Hamas gives up?

[nbdysfu]

**All these militants are dropping their guns like Frenchmen **

Hamas Said to Halt Attacks Inside Israel
5 minutes ago

By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - The Islamic group responsible for most suicide bombings in three years of violence has called off attacks inside Israel, a move that could pave the way for a full cease-fire in weeks, the Israeli military says.


AP Photo


AP Photo
Slideshow: Mideast Conflict

Funerals Held for Victims of Mideast Violence
(AP Video)



Israel's military chief, Maj. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, told the Yediot Ahronot newspaper in an interview published Friday that Hamas has decided to stop attacks against Israel.


In response, Israel will hold off targeting Hamas leaders but will still go after other Palestinian militants in retaliation for a suicide bombing this week, security sources said.


Hamas officials were not available for comment Friday so it was not clear if the group was sticking to cease-fire efforts. But Israel appeared to be acting on that assumption.


Since the start of fighting in September 2000, Israel has hunted down and killed militant leaders. On Thursday, a helicopter airstrike in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites) killed three militants and two leaders.


"It is no coincidence that a group like Hamas decides to stop attacks within Israel, it comes from the realization that their organization is in danger," Yaalon was quoted as saying.


The Hamas move, Yaalon said, showed Israel had turned a corner in its battle against the militants. He said a truce could be achieved in 2004, making it the quietest year since fighting began three years ago.


"It is possible that we will reach a cease-fire in the coming weeks," Yaalon told the newspaper. "The Palestinian-Israeli conflict will be with us for many years to come, but I believe we have now passed the peak of the violent struggle.


Israel's helicopter assault Thursday came moments before a Palestinian suicide bombing near Tel Aviv that killed four Israelis. The suicide bombing did not appear to be coordinated as retaliation for the airstrike.


Hamas has taken responsibility for most of the more than 100 suicide bombings against Israelis in the fighting. But Thursday's suicide bombing was claimed by two other groups, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.


Israeli officials and Palestinian militants both pledged retaliation for the Thursday attacks, but Israel said it would not target Hamas leaders, reinforcing the comments by Israel's army chief of staff.


Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz decided in a meeting Friday with top commanders that Israel will strike at Palestinian militants, mainly those responsible for the suicide bombing, security officials said. Hamas leaders will not be targeted, they said on condition of anonymity.


Islamic Jihad militants warned at funerals Friday for the Palestinians killed in the airstrike that attacks against Israelis would not abate.


"We will chase the Zionist occupiers sitting on each and every inch of usurped Palestine until their final defeat," an armed and masked member of Islamic Jihad told thousands of participants at one funeral.


Thursday's suicide bombing was the first successful attack on civilians since an Islamic Jihad suicide bomber blew herself up on Oct. 4 at a restaurant in the northern Israeli city of Haifa, killing 21 people.


The last Israeli air raid until Thursday's, in the Gaza Strip on Oct. 20, killed 14 people, most of them bystanders.


Israel and the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) have been trying to work out a meeting between the prime ministers of the two sides, but the efforts have stalled because of conditions placed by both.





The sides have also been reluctant to fully implement the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, which envisions an independent Palestinian state by 2005.

In the meantime, the peace plan requires Israel to freeze settlement activity in the West Bank and Gaza, and orders the Palestinians to dismantle militant groups — steps neither side has taken.

 

[nbdysfu]

the link:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...p/20031227/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

 

[NightTrain]

That would be great, Nbdysfu... but those savages have been saying the exact same thing over and over for years.

My theory is they make a statement like this when the heat is turned up & they need time to regroup. Israel will usually respond with softening their stance & begin to withdraw, and ease up militarily. Then all hell breaks loose again.

I really don't think there's any real effort in the Palestinian leadership to achieve peace... all I've gotten out of talks is lip service. The one guy that seemed to genuinely want peace was met by resistance from every corner until he finally gave up.

 

[nbdysfu]

The otherer possibility is that they see the wall going up in Israel, and see the chaos in Iraq, and have decided to secure their base while they move into Iraq. This of course, would be against the idea that they are about the 'liberation' of the 'palestinian' people. It would show that they are really waging a war against western civilization.

What will happen if we start finding evidence of Hamas in Iraq?

 

[eric]

Then it is time to turn our attention to Syria !

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by nbdysfu


What will happen if we start finding evidence of Hamas in Iraq?

I'd bet my last dollar that they've got a solid showing in Iraq. Remember the numbnuts that was sending $25,000.00 to the families of suicide bombers? That was sure to buy fanatical loyalty... I saw countless stories of Palestinians heaping glowing praises and oaths of loyalty upon Saddam.

 

[nbdysfu]

An even other-er question is, what if Fedayeen start coming over from Palestine with hamas insignia on their gear?

 

[NightTrain]

The better to zero in on 'em, my dear!

 

[Annie]

Between the wall, security in Nablus, and the targeting of leadership, Hamas is trying to survive by calling a halt. It will be only temporary, while they figure out how to avoid those nasty missiles.

