Govt Subsidies of Religion

[Reuben]

When people talk about corporate welfare, what they really mean is that the government is giving these entities so many tax perks it amounts to free money (unless we are talking about agribusiness and the military industrial complex). So, we as a country have an inate understanding that government subsidizes certain industries or behaviours through the tax code.

People get to deduct contributions to churches. Churches pay no tax, and clergy recieve massive tax perks. This is an indirect way for government to establish religion in this country.

Imagine for a second how successful many churches would be if they actually had to pay tax, or had to audit their books. I don't think anyone would argue that churches would suffer from refusing a religous contribution deduction, let alone the freebies given to clergy and churches.

If an entity cannot continue without a given government policy, it seems to reason that the government policy is enabling its existence. Isn't this the entire thing the establishment clause was designed to prevent?

 

[Mr. H.]

I think you have it backwards. We are the ones enabling government.

 

[Reuben]

I think you have it backwards. We are the ones enabling government.

Religion enables the government? That seems a little far fetched unless you are living in Iran.

 

[Mr. H.]

I think you have it backwards. We are the ones enabling government.

Religion enables the government? That seems a little far fetched unless you are living in Iran.

At the moment, I'm living in a bottle of Jim Beam.

You reference much more than religion here.

The government doesn't "give tax perks". Under certain circumstances, it just takes less of what isn't theirs in the first place.

And exactly why do you mention agriculture?

Finally, I think it was more an instance of Religion establishing government rather than the other way around. In the early days anyway.

 

[Mr. H.]

1 hour and 15 minutes.

 

[Avatar4321]

What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand?

 

[Reuben]

I think you have it backwards. We are the ones enabling government.

Religion enables the government? That seems a little far fetched unless you are living in Iran.

At the moment, I'm living in a bottle of Jim Beam.

You reference much more than religion here.

The government doesn't "give tax perks". Under certain circumstances, it just takes less of what isn't theirs in the first place.

And exactly why do you mention agriculture?

Finally, I think it was more an instance of Religion establishing government rather than the other way around. In the early days anyway.

I mention agriculture because it is the single biggest welfare program in this country. Having grown up on a farm, in a farming community, I was and continue to be appualled at how the government pays farmers to do nothing. the vast majority of americans are completely ingnorant of this.

And to say congress doesn't give tax perks, you are making a distinction without a difference. The fact of the matter is that government policy enables religions to prosper.

 

[Reuben]

What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand?

Not sure where you are going with this? Congress makes lots of laws which help religion at the expense of the fisk. This seems unconstitutional to me.

 

[Katzndogz]

Religion enables the government? That seems a little far fetched unless you are living in Iran.

At the moment, I'm living in a bottle of Jim Beam.

You reference much more than religion here.

The government doesn't "give tax perks". Under certain circumstances, it just takes less of what isn't theirs in the first place.

And exactly why do you mention agriculture?

Finally, I think it was more an instance of Religion establishing government rather than the other way around. In the early days anyway.

I mention agriculture because it is the single biggest welfare program in this country. Having grown up on a farm, in a farming community, I was and continue to be appualled at how the government pays farmers to do nothing. the vast majority of americans are completely ingnorant of this.

And to say congress doesn't give tax perks, you are making a distinction without a difference. The fact of the matter is that government policy enables religions to prosper.

They aren't really paid to do nothing. They are paid not to grow and use domestic production to suppress the price of imports. Any liberal who believes in global redistribution of wealth should understand that.

 

[Mr. H.]

Religion enables the government? That seems a little far fetched unless you are living in Iran.

At the moment, I'm living in a bottle of Jim Beam.

You reference much more than religion here.

The government doesn't "give tax perks". Under certain circumstances, it just takes less of what isn't theirs in the first place.

And exactly why do you mention agriculture?

Finally, I think it was more an instance of Religion establishing government rather than the other way around. In the early days anyway.

I mention agriculture because it is the single biggest welfare program in this country. Having grown up on a farm, in a farming community, I was and continue to be appualled at how the government pays farmers to do nothing. the vast majority of americans are completely ingnorant of this.

And to say congress doesn't give tax perks, you are making a distinction without a difference. The fact of the matter is that government policy enables religions to prosper.

