Gore/global warming supporters.. please explain the following...

I'm not stating that energy can be created. I'm saying that IR photons heading towards space are absorbed by CO2 then re-mitted back towards earth. You seem to think that photons and heat are the same thing, when 99.99999999% of all physicists KNOW you don't get heat until a photon causes molecular movment in the matter it strikes, like EARTH!!!

If you are claiming that energy that is already within a system can somehow add energy to the system or that heat that is already within a system can somehow add additional heat to the system, then you are most certainly claiming the creation of energy somewhere.

You need to understand that a photon, as it applies to IR is nothing more than the smallest possible bit of IR. It is just the tiniest possible amount of IR. There is nothing magical about photons. For the photon to be carrying energy, that energy had to come from somewhere. It came from energy that was already within the system. Moving that energy from one place to another does not increase or descrease the energy within the systerm. The photon, being massless, and not matter at all can't make it to the surface of the earth against the greater EM field propagated from the surface of the earth anyway, but it can not add energy or heat to the system because the energy or heat was already within the system.

The accumulation of more and more photons over time instead of their being lost to space IS the addition of energy. If a photon cannot add energy to the earth, where does the enrgy of the photon go? Like others, others you're ignoring that old Conservation of Energy bauaboo. Why will no one address it? It's a basic principle of science, but it's being ignored!
 
The accumulation of more and more photons over time instead of their being lost to space IS the addition of energy. If a photon cannot add energy to the earth, where does the enrgy of the photon go? Like others, others you're ignoring that old Conservation of Energy bauaboo. Why will no one address it? It's a basic principle of science, but it's being ignored!

You simply don't get it konradv. I am sorry, but this is all way over your head and I doubt that you will ever get it.

Anything above the temperature of absolute zero is radiating IR. If it helps you to understand, then it is radiating photons. Look about you wherever you have your computer sitting. Everything you see is radiating photons and therefore is part of the energy budget within your home.

Now take some, or all of the items wherever you are, and place them in another room. You have effectively moved the IR emitter and the photons it is emitting from one part of the system that is your house to another. Do you believe that by moving that IR emitter and the photons it is emitting to a different location in your house that you have altered the energy budget within your house? Have you caused more energy to exist within your house? Have you changed the temperature within your house? If you too everyting in your house and piled it all in one room, do you believe you could change the mean temperature within your house?

Moving energy from one place to another within a system in which the energy is already resident will not alter the energy budget within that system. Sorry konradv, but you can't get around the laws of physics no matter how much you wish it were possible.
 
The accumulation of more and more photons over time instead of their being lost to space IS the addition of energy. If a photon cannot add energy to the earth, where does the enrgy of the photon go? Like others, others you're ignoring that old Conservation of Energy bauaboo. Why will no one address it? It's a basic principle of science, but it's being ignored!

You simply don't get it konradv. I am sorry, but this is all way over your head and I doubt that you will ever get it.

Anything above the temperature of absolute zero is radiating IR. If it helps you to understand, then it is radiating photons. Look about you wherever you have your computer sitting. Everything you see is radiating photons and therefore is part of the energy budget within your home.

Now take some, or all of the items wherever you are, and place them in another room. You have effectively moved the IR emitter and the photons it is emitting from one part of the system that is your house to another. Do you believe that by moving that IR emitter and the photons it is emitting to a different location in your house that you have altered the energy budget within your house? Have you caused more energy to exist within your house? Have you changed the temperature within your house? If you too everyting in your house and piled it all in one room, do you believe you could change the mean temperature within your house?

Moving energy from one place to another within a system in which the energy is already resident will not alter the energy budget within that system. Sorry konradv, but you can't get around the laws of physics no matter how much you wish it were possible.

