Gorging At The Public Trough

[uscitizen]

Ahh one of the main unspoken goals of congress right now is to figure out how to keep from having to pay back SS surplus funds spoent our of general funds.
And all without letting the public know what they are really doing. Cloak it in some form of good sounding thing like SS reform.

Debts Must be paid.

 

[uscitizen]

It's not punishing jack shit.

Use it or lose it.

Was that the rules there?

Your rules do not rule.

If they played by the rules, debts must be paid.

Absolutly. Even if it means the ruin of the city, state or country.

Yes even then.

 

[martybegan]

So we punish those who do save up their vacations and such for when they retire?

Its less about vacation time then sick time. I can get paid out for my vacation time as well. (DISCLAIMER: I dont get seperate vacation/sick, i get whats called paid time off PTO, which can be used for both). I bave no issue with anyone getting paid out for thier unused VACATION days.

The issue is more about sick time, which in most public jobs can only be used when you are sick. What was intended as a way to provide security for people when they work turns into basically an extra 13-15 days of pay you collect at the end of your career. This was never the intent of it. It was intended to allow you to collect you paycheck when you got the flu, (and not infect your coworkers), not to pad your retirement.

 

[boedicca]

Most of the government in Little Rock was shut down 2 days last week because of the snow. The State workers still got paid even though they didn't work. They did not lose any sick or vacation time.

Bingo. It's not like they have those huge vacation accruals because they haven't taken any time off.

The abuse of sick leave instead of taking vacation time is also frightfully common.

 

[uscitizen]

So we punish those who do save up their vacations and such for when they retire?

Its less about vacation time then sick time. I can get paid out for my vacation time as well. (DISCLAIMER: I dont get seperate vacation/sick, i get whats called paid time off PTO, which can be used for both). I bave no issue with anyone getting paid out for thier unused VACATION days.

The issue is more about sick time, which in most public jobs can only be used when you are sick. What was intended as a way to provide security for people when they work turns into basically an extra 13-15 days of pay you collect at the end of your career. This was never the intent of it. It was intended to allow you to collect you paycheck when you got the flu, (and not infect your coworkers), not to pad your retirement.

I agree in concept but if those workers followed the rules they they shoul be paid. The question at this point is not if the rules were right just that they were rules.

 

[Oddball]

So we punish those who do save up their vacations and such for when they retire?

It's not punishing jack shit.

Use it or lose it.

Was that the rules there?

Your rules do not rule.

If they played by the rules, debts must be paid.

Too bad so sad.

If CEOs can get their contractual pay agreements voided by fiat, it's good enough for the paper-pushing AFSCME bureaucrat.

Let them go get a real productive job if they don't like it.

 

[Oddball]

I agree in concept but if those workers followed the rules they they shoul be paid. The question at this point is not if the rules were right just that they were rules.

Lots and lots of play by the rules and end up getting shafted anyways.

My heart pumps peanut butter.

 

[boedicca]

A properly drafted incentive compensation agreement in the private sector always has a clause that enables the board or management to make changes based upon market conditions.

That same principle should apply to public sector workers. If a government entity is operating at a huge loss, pay and benefits should be cut. Period.

 

[uscitizen]

I agree in concept but if those workers followed the rules they they shoul be paid. The question at this point is not if the rules were right just that they were rules.

Lots and lots of play by the rules and end up getting shafted anyways.

My heart pumps peanut butter.

It just looks like peanut butter, but smells much worse!

My morals and personal responsibility say that debts owed must be paid.

 

[uscitizen]

A properly drafted incentive compensation agreement in the private sector always has a clause that enables the board or management to make changes based upon market conditions.

That same principle should apply to public sector workers. If a government entity is operating at a huge loss, pay and benefits should be cut. Period.

Courts have repeatedly said that benefits already accrued cannot be cut.

 

[del]

I agree in concept but if those workers followed the rules they they shoul be paid. The question at this point is not if the rules were right just that they were rules.

Lots and lots of play by the rules and end up getting shafted anyways.

My heart pumps peanut butter.

i have a friend that played by the rules at polaroid for 30+ years and then retired with a pension, health benefits etc that he had earned.

i'm reminded of it every time i see him at the supermarket...bagging

 

[masquerade]

Most of the government in Little Rock was shut down 2 days last week because of the snow. The State workers still got paid even though they didn't work. They did not lose any sick or vacation time.

Bingo. It's not like they have those huge vacation accruals because they haven't taken any time off.

The abuse of sick leave instead of taking vacation time is also frightfully common.

I see it first hand. There are folks in the system that know exactly what to do to work the system. They take advantage because it's all about them and what they can get.

