Gorging At The Public Trough

[Madeline]

Let's turn off the recording of "Solidarity Forever" you have playing, Wry Catcher. I'm not buying the "we forewent more lucrative opportunities in the private sector" argument. For starters, so what? For second, you gonna seriously argue that the skill set of a trained EMT, firefighter or police officer is transferable to corporate America? Nonsense.

What happens, IYO, when the money just runs the fuck out? When it comes down to paying these obscene bumps and retirement benefits -- often to 40 year olds working a second career -- and paying CURRENT payroll?

Since 1980, 32 cities and towns have declared bankruptcy, according to James Spiotta, a leading municipal bankruptcy lawyer. Most notable of these were Bridgeport, Conn., population 140,000, which declared bankruptcy in 1991. And, in the nation's biggest municipal bankruptcy, Orange County, Calif., sought protection from its creditors in 1994 after city officials made a series of bad investments.

What Happens When City Hall Goes Bankrupt? : NPR

I do not understand greed, Wry Catcher. If your employer is insolvent and your fellow man is suffering, how can you take a retirement bump of more than $100,000? Why is it that these workers can't look at their city and say "yanno, no one thought it'd ever be this bad when these rules were negotiated. How about I take just the retirement I'm due without the bump?"

I think Golden Parachuts in the private sector are offensive -- why should I hold my nose when they are handed out in the public sector?

 

[xsited1]

Most of the government in Little Rock was shut down 2 days last week because of the snow. The State workers still got paid even though they didn't work. They did not lose any sick or vacation time.

Bingo. It's not like they have those huge vacation accruals because they haven't taken any time off.

The abuse of sick leave instead of taking vacation time is also frightfully common.

I see it first hand. There are folks in the system that know exactly what to do to work the system. They take advantage because it's all about them and what they can get.

Here's just one of many stories I have. I was doing contracting work at a State agency a few years ago. A group of employees would arrive at 8:30 a.m., clock-in and then go to the cafeteria to eat breakfast, returning about an hour or two later. They were told their shift started at 8:30 a.m., not 9:30 or 10:30, but they continued doing this. The entire group was fired. They then filed a lawsuit against the agency claiming racial discrimination (they were all black). They also said that they were never given written instructions which indicated that they could not spend an hour or two eating breakfast on "company" time.

The result? They were all given their jobs back along with an undisclosed settlement, all paid for by the taxpayers of Arkansas.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Let's turn off the recording of "Solidarity Forever" you have playing, Wry Catcher. For starters, I'm not buying the "we forewent more lucrative opportunities in the private sector" argument. For starters, so what? For second, you gonna seriously argue that the skill set of a trained EMT, firefighter or police officer is transferable to corporate America? Nonsense.

What happens, IYO, when the money just runs the fuck out? When it comes down to paying these obscene bumps and retirement benefits -- often to 40 year olds working a second career -- and paying CURRENT payroll?

Since 1980, 32 cities and towns have declared bankruptcy, according to James Spiotta, a leading municipal bankruptcy lawyer. Most notable of these were Bridgeport, Conn., population 140,000, which declared bankruptcy in 1991. And, in the nation's biggest municipal bankruptcy, Orange County, Calif., sought protection from its creditors in 1994 after city officials made a series of bad investments.

What Happens When City Hall Goes Bankrupt? : NPR

I do not understand greed, Wry Catcher. If your employer is insolvent and your fellow man is suffering, how can you take a retirement bump of more than $100,000? Why is it that these workers can't look at their city and say "yanno, no one thought it'd ever be this bad when these rules were negotiated. How about I take just the retirement I'm due without the bump?"

I think Golden Parachuts in the private sector are offensive -- why should I hold my nose when they are handed out in the public sector?