You simply don't get it wirebender. I am sorry, but this is all way over your head and I doubt that you will ever get it.

in your house analogy- if you place bookshelves, furniture, draperies, etc on outside walls then the heat will escape more slowly and the equilibrium temperature for a fixed amount of heat input will go up.

on earth, the atmosphere slows the escape of IR to cold space, and therefore changes the equilibrium temperature at the surface. same input from the sun, same output at the top of the atmosphere, but a change in equilibrium temperature at the surface.

in the same fashion that you claim clothes make a person colder, you claim that CO2 cools the surface. your logic and understanding of physical processes is distorted by your contrarian need to go against accepted scientific principles. you suffer from the same religious fervor that many AGW catatrophists do, just in the opposiite direction.
 
As far as the current abrupt warming trend goes, scientists are very clear that it is the extra 40% of fossil carbon that mankind has added to the atmosphere that is causing it.



It seems that you are incapable of comprehending simple English 'cause, dude, that is not at all what I said. There are other factors, such as El Nino/La Nina, that drive the year to year variability and that variability can cause world average temperatures to vary slightly withing the overall trend of rising temperatures. So some years wind up being cooler than some of the immediately preceding years but still hotter than the previous averages spanning 40 years or so.
What abrupt warming? Last I saw the temps have stalled for the last decade and are possibly going to be dropping. So, if the temps do indeed drop, what does that say about CO2 as a driver?

Oh, walleyed, your denier cult delusions are occasionally humorous but mostly just sad. You are such a confused and demented little retard, it just hurts to watch you continually make such a fool out of yourself.

NOAA: Past Decade Warmest on Record According to Scientists in 48 Countries
Earth has been growing warmer for more than fifty years
NOAA

July 28, 2010
(government publication - free to reproduce)

The 2009 State of the Climate report released today draws on data for 10 key climate indicators that all point to the same finding: the scientific evidence that our world is warming is unmistakable. More than 300 scientists from 160 research groups in 48 countries contributed to the report, which confirms that the past decade was the warmest on record and that the Earth has been growing warmer over the last 50 years.

Based on comprehensive data from multiple sources, the report defines 10 measurable planet-wide features used to gauge global temperature changes. The relative movement of each of these indicators proves consistent with a warming world. Seven indicators are rising: air temperature over land, sea-surface temperature, air temperature over oceans, sea level, ocean heat, humidity and tropospheric temperature in the “active-weather” layer of the atmosphere closest to the Earth’s surface. Three indicators are declining: Arctic sea ice, glaciers and spring snow cover in the Northern hemisphere.

“For the first time, and in a single compelling comparison, the analysis brings together multiple observational records from the top of the atmosphere to the depths of the ocean,” said Jane Lubchenco, Ph.D., under secretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere and NOAA administrator. “The records come from many institutions worldwide. They use data collected from diverse sources, including satellites, weather balloons, weather stations, ships, buoys and field surveys. These independently produced lines of evidence all point to the same conclusion: our planet is warming,”


warmingindicators.jpg

Ten Indicators of a Warming World. (Credit: NOAA)

The report emphasizes that human society has developed for thousands of years under one climatic state, and now a new set of climatic conditions are taking shape. These conditions are consistently warmer, and some areas are likely to see more extreme events like severe drought, torrential rain and violent storms.

“Despite the variability caused by short-term changes, the analysis conducted for this report illustrates why we are so confident the world is warming,” said Peter Stott, Ph.D., contributor to the report and head of Climate Monitoring and Attribution of the United Kingdom Met Office Hadley Centre. “When we look at air temperature and other indicators of climate, we see highs and lows in the data from year to year because of natural variability. Understanding climate change requires looking at the longer-term record. When we follow decade-to-decade trends using multiple data sets and independent analyses from around the world, we see clear and unmistakable signs of a warming world.”

While year-to-year changes in temperature often reflect natural climatic variations such as El Niño/La Niña events, changes in average temperature from decade-to-decade reveal long-term trends such as global warming. Each of the last three decades has been much warmer than the decade before. At the time, the 1980s was the hottest decade on record. In the 1990s, every year was warmer than the average of the previous decade. The 2000s were warmer still.