I'm impwessed. never thought I'd hear those words from an actual farmer.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Being a 503c Non Profit Church is what makes them Tax Exempt. But if they take that Tax Status then the Church cannot talk about Political subjects.

That's why I loved the Church my wife and I went to in Maryland because the Pastor would say:

"I know a lot of you come here every week and sing and pray and CLAIM to know the Bible but I see all your cars in the parking lot with the Liberal/Democrat stickers on them. Well let me tell you something: If you vote Democrat, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" Half the people would cheer, the other half would be subdued!

I loved that pastor! I love anyone who can get up in front of people in Church and just Breathe Fire!

503C Tax Status prevents all that. So you should find a Church that is not 503C.

 

[pinqy]

People get to deduct contributions to churches. Churches pay no tax, and clergy recieve massive tax perks. This is an indirect way for government to establish religion in this country.

Not quite. People get to deduct contributions to Charities. Churches are classed as Charities and therefore pay no taxes and follow the rules for Charities. The only difference between Churches and other Charities/non-profits is that there are slightly looser rules to qualify.

That's why it's not an Establishment Clause issue...it's not Churches as such, but Charities that are supported.

 

[midcan5]

Personally I haven't any interest one way or the other, but some do. See:

home

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

"Whether you interpret that statement as an originalist, papist, feminist, or any other -ist, exempting religious organizations from paying taxes is a clear case of our government "respecting an establishment of religion," precisely what the framers intended to prohibit.

This is not to suggest that you abandon your church or your faith. For one thing, any religious organization that lives up to its commitments to its congregation and community would have nothing to fear from filing a tax return, just like every other non-profit. For another, when these institutions pay taxes like every other non-profit, each citizen's tax burden is significantly lessened and consequently he or she may better endow a worthy institution with individual support."

 

[Katzndogz]

Being a 503c Non Profit Church is what makes them Tax Exempt. But if they take that Tax Status then the Church cannot talk about Political subjects.

That's why I loved the Church my wife and I went to in Maryland because the Pastor would say:

"I know a lot of you come here every week and sing and pray and CLAIM to know the Bible but I see all your cars in the parking lot with the Liberal/Democrat stickers on them. Well let me tell you something: If you vote Democrat, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" Half the people would cheer, the other half would be subdued!

I loved that pastor! I love anyone who can get up in front of people in Church and just Breathe Fire!

503C Tax Status prevents all that. So you should find a Church that is not 503C.

Have you ever been to a black church? Go to the First AME in Los Angeles, it's all politics.

 

[jasonnfree]

If Obama were the Marxist some on the right says he is, he maybe would have put tax exemptions for religion on the table instead of social security.

 

[Reuben]

Being a 503c Non Profit Church is what makes them Tax Exempt. But if they take that Tax Status then the Church cannot talk about Political subjects.

That's why I loved the Church my wife and I went to in Maryland because the Pastor would say:

"I know a lot of you come here every week and sing and pray and CLAIM to know the Bible but I see all your cars in the parking lot with the Liberal/Democrat stickers on them. Well let me tell you something: If you vote Democrat, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" Half the people would cheer, the other half would be subdued!

I loved that pastor! I love anyone who can get up in front of people in Church and just Breathe Fire!

503C Tax Status prevents all that. So you should find a Church that is not 503C.

Have you ever been to a black church? Go to the First AME in Los Angeles, it's all politics.

How did the mormons keep their 503C status after they got involved in Prop 8?

 

[Avatar4321]

Personally I haven't any interest one way or the other, but some do. See:

home

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

"Whether you interpret that statement as an originalist, papist, feminist, or any other -ist, exempting religious organizations from paying taxes is a clear case of our government "respecting an establishment of religion," precisely what the framers intended to prohibit.

This is not to suggest that you abandon your church or your faith. For one thing, any religious organization that lives up to its commitments to its congregation and community would have nothing to fear from filing a tax return, just like every other non-profit. For another, when these institutions pay taxes like every other non-profit, each citizen's tax burden is significantly lessened and consequently he or she may better endow a worthy institution with individual support."

If the government isn't corrupt, it has absolutely no fear of what any Church might say over the pulpit.

 

[Avatar4321]

Being a 503c Non Profit Church is what makes them Tax Exempt. But if they take that Tax Status then the Church cannot talk about Political subjects.

