're Jews. I wouldn't give a fuck if Israel was the homeland of the Gypsies instead. It just doesn't matter. So stop taking potshots about "The Jews". I'm concerned about actions. Not about ethnic make-up. My grandfather was a Jew, and his whole family was murdered by the Nazis. K? K.

But you make a very good point: America does not discriminate in arming its terrorist client states, whether it be Israel, Saudi Arabia, or Colombia. i reject the notion that America arms Israel because they're Jews. America arms and supports Israel because it's a good client state. It's America's own little super-high-tech colony right in the middle of the action.