Graduation Prayer and Legal Precedence

[geauxtohell]

As has been noted on here, a federal appeals court has reversed a federal judge's opinion that a young woman named Angela Hildenbrand could not legally pray on the podium during her graduation ceremony.

Court Lifts Ban On Texas Graduation Prayer : NPR

On June 6th, Hildenbrand delivered her address and prayer:

Lord, I thank you so much for the blessing of this day. And I just thank you for the amazing group of people that you surrounded me with.

God, I thank you for the support of our whole entire community through this case hearing; and also for Erin (Leu)and all the people at the Liberty Institute; and my parents, who’ve helped get me through the last couple of days.

Lord, I just thank you so much for your presence in our lives through these 18 years. And I just praise you for your incredible faithfulness through all adversity and all joy.

God, I thank you for the men and women who have given their lives helping to give us, and protect, the freedoms that we have today. And I ask that you please keep your hand of guidance on all of them — past, present and future military.

God, I thank you just so much for the freedom to be here today. And most of all, I thank you for loving us first.

God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways. And I can’t wait to see where you’ll be leading each of us. I ask that you’ll ask us all to remember where we come from, and to know where we stand.

God, I thank you for the gift of your Son and for the forgiveness that surpasses all understanding. And most of all, I thank you for your great love for us, and for our great nation, where we are free.

And it’s in Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

Prayer Steals the Show at Texas Graduation | CitizenLink

(A video can also be found at the link).

I disagree, but respect the court's ruling, and I have to admire this young woman for fighting for something she felt was right.

However, now that this precedent has been set and the legality of the matter is not in dispute, would you accept a Muslim student calling their classmates to prayer at the podium of their graduation?

If not, how (in your opinion) is it different?

I started a separate thread on this after noticing that some members of the forum discussing the issue wouldn't answer that simple question.

Hats off to Alliebaba who did.

 

[PoliticalChic]

As has been noted on here, a federal appeals court has reversed a federal judge's opinion that a young woman named Angela Hildenbrand could not legally pray on the podium during her graduation ceremony.

Court Lifts Ban On Texas Graduation Prayer : NPR

On June 6th, Hildenbrand delivered her address and prayer:

Lord, I thank you so much for the blessing of this day. And I just thank you for the amazing group of people that you surrounded me with.

God, I thank you for the support of our whole entire community through this case hearing; and also for Erin (Leu)and all the people at the Liberty Institute; and my parents, who’ve helped get me through the last couple of days.

Lord, I just thank you so much for your presence in our lives through these 18 years. And I just praise you for your incredible faithfulness through all adversity and all joy.

God, I thank you for the men and women who have given their lives helping to give us, and protect, the freedoms that we have today. And I ask that you please keep your hand of guidance on all of them — past, present and future military.

God, I thank you just so much for the freedom to be here today. And most of all, I thank you for loving us first.

God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways. And I can’t wait to see where you’ll be leading each of us. I ask that you’ll ask us all to remember where we come from, and to know where we stand.

God, I thank you for the gift of your Son and for the forgiveness that surpasses all understanding. And most of all, I thank you for your great love for us, and for our great nation, where we are free.

And it’s in Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

Prayer Steals the Show at Texas Graduation | CitizenLink

(A video can also be found at the link).

I disagree, but respect the court's ruling, and I have to admire this young woman for fighting for something she felt was right.

However, now that this precedent has been set and the legality of the matter is not in dispute, would you accept a Muslim student calling their classmates to prayer at the podium of their graduation?

If not, how (in your opinion) is it different?

I started a separate thread on this after noticing that some members of the forum discussing the issue wouldn't answer that simple question.

Hats off to Alliebaba who did.

"God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways."

How can anyone object to a sentiment such as this?

 

[geauxtohell]

As has been noted on here, a federal appeals court has reversed a federal judge's opinion that a young woman named Angela Hildenbrand could not legally pray on the podium during her graduation ceremony.

Court Lifts Ban On Texas Graduation Prayer : NPR

On June 6th, Hildenbrand delivered her address and prayer:

Lord, I thank you so much for the blessing of this day. And I just thank you for the amazing group of people that you surrounded me with.

God, I thank you for the support of our whole entire community through this case hearing; and also for Erin (Leu)and all the people at the Liberty Institute; and my parents, who’ve helped get me through the last couple of days.

Lord, I just thank you so much for your presence in our lives through these 18 years. And I just praise you for your incredible faithfulness through all adversity and all joy.

God, I thank you for the men and women who have given their lives helping to give us, and protect, the freedoms that we have today. And I ask that you please keep your hand of guidance on all of them — past, present and future military.

God, I thank you just so much for the freedom to be here today. And most of all, I thank you for loving us first.

God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways. And I can’t wait to see where you’ll be leading each of us. I ask that you’ll ask us all to remember where we come from, and to know where we stand.

God, I thank you for the gift of your Son and for the forgiveness that surpasses all understanding. And most of all, I thank you for your great love for us, and for our great nation, where we are free.

And it’s in Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

Prayer Steals the Show at Texas Graduation | CitizenLink

(A video can also be found at the link).

I disagree, but respect the court's ruling, and I have to admire this young woman for fighting for something she felt was right.

However, now that this precedent has been set and the legality of the matter is not in dispute, would you accept a Muslim student calling their classmates to prayer at the podium of their graduation?

If not, how (in your opinion) is it different?

I started a separate thread on this after noticing that some members of the forum discussing the issue wouldn't answer that simple question.

Hats off to Alliebaba who did.

"God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways."

How can anyone object to a sentiment such as this?

I think people can object to it for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the underlying (nice) sentiments.

However, that is really not the question at hand.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I’ll take the time to read the ruling and perhaps post later if not considered off topic.

Otherwise, I’d have no problem with a Muslim praying in the context noted in the OP, provided no Establishment Clause violation occurs. Indeed, it could be argued a Free Exercise Clause violation is present if the state were to attempt to prevent Muslim prayer.

 

[PoliticalChic]

As has been noted on here, a federal appeals court has reversed a federal judge's opinion that a young woman named Angela Hildenbrand could not legally pray on the podium during her graduation ceremony.

Court Lifts Ban On Texas Graduation Prayer : NPR

On June 6th, Hildenbrand delivered her address and prayer:



Prayer Steals the Show at Texas Graduation | CitizenLink

(A video can also be found at the link).

I disagree, but respect the court's ruling, and I have to admire this young woman for fighting for something she felt was right.

However, now that this precedent has been set and the legality of the matter is not in dispute, would you accept a Muslim student calling their classmates to prayer at the podium of their graduation?

If not, how (in your opinion) is it different?

I started a separate thread on this after noticing that some members of the forum discussing the issue wouldn't answer that simple question.

Hats off to Alliebaba who did.

"God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways."

How can anyone object to a sentiment such as this?

I think people can object to it for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the underlying (nice) sentiments.

However, that is really not the question at hand.

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

 

[geauxtohell]

I’ll take the time to read the ruling and perhaps post later if not considered off topic.

Otherwise, I’d have no problem with a Muslim praying in the context noted in the OP, provided no Establishment Clause violation occurs. Indeed, it could be argued a Free Exercise Clause violation is present if the state were to attempt to prevent Muslim prayer.

I would think that would certainly be the case now. As I said, legal precedence has been set.

 

[geauxtohell]

"God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways."

How can anyone object to a sentiment such as this?

I think people can object to it for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the underlying (nice) sentiments.

However, that is really not the question at hand.

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

That still doesn't answer the question.

I also don't think it's prejudicial or bigoted for an athiest to object to someone leading a prayer at a public graduation ceremony.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

Incorrect on both counts;

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe (2000):

Does the Santa Fe Independent School District's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?

Yes. In a 6-3 opinion delivered by Justice John Paul Stevens, the Court held that the District's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause. The Court concluded that the football game prayers were public speech authorized by a government policy and taking place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events and that the District's policy involved both perceived and actual government endorsement of the delivery of prayer at important school events. Such speech is not properly characterized as "private," wrote Justice Stevens for the majority. In dissent, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, joined by Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, noted the "disturbing" tone of the Court's opinion that "bristle[d] with hostility to all things religious in public life."

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

If student-let prayers at football games are un-Constitutional, then prayers at graduation are as well.

The Schultzes lawsuit was backed by the Washington-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Ayesha Khan, an attorney for the organization, said the group was "deeply" disappointed but would continue with the lawsuit to try to rid the school of promoting religion in its ceremonies.

This issue is yet to be settled.

 

[oldsalt]

As has been noted on here, a federal appeals court has reversed a federal judge's opinion that a young woman named Angela Hildenbrand could not legally pray on the podium during her graduation ceremony.

Court Lifts Ban On Texas Graduation Prayer : NPR

On June 6th, Hildenbrand delivered her address and prayer:

Lord, I thank you so much for the blessing of this day. And I just thank you for the amazing group of people that you surrounded me with.

God, I thank you for the support of our whole entire community through this case hearing; and also for Erin (Leu)and all the people at the Liberty Institute; and my parents, who’ve helped get me through the last couple of days.

Lord, I just thank you so much for your presence in our lives through these 18 years. And I just praise you for your incredible faithfulness through all adversity and all joy.

God, I thank you for the men and women who have given their lives helping to give us, and protect, the freedoms that we have today. And I ask that you please keep your hand of guidance on all of them — past, present and future military.

God, I thank you just so much for the freedom to be here today. And most of all, I thank you for loving us first.

God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways. And I can’t wait to see where you’ll be leading each of us. I ask that you’ll ask us all to remember where we come from, and to know where we stand.

God, I thank you for the gift of your Son and for the forgiveness that surpasses all understanding. And most of all, I thank you for your great love for us, and for our great nation, where we are free.

And it’s in Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.

Prayer Steals the Show at Texas Graduation | CitizenLink

(A video can also be found at the link).

I disagree, but respect the court's ruling, and I have to admire this young woman for fighting for something she felt was right.

However, now that this precedent has been set and the legality of the matter is not in dispute, would you accept a Muslim student calling their classmates to prayer at the podium of their graduation?

If not, how (in your opinion) is it different?

I started a separate thread on this after noticing that some members of the forum discussing the issue wouldn't answer that simple question.

Hats off to Alliebaba who did.

"God, I ask that you please keep each of us safe and well, as we all go our separate ways."

How can anyone object to a sentiment such as this?

It's not Allah.

 

[oldsalt]

Simple solution, don't pray when she is. Next.

 

[daveman]

Simple solution, don't pray when she is. Next.

Christa and Danny Schultz, who said watching their son receive a diploma this weekend would amount to forced religious participation​

http://fellowshipofminds.wordpress.com/2011/06/02/irreparable-harm/

The judge declared that the Schultz family and their son would “suffer irreparable harm” if anyone prayed at the ceremony.​

I'm curious what the Schultzes believe happens when someone hears the word "god". Do they think the person hearing it is automatically converted?

Do they accept cash? Cash has the word "god" on it.

Do they get offended when their friends say, "God damn it!"?

What goes on in their minds? Does ANYthing go on in their minds?

 

[oldsalt]

Simple solution, don't pray when she is. Next.

Christa and Danny Schultz, who said watching their son receive a diploma this weekend would amount to forced religious participation​

I'm curious what the Schultzes believe happens when someone hears the word "god". Do they think the person hearing it is automatically converted?

Do they accept cash? Cash has the word "god" on it.

Do they get offended when their friends say, "God damn it!"?

What goes on in their minds? Does ANYthing go on in their minds?

Priceless Dave. for everything else, there's Mastercard.

 

[daveman]

Simple solution, don't pray when she is. Next.

Christa and Danny Schultz, who said watching their son receive a diploma this weekend would amount to forced religious participation​

I'm curious what the Schultzes believe happens when someone hears the word "god". Do they think the person hearing it is automatically converted?

Do they accept cash? Cash has the word "god" on it.

Do they get offended when their friends say, "God damn it!"?

What goes on in their minds? Does ANYthing go on in their minds?

Priceless Dave. for everything else, there's Mastercard.

*tips hat*

 

[geauxtohell]

For those interested, here is the ruling:

http://www.mvisd.com/Order GRANTING Defs Mtn to Dissolve.pdf

 

[PoliticalChic]

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

Incorrect on both counts;

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe (2000):

Does the Santa Fe Independent School District's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment?

Yes. In a 6-3 opinion delivered by Justice John Paul Stevens, the Court held that the District's policy permitting student-led, student-initiated prayer at football games violates the Establishment Clause. The Court concluded that the football game prayers were public speech authorized by a government policy and taking place on government property at government-sponsored school-related events and that the District's policy involved both perceived and actual government endorsement of the delivery of prayer at important school events. Such speech is not properly characterized as "private," wrote Justice Stevens for the majority. In dissent, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, joined by Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, noted the "disturbing" tone of the Court's opinion that "bristle[d] with hostility to all things religious in public life."

Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

If student-let prayers at football games are un-Constitutional, then prayers at graduation are as well.

The Schultzes lawsuit was backed by the Washington-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Ayesha Khan, an attorney for the organization, said the group was "deeply" disappointed but would continue with the lawsuit to try to rid the school of promoting religion in its ceremonies.

This issue is yet to be settled.

]

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

[Incorrect on both counts;]


Only incorrect if one resticts their thinking to the straight-jacket imposed by progressive inspiration.

You see, here- as you do repeatedly, you wander down the wrong path by simply mouthing the mutterings of prior- equally incorrect- court rulings.

“The Constitution, including particularly the First Amendment, embodies the simple, just idea that each of us should be free to exercise his or her religious views without expecting that the government will endorse or promote those views and without fearing that the government will endorse or promote the religious views of others.” (from an email I received)

Your views are understandable if you studied in law school in the last hundred years, and suffered under the delusions of Roscoe Pound and Christopher Columbus Langdell...and have, as yet, been unable to break free.

It is the Constitution...born on this day, in 1788, when New Hampshire became the 9th state to ratify...that is, and should remain, the supreme law of the land.

One is never too old....

1. . Law is taught as precedent, not original intent.Roscoe Pound and others changed the view of the law. “Pound fought the notion that an unchanging and inflexible Natural Law formed the basis for the Common Law. He did believe that some constant principles existed in the common law, particularly ones dealing with methods, to which he gave the name "taught legal tradition." Pound firmly believed that the implementation of the principles of the taught legal tradition by wise common-law judges resulted in substantive change, which reflected changes in society. As the interpreters of the common law, judges had a special duty to consider the practical effects of their decisions and to strive to ensure that judging facilitated rather than hindered societal growth.” Roscoe Pound legal definition of Roscoe Pound. Roscoe Pound synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

2. Pound sought to adjust principles and doctrines of law to the realities of the human condition…. wanted to extract wisdom from German social sicence to apply to American law.: law must leave "conceptions" and open itself up to social realities of the modern world.”… the backwardness of law in meeting social ends,…” roscoe pound and jurisprudence and 1903 and nebraska and harvard law school


3. He [Pound] was perhaps the chief U.S. advocate of sociological jurisprudence, which holds that statutes and court decisions are affected by social conditions; his ideas apparently influenced the New Deal programs of Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt. Roscoe Pound: Biography from Answers.com


4. Christopher Columbus Langdell (May 22, 1826 - July 6, 1906), American jurist, was born in the town of New Boston, New Hampshire, of English and Scots-Irish ancestry.
Langdell's core legacy is his influence on the teaching of law. Before Langdell's tenure, the study of law was a technical pursuit. Students were told what the law is. However, at Harvard Langdell applied the principles of pragmatism to the study of law. Now, as a result of this innovation, lawyers are taught the law through a dialectical process of inference called the case method. The case method has been the primary method of pedagogy at American law schools ever since. The case method has since been adopted and improved upon by schools in other disciplines, such as business, public policy, and education. Students such as Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. would ensure that Langdell's innovation would not go unnoticed. Christopher Columbus Langdell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now, imagine...before Pound and Langdell, and the Progressive influence...judges actually read the Constitution, and understood the clear message of '...free exercise thereof..."