Facts you don't understand:

1. Retirement is based on years of service and salary earned.
2. In the two agencies I worked for - and this is typical - we paid into retirement.
3. Government salaries - local, state, federal and special districts are posted on line.
4. Salaries and benefits were approved by elected officials.
5. No bonuses are paid to safety employees.
6. Pensions are paid by a formula. Example below:

Your example of the 40 year old is wrong. Unless s/he was hurt on the job a 40 year old could only earn retirement based on 19 years of service. The maximum benefit tops at 3% at 50. (this means at age 50 an employee would receive 1/12 of 3% times 19, or 57% of their final years compensation, beginning the month after their 50th birthday).
However, the factor of 3% is the maximum factor, it is determined by age at retirement and years of service. So, the 40 year old in you example would likely have a factor less than 2%, meaning he or she would at most receive 38% of the final years compensation. And, since 50 is the lowest age, and 62 is generally the age one is required to retire, it's likely the 38% would not be recieved until the 40 year old reached age 55 or 58.

 

[signelect]

Public sector unions have done more to damage our economy than any other single group including the so called top 2% most of who risk all that they have to provide jobs to those who can't or won't start their own businesses.

 

[Madeline]

Clearly, the calculations vary from pension plan to pension plan, Wry Catcher, but I see you have evaded my other remarks.

This city, Cincinnati, is on the ropes. As are many cities across the country. If nothing is done to head off a crisis, in some cities the retired will no longer receive the benefits they were promised -- or any benefits at all. There is a FIRE in the bank accounts. I dunno how to make this any plainer.

When the auto makers sunk into a loss position in the 1990's they remade their pension plans and eliminated medical insurance for retirees, and no one thought that was "immoral". When the steel industry collapsed here, the pensions of all the workers evaporated as well....no money, no benefits. This WAS viewed as immoral, and rightly so, but it was still legal. I'm not even suggesting normal retirement benefits not be paid -- just that bumps should be eliminated.

I do not understand a police officer, etc. with 20 years in about to retire at 40 saying "I dun care, I want every dime I can get, fuck this town and its police department".

How can you people justify this "I got mine, fuck you if you dun got yours" attitude? Shouldn't all of us -- including public employees -- share the pain?

 

[Madeline]

Public sector unions have done more to damage our economy than any other single group including the so called top 2% most of who risk all that they have to provide jobs to those who can't or won't start their own businesses.

Yet another banner waver. This is bullshit. Cops, EMTs, firefighters -- as well as other public employees -- are predominately fine people with an excellent work ethic, many of whom risk their lives for their communities.

Proportionality is your friend, signelect. Dial it down.

 

[Madeline]

Bingo. It's not like they have those huge vacation accruals because they haven't taken any time off.

The abuse of sick leave instead of taking vacation time is also frightfully common.

I see it first hand. There are folks in the system that know exactly what to do to work the system. They take advantage because it's all about them and what they can get.

Here's just one of many stories I have. I was doing contracting work at a State agency a few years ago. A group of employees would arrive at 8:30 a.m., clock-in and then go to the cafeteria to eat breakfast, returning about an hour or two later. They were told their shift started at 8:30 a.m., not 9:30 or 10:30, but they continued doing this. The entire group was fired. They then filed a lawsuit against the agency claiming racial discrimination (they were all black). They also said that they were never given written instructions which indicated that they could not spend an hour or two eating breakfast on "company" time.

The result? They were all given their jobs back along with an undisclosed settlement, all paid for by the taxpayers of Arkansas.

This is an evil effect of unionizing civil service employees. Another freakish unnecessary power grab that the citizens should not have permitted. WTF needs both union and civil service protections?

 

[martybegan]

The problem of end-of-career bumps is akin to the whole underfunded pension problem. When cities were strapped for cash, they found myriad ways to promise "someday we'll pay you more". We need reforms, mebbe at the federal level, to prevent this kind of blurring the line between current salary and deferred compensation.

If it takes $100,000 a year to keep a firefighter on the payroll (color me smelling bullshit here), then cities should be forced to pay that $100,000 in the year that firefighter works.,..not $60,000 now and another $40,000 in twenty years. These bullshit accounting games have gotten the cities and states into the mess they're in, and must stop.

Of course it's not sustainable, and new hires are not offered the same salaries and benefits which my generation received. Many of us were offered more lucrative jobs during the years we earned less than some of our friends and neighbors. Some left for the private sector and got nice raises and 401k retirements - most are still working today as are some of my friends who relied on the stock market and home equity for their golden years. I'm not. I don't regret it nor do I feel guilty for providing for my family.

Envy is one of the deadly sins, and powerful forces have made an effort to put pensions on the radar creating the divisive rhetoric which pits worker against worker. Not only government employees but members of labor unions are being attacked; and the power elite, the plutocrats, are shielding themselves from this debate and laughing as they 'go' to the banks in the Cayman Islands or Switzerland.

I do hope you note the conflict of your referencing envy as a sin in the same thread you rail against the "richest 2%" as well as the "elite"

 

[martybegan]

Let's turn off the recording of "Solidarity Forever" you have playing, Wry Catcher. For starters, I'm not buying the "we forewent more lucrative opportunities in the private sector" argument. For starters, so what? For second, you gonna seriously argue that the skill set of a trained EMT, firefighter or police officer is transferable to corporate America? Nonsense.

What happens, IYO, when the money just runs the fuck out? When it comes down to paying these obscene bumps and retirement benefits -- often to 40 year olds working a second career -- and paying CURRENT payroll?

Since 1980, 32 cities and towns have declared bankruptcy, according to James Spiotta, a leading municipal bankruptcy lawyer. Most notable of these were Bridgeport, Conn., population 140,000, which declared bankruptcy in 1991. And, in the nation's biggest municipal bankruptcy, Orange County, Calif., sought protection from its creditors in 1994 after city officials made a series of bad investments.

What Happens When City Hall Goes Bankrupt? : NPR

I do not understand greed, Wry Catcher. If your employer is insolvent and your fellow man is suffering, how can you take a retirement bump of more than $100,000? Why is it that these workers can't look at their city and say "yanno, no one thought it'd ever be this bad when these rules were negotiated. How about I take just the retirement I'm due without the bump?"

I think Golden Parachuts in the private sector are offensive -- why should I hold my nose when they are handed out in the public sector?

Facts you don't understand:

1. Retirement is based on years of service and salary earned.
2. In the two agencies I worked for - and this is typical - we paid into retirement.
3. Government salaries - local, state, federal and special districts are posted on line.
4. Salaries and benefits were approved by elected officials.
5. No bonuses are paid to safety employees.
6. Pensions are paid by a formula. Example below:

Your example of the 40 year old is wrong. Unless s/he was hurt on the job a 40 year old could only earn retirement based on 19 years of service. The maximum benefit tops at 3% at 50. (this means at age 50 an employee would receive 1/12 of 3% times 19, or 57% of their final years compensation, beginning the month after their 50th birthday).
However, the factor of 3% is the maximum factor, it is determined by age at retirement and years of service. So, the 40 year old in you example would likely have a factor less than 2%, meaning he or she would at most receive 38% of the final years compensation. And, since 50 is the lowest age, and 62 is generally the age one is required to retire, it's likely the 38% would not be recieved until the 40 year old reached age 55 or 58.

lets go over your points:

1. It depends on the system. Some base your pension on your last few years of service, including overtime. This is what gutted the higher echelons of the FDNY as those who worked massive overtime after 9/11 retired when they could with thier over base salaries. I dont blame them for it, as staying in under the rules would cost them money.

2. The amount paid in is usually woefully under what is required to fund your whole retirement, not including interest accured while you work. This is the main problem of defined benefits retirement packages as opposed to defined contribution.

3. This is only base salary, and maybe overtime. what is not included is what is paid into for fringe beneifts, and of course payouts for unused sick/vacation time at the end (i have no issue with payout for unused vacation time, my only issue is with sick)

4. Elected officals who pander to the public unions, who represent a huge relatively monolitic voting block (particularly in local elections.) The workers become the bosses when it comes to employee pay and benefits, without having the risk or cost of being a boss, as the overall cost of these elevated salaries and benefits are paid for by the tax base as a whole.

5. In NYC the retired cops and firefighters get a 12k a year "bonus" from something negotiated decades ago.

6. That formula is only for a specific case. Some use a system like I described above, with something like a 10 year requirement prior to you being eligible for a pension.

 

[The Infidel]

This is yet another example of how our Public Servants have pay and benefits which far exceed those of the poor shlubs in the private sector who foot the bills.

I smell union goons at work.

 

[editec]

My comment is based upon the bullshit practice of bureaucrats sandbagging sick and vacation days and taking away a huge payday.

Few in the real world get to do so.

Pretty lame hijack attempt, Vermin.

You mean like very person I ever knew who stayed long enough to retire from the military does?


And one wonders how many military retire then go on to other public sectors jobs to get still another plush retirement package from some state, Federal or municipality post?

I know of at least three people in my small town of 3,000 currently doing exactly that.

Must be nice, huh?

 

[westwall]

My comment is based upon the bullshit practice of bureaucrats sandbagging sick and vacation days and taking away a huge payday.

Few in the real world get to do so.

Pretty lame hijack attempt, Vermin.

You mean like very person I ever knew who stayed long enough to retire from the military does?


And one wonders how many military retire then go on to other public sectors jobs to get still another plush retirement package from some state, Federal or municipality post?

I know of at least three people in my small town of 3,000 currently doing exactly that.

Must be nice, huh?

Yes it is and I would pass a law that said people can only get one publicly funded retirement package.

 

[Madeline]

I would pass a law that if you commit a felony in the course of your employment, no retirement for you. Makes me furious, paying retirement benefits to people in prison for corruption.

 

[boedicca]

lol

It's true, but I don't expect you to have the intellectual honesty to admit it.

The median family in the U.S. spends over 35% of its income on taxes, far more than their mortgage, food, educating their children, saving for their own retirement...

The Tax Foundation - The Tax Burden of the Median American Family

Yes they do and much/most of it on local and property taxes.
But that has nothing to do with the govt trying to weasel out of a debt owed.
I agree rules should be changed for the future, but debts must be paid for those who accrued benefits under the existing rules.

Politicians and public employee unions colluded to fleece the taxpayers via exorbitant pensions that were justified with FRAUDULENT investment return forecasts.

I feel no obligation to honor such "debt" is warranted.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Public sector unions have done more to damage our economy than any other single group including the so called top 2% most of who risk all that they have to provide jobs to those who can't or won't start their own businesses.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Do you have facts to prove your claim?

 

[boedicca]

Uh, how about the massive deficits at the city, state, and national levels which are resulting in cuts in services in order to pay ever increasing pension burdens?

 

[WorldWatcher]

My comment is based upon the bullshit practice of bureaucrats sandbagging sick and vacation days and taking away a huge payday.

Few in the real world get to do so.

Pretty lame hijack attempt, Vermin.

You mean like very person I ever knew who stayed long enough to retire from the military does?

This makes me wonder if you know anyone in the military.

1. The military doesn't accrue Sick Days.

2. The military doesn't accrue "Vacation" Days.

3. The military accrues one type of paid time off and that is "Leave". A members earns 2.5 days per month (for a total of 30 days per year). By law members of the military are limited to 60-days of accrued Leave on October 1st (beginning of the fiscal year) in a "use it or loose it" situation. (Unless they qualify for one of the very limite exceptions for excess accrued leave and then it is limited to 90-days.

United States Code: Title 10,701. Entitlement and accumulation | LII / Legal Information Institute
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/132706p.pdf
http://advancement.corpsman.com/files/NAVPERSART1050.pdf​

And one wonders how many military retire then go on to other public sectors jobs to get still another plush retirement package from some state, Federal or municipality post?

I know of at least three people in my small town of 3,000 currently doing exactly that.

Pretty much depends on the skill set the military person brings to the table and the nature of the work.

I'm dong it now, I was in the Navy for 20 years in Aviation Electronics and collection/analysis of electronic intelligence and as a SNCO I was very familiar with personnel management/issues. I leveraged that, plus the Bachelors and Masters degrees earned while on active duty, into a successful marketing of my skills in the private sector. A job opened in the local school system with regular hours in the area I wanted so I went back into the public sector.

Must be nice, huh?

It's not bad, although I'm not sure what the issue is, I'll be receiving compensation for time worked in two different jobs. On from the Federal Government for time served on Active Duty, one from funds paid into the State Retirements System.

Actually for the State, I'm a good buy. Someone hired in their early to mid-twenties doing what I do will retire at the earliest of about 55 (at reduced benefits) or 65 (with full benefits). Now a single carrier person is going to retire with 40-50 years in the system. They will draw much more then I will because at 65 I'll have been in the system for around 25 years.


>>>>

 

[Wry Catcher]

Let's turn off the recording of "Solidarity Forever" you have playing, Wry Catcher. For starters, I'm not buying the "we forewent more lucrative opportunities in the private sector" argument. For starters, so what? For second, you gonna seriously argue that the skill set of a trained EMT, firefighter or police officer is transferable to corporate America? Nonsense.

What happens, IYO, when the money just runs the fuck out? When it comes down to paying these obscene bumps and retirement benefits -- often to 40 year olds working a second career -- and paying CURRENT payroll?



What Happens When City Hall Goes Bankrupt? : NPR

I do not understand greed, Wry Catcher. If your employer is insolvent and your fellow man is suffering, how can you take a retirement bump of more than $100,000? Why is it that these workers can't look at their city and say "yanno, no one thought it'd ever be this bad when these rules were negotiated. How about I take just the retirement I'm due without the bump?"

I think Golden Parachuts in the private sector are offensive -- why should I hold my nose when they are handed out in the public sector?

Facts you don't understand:

1. Retirement is based on years of service and salary earned.
2. In the two agencies I worked for - and this is typical - we paid into retirement.
3. Government salaries - local, state, federal and special districts are posted on line.
4. Salaries and benefits were approved by elected officials.
5. No bonuses are paid to safety employees.
6. Pensions are paid by a formula. Example below:

Your example of the 40 year old is wrong. Unless s/he was hurt on the job a 40 year old could only earn retirement based on 19 years of service. The maximum benefit tops at 3% at 50. (this means at age 50 an employee would receive 1/12 of 3% times 19, or 57% of their final years compensation, beginning the month after their 50th birthday).
However, the factor of 3% is the maximum factor, it is determined by age at retirement and years of service. So, the 40 year old in you example would likely have a factor less than 2%, meaning he or she would at most receive 38% of the final years compensation. And, since 50 is the lowest age, and 62 is generally the age one is required to retire, it's likely the 38% would not be recieved until the 40 year old reached age 55 or 58.

lets go over your points:

1. It depends on the system. Some base your pension on your last few years of service, including overtime. This is what gutted the higher echelons of the FDNY as those who worked massive overtime after 9/11 retired when they could with thier over base salaries. I dont blame them for it, as staying in under the rules would cost them money.

2. The amount paid in is usually woefully under what is required to fund your whole retirement, not including interest accured while you work. This is the main problem of defined benefits retirement packages as opposed to defined contribution.

3. This is only base salary, and maybe overtime. what is not included is what is paid into for fringe beneifts, and of course payouts for unused sick/vacation time at the end (i have no issue with payout for unused vacation time, my only issue is with sick)

4. Elected officals who pander to the public unions, who represent a huge relatively monolitic voting block (particularly in local elections.) The workers become the bosses when it comes to employee pay and benefits, without having the risk or cost of being a boss, as the overall cost of these elevated salaries and benefits are paid for by the tax base as a whole.

5. In NYC the retired cops and firefighters get a 12k a year "bonus" from something negotiated decades ago.

6. That formula is only for a specific case. Some use a system like I described above, with something like a 10 year requirement prior to you being eligible for a pension.

I can't and didn't source NYC, I reported on the system I'm familiar with. You're correct when you suggest the final base salary can and is different in different systems. I simply provided one example, one I know and one I benefit from to disabuse those who believe as does Maddie the propaganda being used against public employees.
And yes, I bumped my salary, I sold 1/3 of my vacation (a perk only managers and above are provided) and 40 hours of Floating Holiday to bump by final years salary by one month. Floating holiday was substitued for Lincolns Birthday and Admission Day which once were holidays, instead each government employee earns 2 hours a month in lieu of those days off. Also any vacation not used is paid-off at retirement further bumping ones final compensation.
All of that said, all of those who are complaining failure to recognize how the RW plutocrats pit workers against each other. Propaganda works when one lets their emotion replace reason.