 

[critictrue1]

I'm having difficulty understanding how Arabs are trying to destroy western civilization. I was under the impression that the western civilization was the aggressor on Arab land and that western civilization was trying to destroy ARAB civilization and that ARABS were defending their homeland. Please help me out! Have the ARABS landed?
Regarding that wonderful state of Israel and those nasty animals the Palestinians who don't want peace. It seems that the Palestinians after being violently gang raped should get on their knees and thank Israel and America for the privelege.

 

[5stringJeff]

Arabs have always regarded the West as infidels, hardly worth talking to, let alone dealing with. Due to the rise of Western military and intellectual dominance after the Renaisance (sp?), Muslim countries realized they were forced to treat the West as equals, but they have never liked it. In fact, OBL and other Pan-Arab groups play to the anti-Western sentiments of many Arab Muslims to get them riled up against the West.
And, BTW, the Muslims did attack the US on 9/11... did you forget?

 

[eric]

nasty animals the Palestinians

Putting bomb belts on 4 year old children, I would have to agree with you here. We see just so many examples of how civilized that area of the world is. Hey why should women be treated well, they don't count, they don't need to drive or learn, just be beaten like dogs !!!!

Give it up man, really !!!

 

[DKSuddeth]

the Muslims did attack the US on 9/11... did you forget?

NO.

19 sociopaths who willingly followed a homicidal maniac named bin laden attacked us. Thats the official story so far, anyway.

Islamic fundamentalists attacked the US that day, not the muslim nation or religion.

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by critictrue1
I'm having difficulty understanding how Arabs are trying to destroy western civilization.

As would I. The fact is that there are in the Arab world extremists who condone terrorism against the west and Isreal. Some of these exploit the religious system for their own gain and encourage the general population that strapping bombs on their five year old children is an honorable thing.

 

[Annie]

fundamental

ertaining to the foundation or basis; serving for the foundation. Hence: Essential, as an element, principle, or law; important; original; elementary; as, a fundamental truth; a fundamental axiom.


I am not a student of the Koran or even the bible. I have read quite a bit of both however. No one could argue that the bible, especially the old testament, does not have some very aggressive passages. There are throughout though, admonishments to allowing G_D be the final decision maker. The admonishments not only become more clear in the new testament, the adherents are basically told that they should forgive their enemies, love their neighbors, etc.

The Koran, perhaps more melodiously written in poetry, seems to serve a different purpose. There are many more than 10 Commandments or 1 golden rule. While it would be very easy to take some of the more extreme passages from the Koran out and quote them, so it would be easy to do with the bible, in neither case would truth necessarily be served. To me the bottom line is what seems to be 'fundamental' to the message, that believers are to take away and use to guide their lives.

We can argue for the rest of our lives about orthodoxy, yet what seems to be a consensus among the practicing followers of any of the three major organized religions? Most Christians, whatever the sect they follow, do not appear to be 'extremists'.

Anecdotally, I am Catholic, mostly in the more traditional sense of the definition. I am pro-life, I go to church every Sunday, etc. I am also 'American' and respect the rule of law. When some whacko shoots an 'abortionist' I and anyone else I know, believe they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, someone like Rudolph should get the death penalty.

My pastor has given homilies how such actions, including extreme measures like throwing pretend blood or fake fetus at women trying to enter abortion/planned parenthood clinics is not only wrong, but doomed to failure, since good cannot come out of bad actions.

As a congregation we are first counseled to pray for those in such desperate circumstances that they would choose abortion. Then we are told to help right the circumstances that lead to that desperation, (thus Catholic Charities, adoption agencies, schools that waive tuition, after school programs, outreach programs, homeless shelters, food pantries, etc.)

Most protestant religions also have their own versions of these types of services. Those religions too speak out against criminal acts made by those 'interpreting' their 'lessons' to justify attacks on those acting in ways they consider 'sinful.'

While 'evangelism' is part of the new testament and various sects take it more or less to heart, there is in most cases a rather lengthy study period before one can 'convert.' In the case of Catholocism it's usually a period of nearly a year. In modern times, few Christian sects seem to go door-to-door trying to 'save' others, the 7th Day Adventists being the exception, which few of us appreciate. Most Christian sects now believe the best way to teach the message is through example and acts.

The Jewish community, often discriminated against in any locale, has traditionally been the most liberal amongst the religious. During the Civil Rights movement in the US, it was predominately Jews, of the 'whites' that were helping the Black Organizations fight for their rights.

The ACLU is still heavy with Jewish support. Jews, at least through the 2000 election have predominatly voted with the Democratic Party, assuming that to be the party of the 'common person' and for the 'rights' of the downtrodden. Why? They are prone to stick up for those being persecuted, as they have so often been. In the US the rate of wealth, education, and business ownership for Jews has been towards the top of any other group for many years. Their support for the Democrats defies the socio-economic make-up of both parties. However, this support may be eroded due to the conflicts in the Middle East and the strong support for Israel by the Republican administration, as well as strong Protestant support for the Palestinians, especially in Europe.

