Hamas breaking international law?!?!?

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

My friend (P F Tinmore), I heard you say this and ask this question several times. Let's put this to rest.

HAMAS was designated a "terrorist organization" on 8 OCT1997, pursuant to Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and Sec. 212. {[8 U.S.C. 1182](P.L. 104-132, 110 Stat. 1214-1319)}.

• Ref: Foreign Terrorist Organizations

The criteria is very specific and very straight foward.

What are the criteria used by our government for the terrorist designation?

(NOTE - US Interest - Unchallengeable)

Hamas’s military wing, the Izz al Din al Qassam Brigades, has killed more than 400 Israelis, and at least 25 U.S. citizens (including some dual U.S.-Israeli citizens) in attacks since 1993.

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/R41514.pdf

(COMMENT)

Now there are all types of reasons that HAMAS was designated as a FTO. But I'm rather "old school." I got my Badge and Credentials in the '70's. If you kill but one American, during the course of a terrorist bombing, you are a terrorist. There is no question that HAMAS is a FTO; and they support other FTOs that kill Americans. And that is only ONE reason. But that one reason is good enough. Murder is murder. And when HAMAS does it as a matter of policy, in an effort to use violence, threats and intimidation to coerce their target of hate for political purposes --- THAT is another unchallengeable criteria for designation.

(TERRORIST GOAL) In most cases, you have to work at a SUBJECT in order to secure a confession. But in the case of HAMAS, they have stated it without coercion:

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
SOURCE: Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

Let's put this issue to bed. HAMAS is a destructive organization, that commits murder on a mass scale, to achieve its Islamic goals.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

R. Maintain perspective---tinnie considers all jews to be
comabatants and legal targets for muslims in
DEFENSE OF ISLAAAAAM.......

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

P F Tinmore, et al,

My friend (P F Tinmore), I heard you say this and ask this question several times. Let's put this to rest.

HAMAS was designated a "terrorist organization" on 8 OCT1997, pursuant to Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and Sec. 212. {[8 U.S.C. 1182](P.L. 104-132, 110 Stat. 1214-1319)}.

• Ref: Foreign Terrorist Organizations

The criteria is very specific and very straight foward.

What are the criteria used by our government for the terrorist designation?

(NOTE - US Interest - Unchallengeable)

Hamas’s military wing, the Izz al Din al Qassam Brigades, has killed more than 400 Israelis, and at least 25 U.S. citizens (including some dual U.S.-Israeli citizens) in attacks since 1993.

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/R41514.pdf

(COMMENT)

Now there are all types of reasons that HAMAS was designated as a FTO. But I'm rather "old school." I got my Badge and Credentials in the '70's. If you kill but one American, during the course of a terrorist bombing, you are a terrorist. There is no question that HAMAS is a FTO; and they support other FTOs that kill Americans. And that is only ONE reason. But that one reason is good enough. Murder is murder. And when HAMAS does it as a matter of policy, in an effort to use violence, threats and intimidation to coerce their target of hate for political purposes --- THAT is another unchallengeable criteria for designation.

(TERRORIST GOAL) In most cases, you have to work at a SUBJECT in order to secure a confession. But in the case of HAMAS, they have stated it without coercion:

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
SOURCE: Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

Let's put this issue to bed. HAMAS is a destructive organization, that commits murder on a mass scale, to achieve its Islamic goals.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel has killed over 1500 Palestinian children in terror attacks since 2000, so they are much bigger terrorists then Hamas!

So, we have terrorist Israel and terrorist Hamas?

Where does that take us?

 

[pbel]

Who would have though??

HRW: Hamas rockets from Gaza violated laws of ... JPost - Defense

um... anyone who knows anything about the subjectl?

Oh, miss little snippet knows about the subject. CAN YOU GIVE US YOUR NO-BRAINER analysis on the subject at hand?

