Grade Advancement is Overrated

[Hobbit]

Ok, right now, everybody spends exactly 13 years in school, unless they're stupid and live in a district that allows you to fail a grade. You start in Kindergarten and work your way up to and through high school one year at a time, and until high school, everyone advances at the same rate, learning addition and subtraction in the first grade, cursive in either the third or fouth, etc., etc. This system sucks donkey balls. It's estimated that while certain brain developments are required for deeper language learning, meaning English can stay where it is, many children are capable of learning multivariable calculus before puberty and it is, in fact, easier for children to learn foreign languages the younger they are. So, if these 'genius children' are capable of this, why don't we hear about them? Well, chances are, you do, but in a bad way. These kids account for over half the kids with disciplinary problems in elementary school, since they've already passed what's being taught and are incredibly bored with it, but have to wait for the slower kids to catch up. The whole system is retarded, which is why I propose we change it to the following, which I wish we'd had when I was a kid.

All kids go through Kindergarten to learn writing basics and fun little things like tying your shoes. At the end of the year, they're given a placement test, and all children are placed in a class that fits their placement level. They take another test at the end of every year. A class would consist of all those of the same achievement level, regardless of age. Strangely enough, mixed classes like this behave better, for reasons I am unsure of. Those who advance quickly will learn highly advanced math and possibly multiple foreign languages, and to accomadate those who advance differently in each subject, they'll have a seperate class for each, meaning some children may be in remedial English and advanced physics at the same time. Once they have placed well enough in their poorest subject on the test, they may advance to high school, or, if the parents think they're a little young, they may stay at the elementary level a little longer, provided they haven't "capped out" any one subject (but they could then opt to take that subject at high school while everything else is at the elementary). Once in high school, you choose a vocational or college prep track, with requirements for graduation as they are now.

Now, this system may sound a bit crazy, but that's because the grade advancement system has been the only one for decades. However, if this system was adopted, children could truly advance as fast as they could in any subject. It wouldn't be uncommon for 12 year olds to be doing triple integration, and stories of 16 year olds going to college wouldn't be so rare and exotic.

Final credit, however, must be given to my mom, who came up with most of this while we were talking one day.

 

[Nienna]

I have actually heard of this. I think it's a great idea.

 

[liberalogic]

There's a reason why age and grade level have been proportional so long...because children need to adapt to the world and mature...Most 12-16 year olds, no matter how smart, might not fit in in college. You're forgetting the social context of this as well...you can't thrust immature kids into things they're not ready for...and true some pre-pubescent kids can do calculus, but I worked with kids at a learning center for over two years (and it was one where kids were both working at and above grade level) and I never saw a 12 year old doing calculus...there are very few that can.

 

[Annie]

There's a reason why age and grade level have been proportional so long...because children need to adapt to the world and mature...Most 12-16 year olds, no matter how smart, might not fit in in college. You're forgetting the social context of this as well...you can't thrust immature kids into things they're not ready for...and true some pre-pubescent kids can do calculus, but I worked with kids at a learning center for over two years (and it was one where kids were both working at and above grade level) and I never saw a 12 year old doing calculus...there are very few that can.

Nonsense, if there are other kids being promoted they will be fine. Works for gifted, works for special ed. Only kids that are held back are the 'average' and it's just wrong.

 

[Nienna]

Nonsense, if there are other kids being promoted they will be fine. Works for gifted, works for special ed. Only kids that are held back are the 'average' and it's just wrong.

So, you think that the system Hobbit has proposed will work against the "average" achiever?

 

[liberalogic]

You really think an advanced 12 year old is ready for college life? Even if they are being promoted with some of their peers, how many 12 year olds are ready for college? I'd venture to say a select few. Quite frankly, for those who support the forms of morality that most conservatives favor, it would be wrong to thrust someone at such a young age into this environment.

 

[Nienna]

You really think an advanced 12 year old is ready for college life? Even if they are being promoted with some of their peers, how many 12 year olds are ready for college? I'd venture to say a select few. Quite frankly, for those who support the forms of morality that most conservatives favor, it would be wrong to thrust someone at such a young age into this environment.