When I read your posts, I have the image of your arms crossed on your chest, eyes closed, chin up...evincing an "This is what I was taught, it is correct, so there!"

Of course, it remains to be seen whether or not you are capable of refining thinking that is so imbedded....

 

[martybegan]

I think people can object to it for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with the underlying (nice) sentiments.

However, that is really not the question at hand.

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

That still doesn't answer the question.

I also don't think it's prejudicial or bigoted for an athiest to object to someone leading a prayer at a public graduation ceremony.

I have to assume this was the valordictorian or the salutatorian giving the speech.

that poses the question that if the valordictorian was an atheist, and wanted to talk about the evils of religion, or make statements refuting religon, would you find that acceptable?

Edit: She was the valordictorian: So how is her mentioning God somehow a state sanctioned recognition of religion?

 

[geauxtohell]

Simple solution, don't pray when she is. Next.

Christa and Danny Schultz, who said watching their son receive a diploma this weekend would amount to forced religious participation​

“Irreparable Harm” | Fellowship of the Minds

The judge declared that the Schultz family and their son would “suffer irreparable harm” if anyone prayed at the ceremony.​

I'm curious what the Schultzes believe happens when someone hears the word "god". Do they think the person hearing it is automatically converted?

Do they accept cash? Cash has the word "god" on it.

Do they get offended when their friends say, "God damn it!"?

What goes on in their minds? Does ANYthing go on in their minds?

Again, not the point. The Schultz's were entitled to their day in court, just as this young women was. Both had their say, the Schultz's lost.

The prayer was delivered and now it is after the fact.

The issue now is the possible ramifications of this ruling.

 

[geauxtohell]

Since there is no Constitutional basis for any objection, so you concerns must be based on prejudice and bigoty.

That still doesn't answer the question.

I also don't think it's prejudicial or bigoted for an athiest to object to someone leading a prayer at a public graduation ceremony.

I have to assume this was the valordictorian or the salutatorian giving the speech.

that poses the question that if the valordictorian was an atheist, and wanted to talk about the evils of religion, or make statements refuting religon, would you find that acceptable?

Edit: She was the valordictorian: So how is her mentioning God somehow a state sanctioned recognition of religion?

First, she didn't mention God. She led the assembly in Prayer. I feel that was an endorsement of religion. The Federal Judge agreed, the 5th Federal Court of Appeals disagreed.

Though, it wasn't a full hearing and simply a ruling on the federal judges ban. At any rate, my opinion is just that. Obviously the law disagrees.

I wouldn't find an athiest talking about the evils of God to be acceptable or appropriate. I think you could use the establishment clause to argue against that as well. However, it does make an interesting question as to if that would be correct in light of this ruling.

 

[martybegan]

That still doesn't answer the question.

I also don't think it's prejudicial or bigoted for an athiest to object to someone leading a prayer at a public graduation ceremony.

I have to assume this was the valordictorian or the salutatorian giving the speech.

that poses the question that if the valordictorian was an atheist, and wanted to talk about the evils of religion, or make statements refuting religon, would you find that acceptable?

Edit: She was the valordictorian: So how is her mentioning God somehow a state sanctioned recognition of religion?

First, she didn't mention God. She led the assembly in Prayer. I feel that was an endorsement of religion. The Federal Judge agreed, the 5th Federal Court of Appeals disagreed.

Though, it wasn't a full hearing and simply a ruling on the federal judges ban. At any rate, my opinion is just that. Obviously the law disagrees.

I wouldn't find an athiest talking about the evils of God to be acceptable or appropriate. I think you could use the establishment clause to argue against that as well. However, it does make an interesting question as to if that would be correct in light of this ruling.

She prayed as part of her valerdictorian speech, if people wanted to follow along it is up to the audiance.

This is not a government representative or agent trying to make a religous speech, it is a private citizen given a podium at a public event.

While the schultz's had the right to sue, it still makes them asshats trying to impose thier morality on someone who earned the right to speak thier mind at the event.

 

[Ravi]

I think if you are going to allow a Christian prayer to be offered then you must allow any and all other prayers, from any religion.

Including Satanism.