I'd love to hear your Betty-Boop perspective.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

tinnie the POISON is that which galvanizes lynchings,
pogroms, and genocides-----LIBELS ie the stuff
you like to stuff down the throats of children. Every
instance of invasion, murder, pillage and rape campaign
accomplished during the GLORIOUS AGE OF ISLAMIC
CONQUEST----was galvanized by the LIBEL that the victims
of the rape and pillage campaigns were the ENEMEEEEES
OF ISLAAAAAAAM in sum and substance the
enemy of a depraved "god" All it took to justify
the rape and pillage was the fact that the victims were not
muslims. The libel included an idea that muslims were being
"persecuted" when, in fact-----all it took to "persecute"
muslims was-----doing a non muslim religion. In Afghanistan
the EXISTENCE of buddhist art was an AFFRONT TO ISLAM.
The statues were not FORCED INTO MOSQUES----they were
simply there in an obscure place----but THAT WAS AN AFFRONT
TO ISLAM I do not invent this stuff----I learned about WHY
MUSLIMs HAD A RIGHT TO INVADE LANDS all over the globe from
muslims

All that blabber and no examples.

try again----I provided an example of the RIGHTS
OF MUSLIMS TO IMPOSE ISLAM-----they did it in
afghanistan. Afghanistan was ----at one time---
a culturally DIVERSE land------Hindus, Buddhists,
Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians ---in fact, KABUL
was a cultural center----it even harbored a very
important big time Yeshiva

you comment on my posts as "blabber"
is comical in view of the fact that you
regularly and incessantly fart SHIT into
cyberspace


for the history of Iran
and to learn why iranians
HATE ARABS ---find
an intelligent Iranian

Rosie,

I thought I might address your comment about the animosity between Persians and Arabs, as my husband grew up in Iran. There is a real animosity there, a part of it flowing from the Iran Iraq War,and the horrible things Saddam did, like the widespread use of chemical weapons on Iranian soldiers. But the history goes back further than that. And I would not say Iranians hate Arabs, I do not think my husband hates Arabs. But he does say this, he cannot get too involved in caring about the Palestinians in the conflict in Palestine, keeping his distance, because there are too many human rights abuses in Iran as bad or worse and he says an Arab would never support a Persian. And he cannot stand Hezbollah, because he feels the help the Iranian government gives to them could have been used to help Iranians who have a really difficult time with an awful economy and inflation.

I think I addressed this before, but I am not sure, once we were out at what is called a sales barn in our town and and we approached three men from Saudi Arabia, they were dressed in what looked like cotton gowns to their feet, and the hostility between these men and my husband was so obvious, you could feel it in the air, they asked where he was from, and one guy said, why don't you speak Arabic, and my husband said, we don't speak Arabic in Iran. They said they had been here 11 years, but my husband told me later he did not believe them. Definite hostility and mistrust between them, and it was a cultural thing, no doubt about that.

Interesting, during the Iran Iraq war, which he was a soldier in for Iran, he was issued a gun made in the US and he picked up shipments of bullets and transported them to the front lines, and those bullets for those guns were shipped to Iran from Israel.

How the world changes and loyalties of nations shift from one day to another!

Sherri

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

My friend (P F Tinmore), I heard you say this and ask this question several times. Let's put this to rest.

HAMAS was designated a "terrorist organization" on 8 OCT1997, pursuant to Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and Sec. 212. {[8 U.S.C. 1182](P.L. 104-132, 110 Stat. 1214-1319)}.

• Ref: Foreign Terrorist Organizations

The criteria is very specific and very straight foward.

What are the criteria used by our government for the terrorist designation?

(NOTE - US Interest - Unchallengeable)



(COMMENT)

Now there are all types of reasons that HAMAS was designated as a FTO. But I'm rather "old school." I got my Badge and Credentials in the '70's. If you kill but one American, during the course of a terrorist bombing, you are a terrorist. There is no question that HAMAS is a FTO; and they support other FTOs that kill Americans. And that is only ONE reason. But that one reason is good enough. Murder is murder. And when HAMAS does it as a matter of policy, in an effort to use violence, threats and intimidation to coerce their target of hate for political purposes --- THAT is another unchallengeable criteria for designation.