In Europe, prior to WWII, most Jews were 'secularists' and not observant, particulary in the educated classes. These were not people forcing their religion on others. The Jewish religion is not evangelical, in fact most rabbis will question someone who wants to 'convert' in order to determine how well they know their own religion. If one does not have a serious understanding of what they want to 'give up', how can they understand what they are going to 'accept'?

In Israel 2003, most Jews want peace, for themselves and for the Palestinians. Most support a homeland for the Palestinians. Some, not a majority, are even undercutting the elected government in an attempt to make a peace. Arabs in Israel have always been allowed to practice Islam or Christianity or no religion at all-much like here in the US. The Jews have always kept open the religious sites to all, when they have control.

Islam is not well known to most Americans, until recently few Americans were even interested in this once again fast growing religion. I don't know if evangelicalism is the right term to use regarding Islam, but it will suffice. Islam is that and more.

Whereas both Christianity and Judaism claim that there is only one God, Christianity insisting on a belief and acceptance of Christ as Savior for entry into heaven, Islam requires acceptance of Islam. Those that do not accept are 'infidels', on that no sect of Islam disagrees.

To become Muslim is easy, you just say it. It doesn't require study or even meeting a iman. After accepting, one should follow the rules of the Koran, which is not nearly as long as the bible, and while there are many rules, they are definately spelled out. While the personal rules are not harmful; ie. pray 3 times a day, what foods to eat and not, the pillars of the faith, etc.; the rules regarding infidels are also spelled out and they are not quite so pacific.

At the beginning of this way too long post, I started with the definition of 'fundamental'. I stated that I was by no means a scholar of Islam, quite the contrary. However it appears to me on the surface that what we, with our mostly Judeo-Christian, secularlists, humanist backgrounds have been referring to as 'extremist Islam' may not in actuality be that at all. Rather what is playing out today, as it did during the middle ages, is orthodox Islam, 'fundamentalism' if you will. Many proponents of Islam are now acting on or supporting the actions of others put forward by the Koran regarding treatment of infidels. It doesn't matter if you are Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, atheist, agnostic, or something else.

I hope I'm wrong, for the obvious implication is whether the West likes it or not, this War on Terrorism will devolve into a religious war.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by DKSuddeth
NO.

19 sociopaths who willingly followed a homicidal maniac named bin laden attacked us. Thats the official story so far, anyway.

Islamic fundamentalists attacked the US that day, not the muslim nation or religion.

DK, you are right, thank you for correcting me.

However, I will say that these people invoked the name of their religion in doing what they did. So I think they saw it as an act of jihad/holy war, even though the majority of Muslims would disagree with those actions being performed in the name of Allah.

 

[critictrue1]

Night- train

I believe that at present Israel has numerous settlements on Palestinian land similar to the stratigically placed forts in the early days of settling the land throughout North America. 220,000 inhabit these settlements in the Palestinian territories. Some settlements consist of a very small number of settlers or are uninhabited but Israel uses the protection excuse to create an appartheid land. The only difference between a suicide bomber and a missile is the method of delivery . I have noted that when the Palestinians stopped attacks, Israel needed to attack and kill suspected terrorist leaders. Now it appears that Israel will not target Hamas only others. Numerous accounts describe how settlers steal Palestinian olive crops under Israeli military protection to the point of killing farmers that object. The wall is also to promote peace.
Perhaps you should look at maps and read some articles on what is taking place rather than puting all the blame on Palestinians. Take a look at the offer that was made to the Palestinians in the Camp David Accord. Would you accept those terms?

 

[nbdysfu]

These are problems I have with the argument that while 'palestinian' attacks have stopped, the Israelis continue their violence "The Israeli army up to now had reach an agreement whereby the Israeli army would not attack militant leaders, and bombers would stay out of Israel":


1.The only thing keeping the militants out of Israel is the Israeli army and the wall which is being built.

2.The militants have not ceased in burning the star of david, nor emblazoning their walls with hate messages, have not ceased in their hate parades, they have not changed their threat, they have not ceased strapping bombs on their children, they have not ceased shoving their children or the ISN between themselves and the Israeli Military.

3. For months up to now Arafat has been saying that even if the Israelis engage in negotians, wether it is because he lacks the control necessary of a legitimate government or he has blood on his lips, he will Not stop the militants from attacking Israeli civilians.

4.The Israeli military has made it clear that they have the intent of going after anyone involved in these militant organizations, which use militant actions to further their illegitimate cause.

 

[NightTrain]

I hope I'm wrong, for the obvious implication is whether the West likes it or not, this War on Terrorism will devolve into a religious war.

Yep. Things seem to be shaping up in that direction.

 

[Annie]

That would be a quote from my long diatribe. It is one of my great fears, instead of bringing the backward countries forward, the modern will have to move back. If this happens it will be interesting to see if my mother was right, "You don't really know what you believe in until someone challenges, in a real way your beliefs."

I have a feeling that many 'secular' countries may find religion again. Wonder which they'll choose?