Govt Subsidies of Religion

[Avatar4321]

What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand?

If, only...Av....


Churches and other nonprofits are strictly prohibited from engaging in political campaigning. This prohibition stems from the requirements of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (“Code”).
Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Churches and Political Lobbying Activities - Freedom From Religion Foundation

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

 

[Katzndogz]

The answer to farm subsidies is to stop them and let farmers grow whatever they want to grow. The largest beneficiaries of farm suhsidies are from the entertainment industry. They don't actually get money to have non productive farms. They use the subsidy to offset massive profits from their ordinary income. That's why the actors and singers don't care if taxes are raised but they did not want those loopholes closed. No wonder Hollywood fought so hard against Mitt Romney. He would have put the brakes on the gravy train.

The next time some snazzy singer says that the small business owner is the evil rich out to get you, if you buy that crap it is you who needs a diaper change.

 

[konradv]

I want to know how Scientology keeps their religious exemption, when they're basically selling their services but calling them "donations". I can go to a regular church and not give, but I won't be thrown out. Try doing that in Scientology. Either you pay or you work on staff for about 50 cents an hour. It's all a scam to avoid taxes and control people's minds so that they'll empty their wallets willingly.

 

[pinqy]

What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand?

If, only...Av....


Churches and other nonprofits are strictly prohibited from engaging in political campaigning. This prohibition stems from the requirements of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (“Code”).
Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Churches and Political Lobbying Activities - Freedom From Religion Foundation

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

only if you think that churches should be exempt from all laws or that tax exemptions are some kind of right.

Otherwise, there' s no Constitutional issue.The law applies generally and not just churcheschurches.

 

[konradv]

What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand?

If, only...Av....


Churches and other nonprofits are strictly prohibited from engaging in political campaigning. This prohibition stems from the requirements of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (“Code”).
Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Churches and Political Lobbying Activities - Freedom From Religion Foundation

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

We have a court that decides issues like that and apparently they're saying you're wrong.

 

[PoliticalChic]

If, only...Av....


Churches and other nonprofits are strictly prohibited from engaging in political campaigning. This prohibition stems from the requirements of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (“Code”).
Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Churches and Political Lobbying Activities - Freedom From Religion Foundation

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

only if you think that churches should be exempt from all laws or that tax exemptions are some kind of right.

Otherwise, there' s no Constitutional issue.The law applies generally and not just churcheschurches.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
First Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PoliticalChic]

If, only...Av....


Churches and other nonprofits are strictly prohibited from engaging in political campaigning. This prohibition stems from the requirements of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (“Code”).
Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Churches and Political Lobbying Activities - Freedom From Religion Foundation

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

We have a court that decides issues like that and apparently they're saying you're wrong.

I don't know that such has been brought to the court....but if so, obviously the Constitution says they would be wrong.
If the Constitution were still in effect....

 

[AmyNation]

Charities are tax exempt, churches should only be tax exempt if they do a certain percentage of charitable work, otherwise they should be taxed like everyone else.

Oh, and while I'm on a rant, wtf are unions tax exempt? 0.o

 

[pinqy]

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

only if you think that churches should be exempt from all laws or that tax exemptions are some kind of right.

Otherwise, there' s no Constitutional issue.The law applies generally and not just churcheschurches.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
First Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I am quite aware of the 1st amendment. It doesn't mean that churches are outside the law. It means that laws cannot specifically aid or oppose religion. A law granting tax exemptions only to churches or levying taxes only on churches would be unconstitutional. A generally applicable law that incidentally affects a church is constitutional,

 

[Quantum Windbag]

When people talk about corporate welfare, what they really mean is that the government is giving these entities so many tax perks it amounts to free money (unless we are talking about agribusiness and the military industrial complex). So, we as a country have an inate understanding that government subsidizes certain industries or behaviours through the tax code.

People get to deduct contributions to churches. Churches pay no tax, and clergy recieve massive tax perks. This is an indirect way for government to establish religion in this country.

Imagine for a second how successful many churches would be if they actually had to pay tax, or had to audit their books. I don't think anyone would argue that churches would suffer from refusing a religous contribution deduction, let alone the freebies given to clergy and churches.

If an entity cannot continue without a given government policy, it seems to reason that the government policy is enabling its existence. Isn't this the entire thing the establishment clause was designed to prevent?

Tax deductions are not subsidies.

 

[PoliticalChic]

only if you think that churches should be exempt from all laws or that tax exemptions are some kind of right.

Otherwise, there' s no Constitutional issue.The law applies generally and not just churcheschurches.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
First Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I am quite aware of the 1st amendment. It doesn't mean that churches are outside the law. It means that laws cannot specifically aid or oppose religion. A law granting tax exemptions only to churches or levying taxes only on churches would be unconstitutional. A generally applicable law that incidentally affects a church is constitutional,

So, your understanding of the first amendment is 'prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, as taxation would do, if they preach things we aren't copacetic with,....'

And the specific speech, such as don't vote for so-and-so 'cause he's a rapist...or killed a young lady...' as in ' abridging the freedom of speech'.....


The guidance provided by the Constitution is not clear enough for you?


Preaching Isaiah 48:22 might be considered the free exercise of one's religion.....


...or John 14:15?


Romans 16:17 says to name names.....

But the IRS says not to?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Charities are tax exempt, churches should only be tax exempt if they do a certain percentage of charitable work, otherwise they should be taxed like everyone else.

Oh, and while I'm on a rant, wtf are unions tax exempt? 0.o

Churches are tax exempt because they are non profits corporations. come to think of it, charities are tax exempt because they are non profit corporations, as are unions.

For the idiots here, non profit is defined as not allowing shareholders/owners to use profits for themselves, not as not making a profit. Any business that always looses money will eventually collapse.

 

[AmyNation]

I'm aware they are all "non-profit", it doesn't change my stance.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm aware they are all "non-profit", it doesn't change my stance.

The only stance you have is ignorance, it is impossible to tax an entity that does not make a profit.

 

[konradv]

Personally I haven't any interest one way or the other, but some do. See:

home

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

"Whether you interpret that statement as an originalist, papist, feminist, or any other -ist, exempting religious organizations from paying taxes is a clear case of our government "respecting an establishment of religion," precisely what the framers intended to prohibit.

This is not to suggest that you abandon your church or your faith. For one thing, any religious organization that lives up to its commitments to its congregation and community would have nothing to fear from filing a tax return, just like every other non-profit. For another, when these institutions pay taxes like every other non-profit, each citizen's tax burden is significantly lessened and consequently he or she may better endow a worthy institution with individual support."

If the government isn't corrupt, it has absolutely no fear of what any Church might say over the pulpit.

Unless the church is corrupt. It's a two way street, if churches don't want government to interfere, then they shouldn't interfere in government.

 

[AmyNation]

I'm aware they are all "non-profit", it doesn't change my stance.

The only stance you have is ignorance, it is impossible to tax an entity that does not make a profit.

Your position is, they don't make money? Really?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm aware they are all "non-profit", it doesn't change my stance.

The only stance you have is ignorance, it is impossible to tax an entity that does not make a profit.

Your position is, they don't make money? Really?

My stance is they do not make a profit because revenue is plowed back into the business and counts as expenses, basic accounting.

 

[konradv]

And that statute/regulation is quite unconstitutional.

We have a court that decides issues like that and apparently they're saying you're wrong.

I don't know that such has been brought to the court....but if so, obviously the Constitution says they would be wrong.
If the Constitution were still in effect....

I doubt you're the only one that thinks that way, so I would expect that someone has and that they lost. If something is a blatantly unconstitutional as you claim, someone somewhere will challenge it. The fact that it stands, proves you're wrong in your contention.

 

[PaulS1950]

You don't have to file 501c3 papers to be a tax exempt religion. As a matter of fact, if you do file to be a tax exempt religious corporation you are under more obligations of auditing and taxation than if you do not. Any church of any religion is by definition a tax exempt entity. The church can't make political statements but the individual person can. i.e. The Pope cannot tell people in the Catholic churches that as a matter of faith they must vote for (so-n-so) or the Catholic church will lose it's "church status" in the USA. In order to start a church (or a religion) in the USA all you need is a person to run it (pastor, minister etc.), a congregation (about twenty people as long as it grows (but it can fluctuate), a program that teaches your doctrine or canon to new members, and a routine of worship that focuses on Deity in one form or another. If you want to open a bank account for your new church all you need to do is fill out form #SS-4 to get an EIN (employer Identification number).
The IRS has a pamphlet "Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Oganizations" that you can download to get all the info without errors or some of the details that I left out.
Only the Church's money is exempt - the pastor has to pay income tax just as any employee does. The pastor's residence is considered as income so you can't just have the church pay all your bills and think it will be fine - it doesn't work that way. Money that is raised through the church cannot be spent on things other than church related services and if it is paid to members or clergy it is taxable. The chuch can own property but if it is rented out then the income is taxable because it is not raised in the "normal course of church business". It isn't a really good deal for any members or clergy because there is little benifit to them.

 

[pinqy]

You don't have to file 501c3 papers to be a tax exempt religion. As a matter of fact, if you do file to be a tax exempt religious corporation you are under more obligations of auditing and taxation than if you do not. Any church of any religion is by definition a tax exempt entity. .

Sort of. The church still has to meet the requirements of a 501(c)(3) organization even though they don't necessarily have to file.