I probably wouldn't put my kids in college until they were at least 16. But, what would be wrong with, say, allowing kids to observe in career fields during that 4-year stretch? I know, at age 17 when I started college, I had absolutely no idea what career I wanted to pursue. It would have been nice to have had that time to check out the actual job experience.

 

[Abbey Normal]

I agree that we may need to rethink the usual process for schooling, but I tend to focus on it from the other side. There are certain kids who are never going to handle college, are never going to enjoy literature or algebra, etc. I believe those kids should be removed from the regular public school by 7th grade and sent to a trade school, where the focus is on learning a non-academic trade for their future livelihood.

Regardless of NCLB and what some people want to believe, academia isn't for everyone. Instead of torturing those kids who will never really get it with endless tests and standardized exams, and dumbing down the rest of the class in the process, let them start early learning a trade which will support them the rest of their lives. 7th grade makes sense to me as a cut-off. It lets them have several years in a traditional school to learn the basics of Math, English, History, etc., but lets them switch over before it gets too tough, and before their frustration with school makes them a disruption for everyone.

 

[Annie]

So, you think that the system Hobbit has proposed will work against the "average" achiever?

No, quite the contrary. I think the 'gifted/high achievers' should be segregated. Same with the low achievers/inclusion(for the most part).

The great 'middle' should be grouped and differentiated. The 'gifted' leave the middle feeling lost, while the lower achieving take all the teacher's time.

 

[Annie]

I agree that we may need to rethink the usual process for schooling, but I tend to focus on it from the other side. There are certain kids who are never going to handle college, are never going to enjoy literature or algebra, etc. I believe those kids should be removed from the regular public school by 7th grade and sent to a trade school, where the focus is on learning a non-academic trade for their future livelihood.

Regardless of NCLB and what some people want to believe, academia isn't for everyone. Instead of torturing those kids who will never really get it with endless tests and standardized exams, and dumbing down the rest of the class in the process, let them start early learning a trade which will support them the rest of their lives. 7th grade makes sense to me as a cut-off. It lets them have several years in a traditional school to learn the basics of Math, English, History, etc., but lets them switch over before it gets too tough, and before their frustration with school makes them a disruption for everyone.

Whoa, here we part ways. There are so many 'gifted' but unidentified kids in middle school, (6th-9th), that for a host of reasons may be 'underachieving.' I'm against putting them in 'gifted' when they do not do the minimums expected in a regular classroom, but think they need the time and attention that may well turn them into the adults they are capable of being-including lawyers, and doctors and perhaps even accountants. The right teachers/mentors/coaches can make a HUGE difference in the life of a 9th-12th grader. Unlike the Euros, I would not write them off, by handing them off to shop/auto/business courses.

 

[Nienna]

Whoa, here we part ways. There are so many 'gifted' but unidentified kids in middle school, (6th-9th), that for a host of reasons may be 'underachieving.' I'm against putting them in 'gifted' when they do not do the minimums expected in a regular classroom, but think they need the time and attention that may well turn them into the adults they are capable of being-including lawyers, and doctors and perhaps even accountants. The right teachers/mentors/coaches can make a HUGE difference in the life of a 9th-12th grader. Unlike the Euros, I would not write them off, by handing them off to shop/auto/business courses.

Well, said, Kathianne. Maturing is not only a mental process, but also an extremely emotional one. There are many, many emotional factors/experiences which may keep a gifted child from ever being identified.

 

[Annie]

Well, said, Kathianne. Maturing is not only a mental process, but also an extremely emotional one. There are many, many emotional factors/experiences which may keep a gifted child from ever being identified.

I would like to remind everyone that middle school kids are aged 11-14 in most districts. Guess when most parents divorce? Guess when most kids start eating disorders? Guess when most kids hit a wall with learning disabilities, regardless of IQ?

