Gunman kills 2 in missionary center

[M14 Shooter]

There is a difference between a private citizen like me (someone with no license having a gun) and a security guard (having a license and a background check)being chosen to guard.

I dont give a hoot about you -- the difference between him and me is that he gets paid.
How is that difference relevant?

This shooting, along with all the other schoo/mall/whatever shootings, indicates that armed civilians are more effctive than the police in stopping people like this.

 

[Annie]

There is a difference between a private citizen like me (someone with no license having a gun) and a security guard (having a license and a background check)being chosen to guard. Okay. Okay. If a security guard is the same as a private citizen, can we agree that there needs to be more security guards. How about that? Ha ha ha.

The only regulations in Illinios appears to be a background check based on fingerprints. Oh yeah, pay for license. Of course if you are going to be armed, you need to be licensed to carry.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It appears the guard was a volunteer.

 

[jillian]

It appears the guard was a volunteer.

They played a tape of her on Scarborough's show this a.m..... she's something else.

 

[M14 Shooter]

They played a tape of her on Scarborough's show this a.m..... she's something else.

I didn't see it.
Something else... how?

 

[jillian]

I didn't see it.
Something else... how?

I thought she was pretty awesome.

 

[Shogun]

HA!

AND a woman!


nice.

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I thought she was pretty awesome.

"I give the credit to God. And I say that very humbly. God was with me and the whole time I was behind cover -- this has got to be God, because of the firepower that [the gunman] had vs. what I had," Assam said.

"I did not run away and I didn't think for a minute to run away, I just knew that I was given the assignment to end this before it got too much worse. I just prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me."

She told reporters she had not slept since the shooting, "as I'm sure you can tell."

She said she was on the third day of a three-day regimen of fasting and prayer, wanting to know God's will for what to do with her life, when the shooting took place.

"I was weak, and where I was weak, God made me strong," she said. "He filled me and he guided me and protected me and many other people. And I'm honored that God chose me."

Assam was one of about a dozen volunteer security guards at the church, half of whom are armed, Boyd said. The guards are licensed, trained and screened, and are church members, not "mercenaries," he said

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html

Thank Guard that His Gunlady was there! He was at his wits end trying to think of ways of stopping this murdering (Muslim?) Satanist's rampage.

Seriously though, what a clasic example of the urgent need for gun control.

Here we have a clearly certifiable, delusional paranoid schizophrenic - who imagines that starving herself will improve her dicey mental condition - who sees herself as God's Avenging Angel.

Yet this mental case, who is obviously only one line of self-servingly interpreted Scripture away from mass murdering in the Messiah's Holy Name, is packing legal heat!

 

[AllieBaba]

from story

"Police arrived to find that the gunman had been killed by a member of the church's armed security staff, Myers said.


One has to ask themselves a number of questions, why would a church have armed security guards? Are we becoming Iraq? Does a gun, a weapon, give the murderer a sense of power they would not normally have? Why do so many worship guns? In a nation in which guns are glorified we have to live with the consequences of that glorification, executing crazies after the fact changes nothing.

Perhaps because they were afraid that something like this might happen, and chose to be able to defend themselves, rather than wait until afterwards, and just clean up carnage?

This crazy got executed during the fact. If he'd been executed after the fact, more probably would have died.

 

[Diuretic]

Fool!! Only the police and military have the training necessary to effectively and safely use guns in public!!

True to a degree.

 

[Diuretic]

Not enough. But then again, private citizens don't carry. If more states loosened up their CCW laws that might change. Many of these types of incidents are brought to a screeching halt by off duty officers who carry...a concealed weapon. Granted, they have the training, but then I am advocate of any and all gun owners being properly trained in using their weapons, especially handguns, and even more so if they desire a CCW permit. There's no reason a person who wants to carry shouldn't be able to pass the Hogan's Alley of their local constabulary.

Reasonable points. But even a full-time police officer has to be trained in new doctrines and revised doctrines. Passing a Hogan's Alley isn't the same as going after an active shooter.

 

[Gunny]

Reasonable points. But even a full-time police officer has to be trained in new doctrines and revised doctrines. Passing a Hogan's Alley isn't the same as going after an active shooter.

Nothing is the same as going after an active shooter. No training ever will be because it will always be in the back of one's mind it's training, and in the end, there are do-overs.

You only get to screw up once for real.

 

[Diuretic]

Nothing is the same as going after an active shooter. No training ever will be because it will always be in the back of one's mind it's training, and in the end, there are do-overs.

You only get to screw up once for real.

The thing about training is that it's preparation for an event (yes, I am Captain Obvious). But aside from the physical and cognitive skills necessary for that event there's the emotional preparation as well. And the tactical skills consideration. I am a stubborn so and so but I will stick to my idea that having more CCW citizens isn't the sole answer to shooter situations such as Omaha and of course now in Colorado (news is coming in here about the Vegas situation but not enough info to make any judgements of course).

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The thing about training is that it's preparation for an event (yes, I am Captain Obvious). But aside from the physical and cognitive skills necessary for that event there's the emotional preparation as well. And the tactical skills consideration. I am a stubborn so and so but I will stick to my idea that having more CCW citizens isn't the sole answer to shooter situations such as Omaha and of course now in Colorado (news is coming in here about the Vegas situation but not enough info to make any judgements of course).

No one claims it is the SOLE answer. And to respond in kind, depending on the few and far between law enforcement armed personnel is not now nor has it ever been the SOLE answer. Yet gun grabbers would have us believe JUST that.

A while back a guy called police to report burglers IN his garage while he and his family were IN the home. The response was " we are to busy, your in no danger, we will respond in an hour or so when a unit is free, just lock all your doors and windows and stay away from the Garage"

He hung up, waited a few moments and called back. He told the dispatcher that there was no hurry to respond, he had shot the burglers, they could take there time. Within moments multiple previously busy units arrived to arrest him. As they handcuffed him he directed them to the Garage where they caught the burglers still rifling through his things, you see he had not shot anyone. He was charged with making a false claim to 911. But the supposed busy cops sure found time to respond and his Burglers were arrested..

 

[Diuretic]

No one claims it is the SOLE answer. And to respond in kind, depending on the few and far between law enforcement armed personnel is not now nor has it ever been the SOLE answer. Yet gun grabbers would have us believe JUST that.

A while back a guy called police to report burglers IN his garage while he and his family were IN the home. The response was " we are to busy, your in no danger, we will respond in an hour or so when a unit is free, just lock all your doors and windows and stay away from the Garage"

He hung up, waited a few moments and called back. He told the dispatcher that there was no hurry to respond, he had shot the burglers, they could take there time. Within moments multiple previously busy units arrived to arrest him. As they handcuffed him he directed them to the Garage where they caught the burglers still rifling through his things, you see he had not shot anyone. He was charged with making a false claim to 911. But the supposed busy cops sure found time to respond and his Burglers were arrested..

Yes I've heard that one before, it's very good (and totally accurate). But to your first point.

I agree.

The reality is that the police aren't there to protect you or anyone specifically. That's not their job. Your safety and the safety of anyone else is a by-product of the existence of the police and the entire justice system. The police are there to try and maintain order and to try and prevent crime and when they fail at crime prevention to try and find whodunnit and get them in front of a court. You are well advised to - if you haven't already - to get a CCW permit and get skilled up so you can defend yourself and yours. I'm fully in support of that. I'd do exactly that if I lived anywhere in the US and you could be damn sure if I did have a choice of residence it would be in a state that had CCW permits because I would want one.

 

[Gunny]

The thing about training is that it's preparation for an event (yes, I am Captain Obvious). But aside from the physical and cognitive skills necessary for that event there's the emotional preparation as well. And the tactical skills consideration. I am a stubborn so and so but I will stick to my idea that having more CCW citizens isn't the sole answer to shooter situations such as Omaha and of course now in Colorado (news is coming in here about the Vegas situation but not enough info to make any judgements of course).

I understand quite well the purpose of repetitious training. I did not suggest that it did not have its merit. Only that it isn't the same as being faced with a real-world situation.

And I agree that having more CCW citizens is not the sole answer. Keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals would probably work even better. I await your proposed solution.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Seriously though, what a clasic example of the urgent need for gun control.

Yes... an armed citizen stopping a mass murderer is a classic example if why it should be -harder- for citizens to arm themselves.

 

[M14 Shooter]

True to a degree.

Except, of course, we see all the time where both police and the military fail miserably in this regard.

And, of course, the entire idea that the police are SO much more qualified than the typical person tha carries a gun is abject fallacy.

Just recently, there was a topic on this board about a guy being shot at by police with 20 rounds from less than 10 feet away, being hit a mere 8 times.
Thank God those police officers weren't at that church...

 

[M14 Shooter]

No one claims it is the SOLE answer. And to respond in kind, depending on the few and far between law enforcement armed personnel is not now nor has it ever been the SOLE answer. Yet gun grabbers would have us believe JUST that.

As I asked earlier:
How many of these school/mall/whatever shootings have been stopped by the police?
How many have been stopped by an armed citizen?

 

[Diuretic]

I understand quite well the purpose of repetitious training. I did not suggest that it did not have its merit. Only that it isn't the same as being faced with a real-world situation.

Of course - heck I assumed that as I read your post. I was, I think, reflecting on the nature of training and then that feeling you get when you realise, ".....<expletive> this is really happening!" Training is good, it enables you to stay with the event. Although I do remember reading (Calibre Press book I used to have before someone decided they liked it better than me) where a cop somewhere in the US was killed in a store shooting I think it was. He was exchanging fire with the offender and leaned over to pick up the empty brass from the floor....just like he'd been told to do on the range.

And I agree that having more CCW citizens is not the sole answer. Keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals would probably work even better. I await your proposed solution.

What, for no professional fee??????