“The temperature increase of one degree Fahrenheit over the past 50 years may seem small, but it has already altered our planet,” said Deke Arndt, co-editor of the report and chief of the Climate Monitoring Branch of NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center. “Glaciers and sea ice are melting, heavy rainfall is intensifying and heat waves are more common. And, as the new report tells us, there is now evidence that over 90 percent of warming over the past 50 years has gone into our ocean.”

More and more, Americans are witnessing the impacts of climate change in their own backyards, including sea-level rise, longer growing seasons, changes in river flows, increases in heavy downpours, earlier snowmelt and extended ice-free seasons in our waters. People are searching for relevant and timely information about these changes to inform decision-making about virtually all aspects of their lives. To help keep citizens and businesses informed about climate, NOAA created the Climate Portal at NOAA Climate Services. The portal features a short video that summarizes some of the highlights of the State of the Climate Report.

State of the Climate is published as a special supplement to the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society and is edited by D.S. Arndt, M.O. Baringer, and M.R. Johnson. The full report and an online media packet with graphics is available online: BAMS Annual State of the Climate.




Ummmm, you might want to get a more recent report there silly person. It's been superceded by far more accurate data. But you don't do data, do you? No, you do propaganda that's right.
 
You tell me. Couldn't it be even colder? Warming is relative. If as you say the extra CO2 is a good thing, you still have to explain what happens to the extra trapped IR radiation in light of the principle of Conservation of Energy.



Did I say that "the Extra CO2" was a good thing? I don't recall. I don't know that I've ever referred to CO2 as being "extra".

And I don't have to explain anything. All I have to do is observe that there are various factors affecting climate and wonder which of them in combination with the others is doing the most forcing.

You are saying that the extra CO2 is the cause of warming. I say that first, the warming taken over time is not very unusual at all and second that the there so many factors affecting climate that singling one out as the primary one, assuming that factor is not the Sun, requires a whole lot oF proving.

If anyone were to say that the Sun is the primary driver of Global Warming, I would whole heartedly agree.

You are the one saying that you have the answer. All I'm asking of you is proof. You are welocm to present it at your leisure.

You mentioned an increase in CO2. That's the "extra" I'm talking about. Extra CO2 leads to extra trapped IR, leads to an increased amount of re-emitedd IR heading towards earth. That's what I'm talking about when I say the skeptics/deniers ignore the Conservation of Energy question.





And yet, still, the Vostock ice cores show that 1000 year period with two cycles of warming and cooling with no alteration of tghe CO2 levels. Interesting how that works and how you don't address that well known fact.
 
Did I say that "the Extra CO2" was a good thing? I don't recall. I don't know that I've ever referred to CO2 as being "extra".

And I don't have to explain anything. All I have to do is observe that there are various factors affecting climate and wonder which of them in combination with the others is doing the most forcing.

You are saying that the extra CO2 is the cause of warming. I say that first, the warming taken over time is not very unusual at all and second that the there so many factors affecting climate that singling one out as the primary one, assuming that factor is not the Sun, requires a whole lot oF proving.

If anyone were to say that the Sun is the primary driver of Global Warming, I would whole heartedly agree.

You are the one saying that you have the answer. All I'm asking of you is proof. You are welocm to present it at your leisure.

You mentioned an increase in CO2. That's the "extra" I'm talking about. Extra CO2 leads to extra trapped IR, leads to an increased amount of re-emitedd IR heading towards earth. That's what I'm talking about when I say the skeptics/deniers ignore the Conservation of Energy question.

And yet, still, the Vostock ice cores show that 1000 year period with two cycles of warming and cooling with no alteration of tghe CO2 levels. Interesting how that works and how you don't address that well known fact.

Have done so repeatedly. Natural fluctuations. You know, the thing you say I forget, but turns out to only be an argument of convenience for you! How about telling us about that Conservation of Energy bugaboo without constantly trying to distract us with nonsense, until we forget you never answered the question?
 
You mentioned an increase in CO2. That's the "extra" I'm talking about. Extra CO2 leads to extra trapped IR, leads to an increased amount of re-emitedd IR heading towards earth. That's what I'm talking about when I say the skeptics/deniers ignore the Conservation of Energy question.