 

[boedicca]

A properly drafted incentive compensation agreement in the private sector always has a clause that enables the board or management to make changes based upon market conditions.

That same principle should apply to public sector workers. If a government entity is operating at a huge loss, pay and benefits should be cut. Period.

Courts have repeatedly said that benefits already accrued cannot be cut.

Use it or lose it is a proper arrangement.

And defrauding one's employer by taking time off without claiming vacation is not a proper way to accrue benefits.

 

[uscitizen]

Use it or lose it ... And this is some of the same bunch that say we should be able to opt out of SS but that they would save better for retirement if they were out of SS?

 

[martybegan]

So we punish those who do save up their vacations and such for when they retire?

Its less about vacation time then sick time. I can get paid out for my vacation time as well. (DISCLAIMER: I dont get seperate vacation/sick, i get whats called paid time off PTO, which can be used for both). I bave no issue with anyone getting paid out for thier unused VACATION days.

The issue is more about sick time, which in most public jobs can only be used when you are sick. What was intended as a way to provide security for people when they work turns into basically an extra 13-15 days of pay you collect at the end of your career. This was never the intent of it. It was intended to allow you to collect you paycheck when you got the flu, (and not infect your coworkers), not to pad your retirement.

I agree in concept but if those workers followed the rules they they shoul be paid. The question at this point is not if the rules were right just that they were rules.

The problem is that the the public unions fight even changing this from now on, or even for new hires. Now I understand the unions have to fight to keep thier power, but the only way to fix this stuff is to at least eliminate it in the future.

I agree you cant go back and collect the money from those who have retired, or even strip away the days people have already accrued, but you should be able to (and really have to) change the rules so that from now on, this doesnt happen anymore.

 

[del]

Use it or lose it ... And this is some of the same bunch that say we should be able to opt out of SS but that they would save better for retirement if they were out of SS?

i'm so sorry the real world isn't to your liking.

 

[uscitizen]

Its less about vacation time then sick time. I can get paid out for my vacation time as well. (DISCLAIMER: I dont get seperate vacation/sick, i get whats called paid time off PTO, which can be used for both). I bave no issue with anyone getting paid out for thier unused VACATION days.

The issue is more about sick time, which in most public jobs can only be used when you are sick. What was intended as a way to provide security for people when they work turns into basically an extra 13-15 days of pay you collect at the end of your career. This was never the intent of it. It was intended to allow you to collect you paycheck when you got the flu, (and not infect your coworkers), not to pad your retirement.

I agree in concept but if those workers followed the rules they they shoul be paid. The question at this point is not if the rules were right just that they were rules.

The problem is that the the public unions fight even changing this from now on, or even for new hires. Now I understand the unions have to fight to keep thier power, but the only way to fix this stuff is to at least eliminate it in the future.

I agree you cant go back and collect the money from those who have retired, or even strip away the days people have already accrued, but you should be able to (and really have to) change the rules so that from now on, this doesnt happen anymore.

Bingo, change the rules for the future, but pay the debts owed under the old rules.

 

[boedicca]

I agree you cant go back and collect the money from those who have retired, or even strip away the days people have already accrued, but you should be able to (and really have to) change the rules so that from now on, this doesnt happen anymore.

Actually, we should be able to restructure those pension plans.

Benefits were dramatically increased VIA FRAUD. The pension administrators colluded with politicians to grossly inflate the expected returns (in CA, CALPERS used DOUBLE - very close to Bernie Madoff promises - the returns that a properly run private system would estimate). On this pretext of falsified returns, benefits were increased with a forecast that there would be plenty of money in the system.

I feel no moral nor ethical obligation to pay out compensation that was justified via FRAUD.

 

[uscitizen]

Use it or lose it ... And this is some of the same bunch that say we should be able to opt out of SS but that they would save better for retirement if they were out of SS?

i'm so sorry the real world isn't to your liking.

the real world is that people spend more than they earn and their savings for retirement is horrible.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Use it or lose it is a proper arrangement.

And defrauding one's employer by taking time off without claiming vacation is not a proper way to accrue benefits.

Just because someone accrues benefits does not make that accrual fraud. Remember that government entities have the option of providing overtime compensation in the form of "Compensatory Time" off at the over-time rate of 1.5 times hours worked over the FLSA minimums of 40. Remember "Comp Time" was instituted as a means of cost controls on the government so they wouldn't have to pay overtime. (Although an entity can pay over time if they choose, Comp Time is a legal option.)

If the assignment has earned Comp Time, the then it is the policy of the organization is that all time off must be charged against Comp Time before any other accrual to decrease employer liability (Paying one accrual at 1.5 times standard rate vice 1.0 times standard rate.)


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