 

[Superfluous Man]

Most of today's exalted groves of academe are fit places for neither man nor beast, let alone a twelve year old. And what is so normal about 20, 30 or even 40 young children - all the same age - packed into a classroom? That is an abnormal situation and gives rise to all manner of discontent. My father in law graduated from MIT at 18 years of age, very socially adept, thank you very much, and he went to grade school in a single room with children of all ages before that. A HUGE portion of what's wrong with "education" in America consists of: 1. "Teacher" colleges. 2. Teacher unions 3. Truancy laws, and 4. Liberal crackpot ideas like "enhancing self-esteem." They say things like, "Oh! Aunt Phylis sounds so cultured when she speaks. You should learn to speak like her and you will be cultured too." If seven seals can play Lady of Spain on seven tuned horns, does that make them musicians?

Want to see a true Renaissance in America? Do this:

1. Sell ALL publicly owned schools at auction.
2. Do not allow government to address the subject of education at all, on any level, for any reason, EVER. (No mandates, truancy laws, etc. etc.)
3. Allow NO TAX MONEY to be spent on education, EVER.

 

[Hobbit]

Most of today's exalted groves of academe are fit places for neither man nor beast, let alone a twelve year old. And what is so normal about 20, 30 or even 40 young children - all the same age - packed into a classroom? That is an abnormal situation and gives rise to all manner of discontent. My father in law graduated from MIT at 18 years of age, very socially adept, thank you very much, and he went to grade school in a single room with children of all ages before that. A HUGE portion of what's wrong with "education" in America consists of: 1. "Teacher" colleges. 2. Teacher unions 3. Truancy laws, and 4. Liberal crackpot ideas like "enhancing self-esteem." They say things like, "Oh! Aunt Phylis sounds so cultured when she speaks. You should learn to speak like her and you will be cultured too." If seven seals can play Lady of Spain on seven tuned horns, does that make them musicians?

Want to see a true Renaissance in America? Do this:

1. Sell ALL publicly owned schools at auction.
2. Do not allow government to address the subject of education at all, on any level, for any reason, EVER. (No mandates, truancy laws, etc. etc.)
3. Allow NO TAX MONEY to be spent on education, EVER.

A fantastic post, but I disagree with the third point. One of the great things about America is that EVERYBODY has the chance to succeed, regardless of income level. Therefore, I think tax money should be spent subsidizing education, but it should be used to supply full and partial tuition scholarships based on need, and nothing more. The government has truly screwed up the school system, and if we reform it, I want the government to have NO hand in shaping it.

As for number two, I'm a little iffy. I think everyone should go to school. However, I think it's harmful to the other students when those who truly don't want to go are there and their parents aren't supportive.

 

[Hobbit]

I probably wouldn't put my kids in college until they were at least 16. But, what would be wrong with, say, allowing kids to observe in career fields during that 4-year stretch? I know, at age 17 when I started college, I had absolutely no idea what career I wanted to pursue. It would have been nice to have had that time to check out the actual job experience.

Excellent idea! I got to see a few career choices first hand when I was in high school, and it helped A LOT.

 

[Hobbit]

One more thing I think needs to be added, uniforms. Children are typically hostile to the idea at first, since they think of uniforms as 'stuffy,' but what surprises me are the parents. If kids had uniforms, most clothing budgets would come down. Since it's required for school, they can be written off on your taxes and probably subsidized for the very poor. They ensure that every child is appropriately dressed, as there is no vague dress code, just the uniform. They also eliminate much of the ridicule lower income students get because their clothes aren't designer brands.

However, the best case for uniforms is the behavioral aspects. Studies have shown, as if it wasn't already apparant, that when people of any age realize that they are dressed in nice clothes, an almost instinctive link between clothes and behavior causes them to be better behaved, since nice clothes are associated with formal events, and formal events mean, "Best behavior or you're dead meat!" I know that I was a hyper kid, but if you dressed me in a coat and tie, I would sit perfectly still through an entire 3 hour wedding.