 

[Madeline]

Wry Catcher wrote:

I can't and didn't source NYC, I reported on the system I'm familiar with. You're correct when you suggest the final base salary can and is different in different systems. I simply provided one example, one I know and one I benefit from to disabuse those who believe as does Maddie the propaganda being used against public employees.
And yes, I bumped my salary, I sold 1/3 of my vacation (a perk only managers and above are provided) and 40 hours of Floating Holiday to bump by final years salary by one month. Floating holiday was substitued for Lincolns Birthday and Admission Day which once were holidays, instead each government employee earns 2 hours a month in lieu of those days off. Also any vacation not used is paid-off at retirement further bumping ones final compensation.
All of that said, all of those who are complaining failure to recognize how the RW plutocrats pit workers against each other. Propaganda works when one lets their emotion replace reason.

Bullshit. The fact is, the interests of the citizens of Cincinnati are in tension with the interests of that city's public employees due to retire.

Selfishness offends me, Wry Catcher. I am sick of people saying we should get to solving our problems but that their interests are inviolate sacred cows. I have a state pension myself, along with medical insurance. I fully expect -- and have planned for -- the loss of my insurance at some point. I would be willing to consider, and might even support, a reduction in my pension benefit if my former employer were severely on the ropes.

Tell me, IYO, how many school lunch programs should be reduced to fund the bumps in Cincinnati? How many libraries closed? How many street repairs deferred?

 

[westwall]

Facts you don't understand:

1. Retirement is based on years of service and salary earned.
2. In the two agencies I worked for - and this is typical - we paid into retirement.
3. Government salaries - local, state, federal and special districts are posted on line.
4. Salaries and benefits were approved by elected officials.
5. No bonuses are paid to safety employees.
6. Pensions are paid by a formula. Example below:

Your example of the 40 year old is wrong. Unless s/he was hurt on the job a 40 year old could only earn retirement based on 19 years of service. The maximum benefit tops at 3% at 50. (this means at age 50 an employee would receive 1/12 of 3% times 19, or 57% of their final years compensation, beginning the month after their 50th birthday).
However, the factor of 3% is the maximum factor, it is determined by age at retirement and years of service. So, the 40 year old in you example would likely have a factor less than 2%, meaning he or she would at most receive 38% of the final years compensation. And, since 50 is the lowest age, and 62 is generally the age one is required to retire, it's likely the 38% would not be recieved until the 40 year old reached age 55 or 58.

lets go over your points:

1. It depends on the system. Some base your pension on your last few years of service, including overtime. This is what gutted the higher echelons of the FDNY as those who worked massive overtime after 9/11 retired when they could with thier over base salaries. I dont blame them for it, as staying in under the rules would cost them money.

2. The amount paid in is usually woefully under what is required to fund your whole retirement, not including interest accured while you work. This is the main problem of defined benefits retirement packages as opposed to defined contribution.

3. This is only base salary, and maybe overtime. what is not included is what is paid into for fringe beneifts, and of course payouts for unused sick/vacation time at the end (i have no issue with payout for unused vacation time, my only issue is with sick)

4. Elected officals who pander to the public unions, who represent a huge relatively monolitic voting block (particularly in local elections.) The workers become the bosses when it comes to employee pay and benefits, without having the risk or cost of being a boss, as the overall cost of these elevated salaries and benefits are paid for by the tax base as a whole.

5. In NYC the retired cops and firefighters get a 12k a year "bonus" from something negotiated decades ago.

6. That formula is only for a specific case. Some use a system like I described above, with something like a 10 year requirement prior to you being eligible for a pension.

I can't and didn't source NYC, I reported on the system I'm familiar with. You're correct when you suggest the final base salary can and is different in different systems. I simply provided one example, one I know and one I benefit from to disabuse those who believe as does Maddie the propaganda being used against public employees.
And yes, I bumped my salary, I sold 1/3 of my vacation (a perk only managers and above are provided) and 40 hours of Floating Holiday to bump by final years salary by one month. Floating holiday was substitued for Lincolns Birthday and Admission Day which once were holidays, instead each government employee earns 2 hours a month in lieu of those days off. Also any vacation not used is paid-off at retirement further bumping ones final compensation.
All of that said, all of those who are complaining failure to recognize how the RW plutocrats pit workers against each other. Propaganda works when one lets their emotion replace reason.

Cities going broke and needed support programs being cut to support grossly overpaid retirements are not propaganda chum....they are facts.