(TERRORIST GOAL) In most cases, you have to work at a SUBJECT in order to secure a confession. But in the case of HAMAS, they have stated it without coercion:

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
SOURCE: Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

Let's put this issue to bed. HAMAS is a destructive organization, that commits murder on a mass scale, to achieve its Islamic goals.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel has killed over 1500 Palestinian children in terror attacks since 2000, so they are much bigger terrorists then Hamas!

So, we have terrorist Israel and terrorist Hamas?

Where does that take us?

You might read Rocco's post to get a good perspective instead of this sing-song BS you spout.

 

[pbel]

Only the third grade name callers in our state department. They don't care that Hamas does not fit the description of terrorists. They just do what Israel tells them.

Oh, Tinnie.

Gaza: Human Rights Watch Slams Hamas for War Crime Attacks on Israeli Citizens - IBTimes UK

The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Somebody should bring them up to speed.

You know Tinnie, you may be correct that Hamas has the right to resistance, however, how can you support stupidity that knows that the people your supposed to protect will suffer ten-fold...

Do the innocent civilians support their-own destruction? Hamas should be charged in a court at the Hague because they cause needless civilian deaths...

Any one with half a brain would see that peaceful resistance against overwhelming military force is the only option for success. The UN just voted for Abbas' State-hood request as a peace bonus.

 

[sealadaigh]

P F Tinmore, et al,

My friend (P F Tinmore), I heard you say this and ask this question several times. Let's put this to rest.

HAMAS was designated a "terrorist organization" on 8 OCT1997, pursuant to Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and Sec. 212. {[8 U.S.C. 1182](P.L. 104-132, 110 Stat. 1214-1319)}.

• Ref: Foreign Terrorist Organizations

The criteria is very specific and very straight foward.

What are the criteria used by our government for the terrorist designation?

(NOTE - US Interest - Unchallengeable)

Hamas’s military wing, the Izz al Din al Qassam Brigades, has killed more than 400 Israelis, and at least 25 U.S. citizens (including some dual U.S.-Israeli citizens) in attacks since 1993.

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/R41514.pdf

(COMMENT)

Now there are all types of reasons that HAMAS was designated as a FTO. But I'm rather "old school." I got my Badge and Credentials in the '70's. If you kill but one American, during the course of a terrorist bombing, you are a terrorist. There is no question that HAMAS is a FTO; and they support other FTOs that kill Americans. And that is only ONE reason. But that one reason is good enough. Murder is murder. And when HAMAS does it as a matter of policy, in an effort to use violence, threats and intimidation to coerce their target of hate for political purposes --- THAT is another unchallengeable criteria for designation.

(TERRORIST GOAL) In most cases, you have to work at a SUBJECT in order to secure a confession. But in the case of HAMAS, they have stated it without coercion:

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
SOURCE: Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

Let's put this issue to bed. HAMAS is a destructive organization, that commits murder on a mass scale, to achieve its Islamic goals.

Most Respectfully,
R

"murder" is a legal term and "mass scale" is a subjective assessment.

perhaps you will tell us how many israelis HAMAS has killed compared with how many palestinians the israelis are killed.

HAMAS iss the legitimately elected representative of the palestinian people. when people elect an arbitrarily designated "terrorist organisation" there is a reason for that.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

P F Tinmore, et al,

My friend (P F Tinmore), I heard you say this and ask this question several times. Let's put this to rest.

HAMAS was designated a "terrorist organization" on 8 OCT1997, pursuant to Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and Sec. 212. {[8 U.S.C. 1182](P.L. 104-132, 110 Stat. 1214-1319)}.

• Ref: Foreign Terrorist Organizations

The criteria is very specific and very straight foward.