 

[Annie]

One more thing I think needs to be added, uniforms. Children are typically hostile to the idea at first, since they think of uniforms as 'stuffy,' but what surprises me are the parents. If kids had uniforms, most clothing budgets would come down. Since it's required for school, they can be written off on your taxes and probably subsidized for the very poor. They ensure that every child is appropriately dressed, as there is no vague dress code, just the uniform. They also eliminate much of the ridicule lower income students get because their clothes aren't designer brands.

However, the best case for uniforms is the behavioral aspects. Studies have shown, as if it wasn't already apparant, that when people of any age realize that they are dressed in nice clothes, an almost instinctive link between clothes and behavior causes them to be better behaved, since nice clothes are associated with formal events, and formal events mean, "Best behavior or you're dead meat!" I know that I was a hyper kid, but if you dressed me in a coat and tie, I would sit perfectly still through an entire 3 hour wedding.

Well I wouldn't go for a 3 hour mark, but I will say I'm all for uniforms in school, just wish they would do the same for instructors.

I think in the primary level it should be: 'dependent on weather': shorts, slacks, skirts, splitskirts and polos/blouses/vests/sweaters.

In middle school: shirts/blouses/ties/skirts/slacks/blazers

In high school: same as middle school.

Boys from middle school and above, should be in shirt and tie. Girls in skirt/pants/skort/and vest/swerater/blazer with blouse. For all the reasons Hobbit said.

For teachers: blouse/shirt/tie/blazer/pants.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Whoa, here we part ways. There are so many 'gifted' but unidentified kids in middle school, (6th-9th), that for a host of reasons may be 'underachieving.' I'm against putting them in 'gifted' when they do not do the minimums expected in a regular classroom, but think they need the time and attention that may well turn them into the adults they are capable of being-including lawyers, and doctors and perhaps even accountants. The right teachers/mentors/coaches can make a HUGE difference in the life of a 9th-12th grader. Unlike the Euros, I would not write them off, by handing them off to shop/auto/business courses.

Then we definitely need to do a better job of identifying such children. I'm all for that. And if 7th grade isn't the best year for transferring kids,then I have no problem with someone picking a better one. But that doesn't mean the concept isn't sound. And a good mentor or coach can make an equally huge difference in the life of a child who wants to learn a trade, no?

I don't think there is anything inherently special about becoming a lawyer or a doctor, and likewise there isn't anything inherently "less than" about becoming an auto mechanic, carpenter, etc. In fact, at least where I come from, a good mechanic is harder to find than a talented lawyer or doctor.

We need to stop trying to force everyone into the academic higher-education mold. God made us all with different strengths and abilities, and there should be no shame in that.

 

[Annie]

Then we definitely need to do a better job of identifying such children. I'm all for that. And if 7th grade isn't the best year for transferring kids,then I have no problem with someone picking a better one. But that doesn't mean the concept isn't sound. And a good mentor or coach can make an equally huge difference in the life of a child who wants to learn a trade, no?

I don't think there is anything inherently special about becoming a lawyer or a doctor, and likewise there isn't anything inherently "less than" about becoming an auto mechanic, carpenter, etc. In fact, at least where I come from, a good mechanic is harder to find than a talented lawyer or doctor.

We need to stop trying to force everyone into the academic higher-education mold. God made us all with different strengths and abilities, and there should be no shame in that.

I guess I'm prejudiced. I was all A's in jr. high. Because of misplacement in high school, my frosh year was C in math, B in science and A's in all others. Convinced me, 'genius in my own mind' that the school sucked. Ditched classes in soph/jr years, showing up for tests only. Then my mom found out. Better attendance sr year.

I have hope for those that are not off the dime in 8th grade. Sorry Abbey.

 

[Abbey Normal]

I guess I'm prejudiced. I was all A's in jr. high. Because of misplacement in high school, my frosh year was C in math, B in science and A's in all others. Convinced me, 'genius in my own mind' that the school sucked. Ditched classes in soph/jr years, showing up for tests only. Then my mom found out. Better attendance sr year.

I have hope for those that are not off the dime in 8th grade. Sorry Abbey.

Yeah, well, I should probably defer to your first-hand knowledge on the subject as a teacher.