And yet, still, the Vostock ice cores show that 1000 year period with two cycles of warming and cooling with no alteration of tghe CO2 levels. Interesting how that works and how you don't address that well known fact.

Have done so repeatedly. Natural fluctuations. You know, the thing you say I forget, but turns out to only be an argument of convenience for you! How about telling us about that Conservation of Energy bugaboo without constantly trying to distract us with nonsense, until we forget you never answered the question?





Wow, so what you're telling me is that natural cycles are the primary driver of global temps? Is that what you're saying?
 
You simply don't get it wirebender. I am sorry, but this is all way over your head and I doubt that you will ever get it.

Mumble much to yourself these days?

in your house analogy- if you place bookshelves, furniture, draperies, etc on outside walls then the heat will escape more slowly and the equilibrium temperature for a fixed amount of heat input will go up.

The heat will never go up unless more energy is brought into the system ian. Cooling more slowly does not equal warmer no matter how you slice it.

in the same fashion that you claim clothes make a person colder,

It isn't a claim ian, it is a proven, observable fact predicted by the second law of thermodynamics. Sorry you can't understand.

you claim that CO2 cools the surface.

CO2 serves to scatter IR. That can't be construed as a means to increase temperature in any fashion.

your logic and understanding of physical processes is distorted by your contrarian need to go against accepted scientific principles. you suffer from the same religious fervor that many AGW catatrophists do, just in the opposiite direction.

Sorry ian, but it isn't me who must distort and torture the laws of physics in an attempt to make them jibe with my beliefs.
 
Have done so repeatedly. Natural fluctuations. You know, the thing you say I forget, but turns out to only be an argument of convenience for you! How about telling us about that Conservation of Energy bugaboo without constantly trying to
distract us with nonsense, until we forget you never answered the question?

And how is the present warming different from the past "natural" warming other than the fact that the "natural" warming was of a greater magnitude and came on more quickly than the "manmade" warming? Are you perhaps saying that the CO2 we put into the air is buffering the natural warming?
 
That's your delusion and denier cult dogma but the climate scientists of the world disagree with your ignorant nonsense.

That's another of your dumbass denier cult delusions. 2010 is tied with 2005 as the hottest year on record in the last 160 years. World average temperatures have continued to rise over the last decade.


Climate scientists expect some year to year variability due to El Nino/La Nina changes and other factors. The long term trend is still towards increasing temperatures and this trend is being driven by the increasing CO2.
So is CO2 a weak constituent factor or the primary driver of climate.
As far as the current abrupt warming trend goes, scientists are very clear that it is the extra 40% of fossil carbon that mankind has added to the atmosphere that is causing it.




It seems you are saying that the impact of CO2 is nullified by almost anything else.
It seems that you are incapable of comprehending simple English 'cause, dude, that is not at all what I said. There are other factors, such as El Nino/La Nina, that drive the year to year variability and that variability can cause world average temperatures to vary slightly within the overall trend of rising temperatures. So some years wind up being cooler than some of the immediately preceding years but still hotter than the previous averages spanning 40 years or so.


I understand what you said and what it means. You, apparently, only understand what you said.

Our planet warmed by about .4 degrees between the year zero and the 1000. Between the year 1000 and the year 2000 our world warmed by about .3 degrees.

I don't doubt the theory proposed by the AGW crowd because I disagree with the science. I doubt it because the effect you predict based on the cause you cite is simply not there.

Between the year 2000 and now, we have flat or decreasing temperatures.

Your case rests on the effect of warming following the cause of increased CO2. We have the highest CO2 in this interglacial and yet we are 1 degree cooler than the high in this interglacial, the rate of warming is slowing comparing one millennium to the last and we are recently not warming at all.

Where is your proof? If it is warming then it should be, well, warmer and that warming should be accelerating, not slowing.
 
Is IR photons the same thing as IR radiation? I Google IR photons and find nothing.

konradv doesn't exactly get photons. He, like some others on the board believe that photons are these tiny little free agents zipping around the universe somehow unconstrained by the laws of physics and not merely the smallest possible bit of energy in a given EM field which is tightly bound by the laws of physics.