That's why I loved the Church my wife and I went to in Maryland because the Pastor would say:

"I know a lot of you come here every week and sing and pray and CLAIM to know the Bible but I see all your cars in the parking lot with the Liberal/Democrat stickers on them. Well let me tell you something: If you vote Democrat, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" Half the people would cheer, the other half would be subdued!

I loved that pastor! I love anyone who can get up in front of people in Church and just Breathe Fire!

503C Tax Status prevents all that. So you should find a Church that is not 503C.

Have you ever been to a black church? Go to the First AME in Los Angeles, it's all politics.

How did the mormons keep their 503C status after they got involved in Prop 8?

Again. What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand.

You tax religions, you are making a law. It's illegal to do so for that reason alone. That's why Churches have been challenging that statute lately. They've been sending sermons into the IRS to invite them to try to challenge them in their GOD GIVEN Rights to free speech and free religion.

The government can control that which it taxes, which is why the Founders placed Churches outside the governments control.

 

[PoliticalChic]

What part of "Congress shall make no law" is difficult to understand?

If, only...Av....


Churches and other nonprofits are strictly prohibited from engaging in political campaigning. This prohibition stems from the requirements of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (“Code”).
Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
Churches and Political Lobbying Activities - Freedom From Religion Foundation

 

[PoliticalChic]

When people talk about corporate welfare, what they really mean is that the government is giving these entities so many tax perks it amounts to free money (unless we are talking about agribusiness and the military industrial complex). So, we as a country have an inate understanding that government subsidizes certain industries or behaviours through the tax code.

People get to deduct contributions to churches. Churches pay no tax, and clergy recieve massive tax perks. This is an indirect way for government to establish religion in this country.

Imagine for a second how successful many churches would be if they actually had to pay tax, or had to audit their books. I don't think anyone would argue that churches would suffer from refusing a religous contribution deduction, let alone the freebies given to clergy and churches.

If an entity cannot continue without a given government policy, it seems to reason that the government policy is enabling its existence. Isn't this the entire thing the establishment clause was designed to prevent?

"...so many tax perks it amounts to free money (unless we are talking about agribusiness..."

What is the "unless"?


1. According to John Stossel, the biggest welfare queens are farmers. Agricultural subsidies including direct payments, marketing loans, counter-cyclical payments, conservation subsidies, insurance, disaster aid, export subsidies, and agricultural research, taken together, have become one of the largest middle- and upper-class welfare programs in the nation.

a. “Washington paid out a quarter of a trillion dollars in federal farm subsidies between 1995 and 2009, but to characterize the programs as either a “big government” bailout or another form of welfare would be manifestly unfair – to bailouts and welfare.” Government’s Continuing Bailout of Corporate Agriculture | Environmental Working Group

b. “From 1995 to 2009, the largest and wealthiest top 10 percent of farm program recipients collected 74 percent of all farm subsidies, with an average total payment over 15 years of $445,127 per recipient – hardly a safety net for small struggling farmers. The bottom 80 percent of farmers received an average total payment of just $8,682 per recipient.” Ibid.

2. “…payments have grown into an even larger subsidy that benefits millionaire landowners, foreign speculators and absentee landlords, as well as farmers. Most of the money goes to real farmers who grow crops on their land, but they are under no obligation to grow the crop being subsidized. They can switch to a different crop or raise cattle or even grow a stand of timber -- and still get the government payments. The cash comes with so few restrictions that subdivision developers who buy farmland advertise that homeowners can collect farm subsidies on their new back yards. The payments now account for nearly half of the nation's expanding agricultural subsidy system, a complex web that has little basis in fairness or efficiency. What began in the 1930s as a limited safety net for working farmers has swollen into a far-flung infrastructure of entitlements that has cost $172 billion over the past decade. In 2005 alone, when pretax farm profits were at a near-record $72 billion, the federal government handed out more than $25 billion in aid, almost 50 percent more than the amount it pays to families receiving welfare.” Farm Program Pays $1.3 Billion to People Who Don't Farm

Again: “In 2005 alone, when pretax farm profits were at a near-record $72 billion, the federal government handed out more than $25 billion in aid, almost 50 percent more than the amount it pays to families receiving welfare.”