(NOTE - US Interest - Unchallengeable)



(COMMENT)

Now there are all types of reasons that HAMAS was designated as a FTO. But I'm rather "old school." I got my Badge and Credentials in the '70's. If you kill but one American, during the course of a terrorist bombing, you are a terrorist. There is no question that HAMAS is a FTO; and they support other FTOs that kill Americans. And that is only ONE reason. But that one reason is good enough. Murder is murder. And when HAMAS does it as a matter of policy, in an effort to use violence, threats and intimidation to coerce their target of hate for political purposes --- THAT is another unchallengeable criteria for designation.

(TERRORIST GOAL) In most cases, you have to work at a SUBJECT in order to secure a confession. But in the case of HAMAS, they have stated it without coercion:



Let's put this issue to bed. HAMAS is a destructive organization, that commits murder on a mass scale, to achieve its Islamic goals.

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel has killed over 1500 Palestinian children in terror attacks since 2000, so they are much bigger terrorists then Hamas!

So, we have terrorist Israel and terrorist Hamas?

Where does that take us?

You might read Rocco's post to get a good perspective instead of this sing-song BS you spout.

Hossfly,

I did read it, and I am not impressed, Nelson Mandela was named as a terrorist by the US, Martin Luther King Jr was treated like a terrorist by the US, and the rulers of our world follow the prince of our world, Satan.

Who cares what the US government calls Hamas, considering who the US government follows?

I certainly could care less!

I follow Jesus, not Satan!

And I look at the facts for myself, I use the mind God gave me to think with, Israel is the one Occupying Palestine and the primary party unlawfully targeting and killing civilians and children, they murdered over 1500 children in Palestine since 2000! They murdered over 1000 innocent Lebanese civilians in 2006, 40% or more of whom were children.

I say, I could care less who the US government calls terrorists, I see Israel as the major terrorist here and people of conscience in our world will never stop opposing these war crimes Israel is carrying out in their unlawful Occupation of Palestine as long as they continue!

I would prefer neither side attack and kill, civilians or anyone else, and I do not support killing of anyone and want no part of any of that, but the fact is there are people who choose violence on both sides, and as long as there is an Occupation and that Occupation is maintained with violence, there will be violent resistance to that Occupation, and that resistance is lawful under intl law. I cannot see demonizing the ones occupied for resisting their occupation with violence, when it is a natural thing to do and even legal under intl law.

Another point, terror acts, they are also being carried out by both sides. Israel's targeting of civilians are terror acts, as much as Hamas or other Palestinian group's acts in firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel are. The only difference is Israel's terror acts injure and kill many more innocent civilians than do the terror acts of Palestinians.

Sherri

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

My friend (P F Tinmore), I heard you say this and ask this question several times. Let's put this to rest.

HAMAS was designated a "terrorist organization" on 8 OCT1997, pursuant to Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and Sec. 212. {[8 U.S.C. 1182](P.L. 104-132, 110 Stat. 1214-1319)}.

• Ref: Foreign Terrorist Organizations

The criteria is very specific and very straight foward.

What are the criteria used by our government for the terrorist designation?

(NOTE - US Interest - Unchallengeable)

Hamas’s military wing, the Izz al Din al Qassam Brigades, has killed more than 400 Israelis, and at least 25 U.S. citizens (including some dual U.S.-Israeli citizens) in attacks since 1993.

Source: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/R41514.pdf

(COMMENT)

Now there are all types of reasons that HAMAS was designated as a FTO. But I'm rather "old school." I got my Badge and Credentials in the '70's. If you kill but one American, during the course of a terrorist bombing, you are a terrorist. There is no question that HAMAS is a FTO; and they support other FTOs that kill Americans. And that is only ONE reason. But that one reason is good enough. Murder is murder. And when HAMAS does it as a matter of policy, in an effort to use violence, threats and intimidation to coerce their target of hate for political purposes --- THAT is another unchallengeable criteria for designation.