Hi! King of density here.

I didn't get the answer from what you said. Is IR radiation and IR Photons the same thing?
 
What abrupt warming? Last I saw the temps have stalled for the last decade and are possibly going to be dropping. So, if the temps do indeed drop, what does that say about CO2 as a driver?

Oh, walleyed, your denier cult delusions are occasionally humorous but mostly just sad. You are such a confused and demented little retard, it just hurts to watch you continually make such a fool out of yourself.

NOAA: Past Decade Warmest on Record According to Scientists in 48 Countries
Earth has been growing warmer for more than fifty years
NOAA

July 28, 2010
(government publication - free to reproduce)

The 2009 State of the Climate report released today draws on data for 10 key climate indicators that all point to the same finding: the scientific evidence that our world is warming is unmistakable. More than 300 scientists from 160 research groups in 48 countries contributed to the report, which confirms that the past decade was the warmest on record and that the Earth has been growing warmer over the last 50 years.

Based on comprehensive data from multiple sources, the report defines 10 measurable planet-wide features used to gauge global temperature changes. The relative movement of each of these indicators proves consistent with a warming world. Seven indicators are rising: air temperature over land, sea-surface temperature, air temperature over oceans, sea level, ocean heat, humidity and tropospheric temperature in the “active-weather” layer of the atmosphere closest to the Earth’s surface. Three indicators are declining: Arctic sea ice, glaciers and spring snow cover in the Northern hemisphere.

“For the first time, and in a single compelling comparison, the analysis brings together multiple observational records from the top of the atmosphere to the depths of the ocean,” said Jane Lubchenco, Ph.D., under secretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere and NOAA administrator. “The records come from many institutions worldwide. They use data collected from diverse sources, including satellites, weather balloons, weather stations, ships, buoys and field surveys. These independently produced lines of evidence all point to the same conclusion: our planet is warming,”


warmingindicators.jpg

Ten Indicators of a Warming World. (Credit: NOAA)

The report emphasizes that human society has developed for thousands of years under one climatic state, and now a new set of climatic conditions are taking shape. These conditions are consistently warmer, and some areas are likely to see more extreme events like severe drought, torrential rain and violent storms.

“Despite the variability caused by short-term changes, the analysis conducted for this report illustrates why we are so confident the world is warming,” said Peter Stott, Ph.D., contributor to the report and head of Climate Monitoring and Attribution of the United Kingdom Met Office Hadley Centre. “When we look at air temperature and other indicators of climate, we see highs and lows in the data from year to year because of natural variability. Understanding climate change requires looking at the longer-term record. When we follow decade-to-decade trends using multiple data sets and independent analyses from around the world, we see clear and unmistakable signs of a warming world.”

While year-to-year changes in temperature often reflect natural climatic variations such as El Niño/La Niña events, changes in average temperature from decade-to-decade reveal long-term trends such as global warming. Each of the last three decades has been much warmer than the decade before. At the time, the 1980s was the hottest decade on record. In the 1990s, every year was warmer than the average of the previous decade. The 2000s were warmer still.

“The temperature increase of one degree Fahrenheit over the past 50 years may seem small, but it has already altered our planet,” said Deke Arndt, co-editor of the report and chief of the Climate Monitoring Branch of NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center. “Glaciers and sea ice are melting, heavy rainfall is intensifying and heat waves are more common. And, as the new report tells us, there is now evidence that over 90 percent of warming over the past 50 years has gone into our ocean.”

More and more, Americans are witnessing the impacts of climate change in their own backyards, including sea-level rise, longer growing seasons, changes in river flows, increases in heavy downpours, earlier snowmelt and extended ice-free seasons in our waters. People are searching for relevant and timely information about these changes to inform decision-making about virtually all aspects of their lives. To help keep citizens and businesses informed about climate, NOAA created the Climate Portal at NOAA Climate Services. The portal features a short video that summarizes some of the highlights of the State of the Climate Report.

State of the Climate is published as a special supplement to the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society and is edited by D.S. