Great Britain fines free speech during Olympics

[del]

I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning how Jillian can't tell the difference between an Olympic Opening Ceremony and a Basketball Game. It's a competency related issue. I'm not that into sports, but I'm pretty confident I could tell the difference.

Oh really? You'd think a competent mind would immediately see that such a factoid would be totally beside the point...

Beside the point? She didn't even know where it took place, yet alone manage a rational consideration of the issue. The nazi salute offends me, along with pretty much every decent being on the planet... does that mean we should shut them up? Personally, I'm not convinced. I'm not saying the fine etc was wrong... or right... I haven't decided what I think about it... but that's because I tend to think about an issue logically and with consideration rather than emotion.

 

[del]

Not good. You may not like what he said, but if you have a government that punishes speech then you have an oppressive government. And in fact, you don't even know exactly what he said that was supposed to have been worth $4K.

He may have just said something like, "get that monkey" off his back b/c he was fouling and all of the sudden it's considered "racism" and worthy of draining his bank account.

The man that gives away his liberties to word police, does not deserve them. You bob, do not deserve your free speech. You have happily accepted your lot.

Whatever. Fuck him. Anyone that makes ape noises at blacks and gives nazi salutes is going to get no sympathy from me.

I don't disagree... it's sickening... but there is a large part of me that says I'd rather these people were out in the open than hiding... they're far more dangerous when they're hiding.

you mean like *reenactors*?

 

[Dr Grump]

Facts and Jillian parted company some time ago.

The FACT remains, the man was rightfully fined and removed from the venue.

I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning how Jillian can't tell the difference between an Olympic Opening Ceremony and a Basketball Game. It's a competency related issue. I'm not that into sports, but I'm pretty confident I could tell the difference.

And you can't tell the difference between 'opening ceremony' and 'ceremony'...what was that about competency again?

 

[manifold]

It's hypocritical based on the facts of your definition. You want "hateful" and "racist" speech fined. What do you think denying the holocaust is? Yes it's a "political" position but it is also "hateful" and "racist." That you are willing to prosecute one form of hate speech and not the other is total hypocrisy.

He'd only support prosecuting someone for denying the holocaust if they did so while giving a nazi salute and scratching their armpit like a monkey. Because that makes all the difference don't you know.

OK, well if that's where this is going I'll leave you both to it. I've tried to explain the distinction I see reasonably but clearly you're not going to see it, so there's very little point in discussing it further.

I see it just fine. What you consider a slight inconsistency in your position is actually an irreconcilable contradiction. You either defend free speech from government infringement, or you don't. You've fooled yourself into believing that it's ok to defend some speech from government infringement but not other speech. According to you, this same guy could go to an event with Israeli athletes and start shouting that the holocaust was a hoax and that would be protected speech, but making monkey noises is worthy of criminal prosecution.

 

[Dr Grump]

[

You either defend free speech from government infringement, or you don't.

Nope, there are caveats. And that Lithuanian loser just found out about one of them....

 

[manifold]

I also hear that the US is about to pass a law aimed at the Westboro loons that says you can't protest a funeral of a member of the armed services any more. Gee, does that mean Americans HATE free speech, or that there are some loons out there that will take the mindset of freedom loving folks to the nth degree and abuse what free speech is suposed to all aobut..

It means free speech took another one on the chin.

 

[tigerbob]

He'd only support prosecuting someone for denying the holocaust if they did so while giving a nazi salute and scratching their armpit like a monkey. Because that makes all the difference don't you know.

OK, well if that's where this is going I'll leave you both to it. I've tried to explain the distinction I see reasonably but clearly you're not going to see it, so there's very little point in discussing it further.

I see it just fine. What you consider a slight inconsistency in your position is actually an irreconcilable contradiction. You either defend free speech from government infringement, or you don't. You've fooled yourself into believing that it's ok to defend some speech from government infringement but not other speech. According to you, this same guy could go to an event with Israeli athletes and start shouting that the holocaust was a hoax and that would be protected speech, but making monkey noises is worthy of criminal prosecution.

No, I'm prepared to admit that that's a very interesting parallel and one that I would need to consider very carefully.

 

[Dr Grump]

I also hear that the US is about to pass a law aimed at the Westboro loons that says you can't protest a funeral of a member of the armed services any more. Gee, does that mean Americans HATE free speech, or that there are some loons out there that will take the mindset of freedom loving folks to the nth degree and abuse what free speech is suposed to all aobut..

It means free speech took another one on the chin.

Nope, it means some loser got his just desserts...

 

[Valerie]

I also hear that the US is about to pass a law aimed at the Westboro loons that says you can't protest a funeral of a member of the armed services any more. Gee, does that mean Americans HATE free speech, or that there are some loons out there that will take the mindset of freedom loving folks to the nth degree and abuse what free speech is suposed to all aobut..

It means free speech took another one on the chin.

Nope, it means some loser got his just desserts...

Yep.



BTW I once had an argument with a friend about the correct usage of just desserts vs just deserts, as I had always assumed it meant how one got justice at the end...at the end, as in dessert, after dinner...with two esses lol But as it turned out I was wrong as I realized it meant just deserts, meaning those in the right had deserted all sympathy for him...



He got his just deserts.

 

[jillian]

I also hear that the US is about to pass a law aimed at the Westboro loons that says you can't protest a funeral of a member of the armed services any more. Gee, does that mean Americans HATE free speech, or that there are some loons out there that will take the mindset of freedom loving folks to the nth degree and abuse what free speech is suposed to all aobut..

It means free speech took another one on the chin.

you know, the case law, even in this country, doesn't give an absolute right to "free speech". for example... defamation... or commercial speech... or any other number of circumstances.

most people use their common sense in deciding what should be controlled.

and there are contexts which by their nature, permit limitations to free speech... like the olympics.... or when you're a teacher... or when you write things about your employer on Facebook.

 

[manifold]

I also hear that the US is about to pass a law aimed at the Westboro loons that says you can't protest a funeral of a member of the armed services any more. Gee, does that mean Americans HATE free speech, or that there are some loons out there that will take the mindset of freedom loving folks to the nth degree and abuse what free speech is suposed to all aobut..

It means free speech took another one on the chin.

you know, the case law, even in this country, doesn't give an absolute right to "free speech". for example... defamation... or commercial speech... or any other number of circumstances.

most people use their common sense in deciding what should be controlled.

and there are contexts which by their nature, permit limitations to free speech... like the olympics.... or when you're a teacher... or when you write things about your employer on Facebook.

Thanks for soundly refuting a point I never made.

Damn, some of you folks are really awesome at that.

 

[Noomi]

Yea.

A Lithuania fan made Nazi gestures and monkey chants during a game against Nigeria on Tuesday. He pleaded guilty to a charge of "racially aggravated behavior" and was fined $3,910 by a London court. A lawyer for the fan said Wednesday his client believed such behavior was acceptable at sports events at home.

Behavior like that should NEVER be acceptable.

 

[manifold]

Yea.

A Lithuania fan made Nazi gestures and monkey chants during a game against Nigeria on Tuesday. He pleaded guilty to a charge of "racially aggravated behavior" and was fined $3,910 by a London court. A lawyer for the fan said Wednesday his client believed such behavior was acceptable at sports events at home.

Behavior like that should NEVER be acceptable.

That doesn't mean it should be prosecuted.

 

[Swagger]

Didn't the American Pledge of Allegiance include a Nazi-like salute back in 'the day'?

 

[Swagger]

Oh, and by the way. For those of you who seem to believe that America holds some kind of free speech highground over the rest of the world, think again. These children expressed opinions held by many, but were removed from their school for holding such views. Even though many people of colour make disparaging, yet valid, observations about other races. Seems to me that whites are, for whatever reason, held to a much, much higher standard.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAR2h5aSQO4"]Teens Forced Out of Gainsville High School for Saying What So Many Think:[/ame]

 

[Ravi]

London is hosting the Olympics. Great Britain is paying for security. Therefore they have every right to enforce sanctions against bad behavior.

 

[manifold]

London is hosting the Olympics. Great Britain is paying for security. Therefore they have every right to enforce sanctions against bad behavior.

I agree that they have every right to kick the guy out of the event, and ban him from attending any future events. I vehemently disagree with the British Government having the authority to fine him for making monkey noises and giving a nazi salute.

 

[Ravi]

London is hosting the Olympics. Great Britain is paying for security. Therefore they have every right to enforce sanctions against bad behavior.

I agree that they have every right to kick the guy out of the event, and ban him from attending any future events. I vehemently disagree with the British Government having the authority to fine him for making monkey noises and giving a nazi salute.

Why? It cost them money to deal with him.

 

[manifold]

London is hosting the Olympics. Great Britain is paying for security. Therefore they have every right to enforce sanctions against bad behavior.

I agree that they have every right to kick the guy out of the event, and ban him from attending any future events. I vehemently disagree with the British Government having the authority to fine him for making monkey noises and giving a nazi salute.

Why? It cost them money to deal with him.

Since when is that the standard?

 

[Swagger]

London is hosting the Olympics. Great Britain is paying for security. Therefore they have every right to enforce sanctions against bad behavior.

I agree that they have every right to kick the guy out of the event, and ban him from attending any future events. I vehemently disagree with the British Government having the authority to fine him for making monkey noises and giving a nazi salute.

So do I. Though what do you think would happen if someone made a big show of making Nazi salutes on 5th Avenue during the day?