(TERRORIST GOAL) In most cases, you have to work at a SUBJECT in order to secure a confession. But in the case of HAMAS, they have stated it without coercion:

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
SOURCE: Palestine Center - The Charter of the Hamas

Let's put this issue to bed. HAMAS is a destructive organization, that commits murder on a mass scale, to achieve its Islamic goals.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where those Americans killed the US?

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

Our friend "pbel" makes a very valid point.

BUT! Whether or not a "Right to Resist" (Sabotage, Sedition, Insurrection) exists and is valid, it cannot be the case that it supersedes Article 51/52, Protocol I and IHL - Rule 97. (Which I discussed in the link excerpted below; no use beating a dead horse.) Nor, does it exempt them from accountability under the Rome Statues and GCIV.

Oh, Tinnie.

Gaza: Human Rights Watch Slams Hamas for War Crime Attacks on Israeli Citizens - IBTimes UK

The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Somebody should bring them up to speed.

You know Tinnie, you may be correct that Hamas has the right to resistance, however, how can you support stupidity that knows that the people your supposed to protect will suffer ten-fold...

Do the innocent civilians support their-own destruction? Hamas should be charged in a court at the Hague because they cause needless civilian deaths...

Any one with half a brain would see that peaceful resistance against overwhelming military force is the only option for success. The UN just voted for Abbas' State-hood request as a peace bonus.

(COMMENT)

There is a strong possibility that the Palestinian People have the "Right to Resist" a standing government. But in doing so, they must also accept the responsibility for the outcome (win or lose).

If the Palestinians lose, and they openly acknowledge, demonstrate by deed, and/or public accept responsibility for actions that are prohibited by the norm of customary international law, they will be held accountable and history will not only shame their deeds and actions, but the overall cause that they held above customary international law.

Again, our friend "pbel" suggests an alternative. It is a peaceful path and one avenue that most moderates would support. But, it is not the only asymmetric alternative that is still inside the norm of customary international law.

It also does not rule-out the potential for reparations and equity settlements that might be awarded in the arbitration for peace. Remember, no party to this Regional Solution is entirely without blame.

Most Respectfully,
R

Reference:

P F Tinmore, et al,
(Article 51, Protocol I).
[(Article 52, Protocol I)].

• 
  Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
• International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977

• Rule 97. The use of human shields is prohibited.
• Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
  
  "In addition, deliberately using civilians to shield military operations is contrary to the principle of distinction and violates the obligation to take feasible precautions to separate civilians and military objectives (see Rules 23–24)."​

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

pbel, P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

Our friend "pbel" makes a very valid point.

BUT! Whether or not a "Right to Resist" (Sabotage, Sedition, Insurrection) exists and is valid, it cannot be the case that it supersedes Article 51/52, Protocol I and IHL - Rule 97. (Which I discussed in the link excerpted below; no use beating a dead horse.) Nor, does it exempt them from accountability under the Rome Statues and GCIV.

The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Somebody should bring them up to speed.

You know Tinnie, you may be correct that Hamas has the right to resistance, however, how can you support stupidity that knows that the people your supposed to protect will suffer ten-fold...

Do the innocent civilians support their-own destruction? Hamas should be charged in a court at the Hague because they cause needless civilian deaths...

Any one with half a brain would see that peaceful resistance against overwhelming military force is the only option for success. The UN just voted for Abbas' State-hood request as a peace bonus.

(COMMENT)

There is a strong possibility that the Palestinian People have the "Right to Resist" a standing government. But in doing so, they must also accept the responsibility for the outcome (win or lose).

If the Palestinians lose, and they openly acknowledge, demonstrate by deed, and/or public accept responsibility for actions that are prohibited by the norm of customary international law, they will be held accountable and history will not only shame their deeds and actions, but the overall cause that they held above customary international law.

Again, our friend "pbel" suggests an alternative. It is a peaceful path and one avenue that most moderates would support. But, it is not the only asymmetric alternative that is still inside the norm of customary international law.

It also does not rule-out the potential for reparations and equity settlements that might be awarded in the arbitration for peace. Remember, no party to this Regional Solution is entirely without blame.

Most Respectfully,
R

Reference:

P F Tinmore, et al,
(Article 51, Protocol I).
[(Article 52, Protocol I)].

• 
  Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
• International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977

• Rule 97. The use of human shields is prohibited.
• Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
  
  "In addition, deliberately using civilians to shield military operations is contrary to the principle of distinction and violates the obligation to take feasible precautions to separate civilians and military objectives (see Rules 23–24)."​

RoccoR,

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the human rights groups only find Israel is using civilians as human shields? I refer you to Amnesty and HRW's reports of Cast Lead that prove this to be true.

Btselem documents Israel's practice of using civilians as human shields as going all the way back to 2002.

"On 6 October 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the army to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The court ruled on a petition submitted by Adalah in the name of B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations in 2002. The petition followed the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during operations carried out in densely populated Palestinian areas, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield. The method was the same each time: soldiers picked a civilian at random and forced him to protect them with his body, and do dangerous tasks for them. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:enter buildings to check if they are booby-trapped, or to remove the occupants; remove suspicious objects from roads; stand inside houses where soldiers set up military positions, so that Palestinians would not fire at them; and walk in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire, while the soldiers point a gun to their backs and sometimes fire over their shoulders. The soldiers in the field did not initiate this practice; rather, the order to use civilians as a means of protection was made by senior army officials.In August 2002, Nidal Abu Mheisen, a 19-year-old Palestinian from Tubas, was killed by Palestinian gunfire when soldiers forced him to serve as a human shield"

Human Shields | B'Tselem

No reference to using civilians as human shields in that HRW report addressed in the OP, all of Gaza is a densely populated civilian area, the Palestinians there, over 80% are refugees ethnically cleansed from Israel, and forced into this densely populated civilian area.

And you are ignoring the fact that the human rights groups keep finding Israel is committing war crimes in operations in Gaza, too?

This is from HRW, a deliberate attack on a family in their home (that killed 12, 10 in the house attacked, that included 4 children, and two neighbors,) that was a war crime:

"New York) – An Israeli airstrike that killed 12 civilians – the largest number of civilians killed in a single attack during the Gaza fighting in November – was a clear violation of the laws of war. On November 18, 2012, Israeli forces dropped what appears to have been a large aerial bomb on the three-story home of the Dalu family in Gaza City, killing 10 members of the household – one man, five women, and four children. A young man and an elderly woman of the Muzannar family next door were also killed."

Israel/Gaza: Israeli Airstrike on Home Unlawful | Human Rights Watch

Why can't you deal with all of the facts?

Sherri

 

[P F Tinmore]

pbel, P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

Our friend "pbel" makes a very valid point.

BUT! Whether or not a "Right to Resist" (Sabotage, Sedition, Insurrection) exists and is valid, it cannot be the case that it supersedes Article 51/52, Protocol I and IHL - Rule 97. (Which I discussed in the link excerpted below; no use beating a dead horse.) Nor, does it exempt them from accountability under the Rome Statues and GCIV.

The nationals of an occupying power are not considered "civilians" by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Somebody should bring them up to speed.

You know Tinnie, you may be correct that Hamas has the right to resistance, however, how can you support stupidity that knows that the people your supposed to protect will suffer ten-fold...

Do the innocent civilians support their-own destruction? Hamas should be charged in a court at the Hague because they cause needless civilian deaths...

Any one with half a brain would see that peaceful resistance against overwhelming military force is the only option for success. The UN just voted for Abbas' State-hood request as a peace bonus.

(COMMENT)

There is a strong possibility that the Palestinian People have the "Right to Resist" a standing government. But in doing so, they must also accept the responsibility for the outcome (win or lose).

If the Palestinians lose, and they openly acknowledge, demonstrate by deed, and/or public accept responsibility for actions that are prohibited by the norm of customary international law, they will be held accountable and history will not only shame their deeds and actions, but the overall cause that they held above customary international law.

Again, our friend "pbel" suggests an alternative. It is a peaceful path and one avenue that most moderates would support. But, it is not the only asymmetric alternative that is still inside the norm of customary international law.

It also does not rule-out the potential for reparations and equity settlements that might be awarded in the arbitration for peace. Remember, no party to this Regional Solution is entirely without blame.

Most Respectfully,
R

Reference:

P F Tinmore, et al,
(Article 51, Protocol I).
[(Article 52, Protocol I)].

• 
  Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)
• International Humanitarian Law - Additional Protocol I 1977

• Rule 97. The use of human shields is prohibited.
• Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields
  
  "In addition, deliberately using civilians to shield military operations is contrary to the principle of distinction and violates the obligation to take feasible precautions to separate civilians and military objectives (see Rules 23–24)."​

OK, but there are some things that I believe change the debate. The title of your link is "Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts." This is not an international conflict. Hamas does not operate outside of Palestine's borders.

Another point is that the nationals of an occupying power are exempt from the protection granted to civilians.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Interesting question. It implies a position.

Where those Americans killed (in) the US?

(ANSWER)

No. Not one. They were all Regional Homicides.

(COMMENT)

Makes no difference.

(iii) TERRORIST ACTIVITY DEFINED.-As used in this Act, the term "terrorist activity" means any activity which is unlawful under the laws of the place where it is committed (or which, if it had been committed in the United States, would be unlawful under the laws of the United States or any State) and which involves any of the following:

(I) The highjacking or sabotage of any conveyance (including an aircraft, vessel, or vehicle).

(II) The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained.

(III) A violent attack upon an internationally protected person (as defined in section 1116(b)(4) of title 18, United States Code) or upon the liberty of such a person.

(IV) An assassination.

(V) The use of any-

(aa) biological agent, chemical agent, or nuclear weapon or device, or

(bb) explosive, firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device (other than for mere personal monetary gain), with intent to endanger, directly or indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause substantial damage to property.​

Source: INA: ACT 212 - GENERAL CLASSES OF ALIENS INELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE VISAS AND INELIGIBLE FOR ADMISSION; WAIVERS OF INADMISSIBILLITY

If you are a terrorist, and you kill an American anywhere in the world, extra-territorial conditions come into play.

I think you are confusing what the distinction is between the sub-classes of a domestic terrorist and an international terrorist. Please don't get confused.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Interesting question. It implies a position.

Where those Americans killed (in) the US?

(ANSWER)

No. Not one. They were all Regional Homicides.

(COMMENT)

Makes no difference.

(iii) TERRORIST ACTIVITY DEFINED.-As used in this Act, the term "terrorist activity" means any activity which is unlawful under the laws of the place where it is committed (or which, if it had been committed in the United States, would be unlawful under the laws of the United States or any State) and which involves any of the following:

(I) The highjacking or sabotage of any conveyance (including an aircraft, vessel, or vehicle).

(II) The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained.

(III) A violent attack upon an internationally protected person (as defined in section 1116(b)(4) of title 18, United States Code) or upon the liberty of such a person.

(IV) An assassination.

(V) The use of any-

(aa) biological agent, chemical agent, or nuclear weapon or device, or

(bb) explosive, firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device (other than for mere personal monetary gain), with intent to endanger, directly or indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause substantial damage to property.​

Source: INA: ACT 212 - GENERAL CLASSES OF ALIENS INELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE VISAS AND INELIGIBLE FOR ADMISSION; WAIVERS OF INADMISSIBILLITY

If you are a terrorist, and you kill an American anywhere in the world, extra-territorial conditions come into play.

I think you are confusing what the distinction is between the sub-classes of a domestic terrorist and an international terrorist. Please don't get confused.

Most Respectfully,
R

Were they targeted as American citizens?

Remember, Israel killed an American citizen.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, I hear this all the time. There is a mistake here on two levels.

OK, but there are some things that I believe change the debate. The title of your link is "Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts." This is not an international conflict. Hamas does not operate outside of Palestine's borders.

Another point is that the nationals of an occupying power are exempt from the protection granted to civilians.

(COMMENT)

You have to consider a couple of things:

• First: We can argue all you want, but - Palestine is a Regional Designation --- not a international boundary. An assault against an "Occupation Power" is by definition, international.

• Second: If you are conducting armed action any recognized international boundary where the administration changes in terms of state control, you have become international.

• Third: If you are conducting and armed conflict by means of weapons smuggled across international boundaries, weapons transferred in violation of international law, or weapons brought in by a third party (state or non-state actors) with the intent to further criminal or terrorist actives, then it becomes "international."

Illegal activity cannot be masked under the cover of an organization, state, or international activity using boundaries in dispute.

You cannot shield misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, by arguing the sovereignty issue. You cannot conduct armed asymmetric activity against citizens of ANY nation (Israel included) which are not engaged in combat operations. And you cannot hide behind the distinction between "domestic" and "international" terrorism. Terrorism is terrorism.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah, I hear this all the time. There is a mistake here on two levels.

OK, but there are some things that I believe change the debate. The title of your link is "Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts." This is not an international conflict. Hamas does not operate outside of Palestine's borders.

Another point is that the nationals of an occupying power are exempt from the protection granted to civilians.

(COMMENT)

You have to consider a couple of things:

• First: We can argue all you want, but - Palestine is a Regional Designation --- not a international boundary. An assault against an "Occupation Power" is by definition, international.

• Second: If you are conducting armed action any recognized international boundary where the administration changes in terms of state control, you have become international.

• Third: If you are conducting and armed conflict by means of weapons smuggled across international boundaries, weapons transferred in violation of international law, or weapons brought in by a third party (state or non-state actors) with the intent to further criminal or terrorist actives, then it becomes "international."

Illegal activity cannot be masked under the cover of an organization, state, or international activity using boundaries in dispute.

You cannot shield misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, by arguing the sovereignty issue. You cannot conduct armed asymmetric activity against citizens of ANY nation (Israel included) which are not engaged in combat operations. And you cannot hide behind the distinction between "domestic" and "international" terrorism. Terrorism is terrorism.

Most Respectfully,
R

I think you are mistaken. Palestine was declared a newly created state by the League of Nations and its international borders were defined. After the 1948 war, Palestine was still called Palestine and its international borders remained unchanged.

None of Palestine's neighbors dispute their borders.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.

Were they targeted as American citizens?

Remember, Israel killed an American citizen.

(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Ah, yes. I've heard this before.

Were they targeted as American citizens?

Remember, Israel killed an American citizen.

(COMMENT)

Yes, indiscriminate targeting is a characteristic of many terrorist actions.

Rest assured, in every case where the nation of Israel (GOI) is directly or indirectly involved in the death of an American through misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance, it is throughly investigated. There have been many, many cases where the GOI has been brought to justice and an equitable settlement arranged.

But, again --- this is subterfuge. The commission of a crime by one party is not justification for the commission of a crime by another party.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't believe that they were targeted as Americans.

Do you have a link?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

No, I'm not mistaken.

I think you are mistaken. Palestine was declared a newly created state by the League of Nations and its international borders were defined. After the 1948 war, Palestine was still called Palestine and its international borders remained unchanged.

None of Palestine's neighbors dispute their borders.

(COMMENT)

This is the cornerstone of the dispute. You are again confusing the two administrative districts under the Mandate.

But, if the Arabs/Palestinians believe they have a cause of action, they can take it to court. After all, it was the Western Powers that created the boundaries throughout the region.

OR --- the Palestinians and the Israelis can enter into an agreement sanctioned by the International community.

Without regard to the boundary disputes, there is no cause of action that justifies Arab/Palestinian asymmetric conflict through terrorist means.

Most Respectfully,
R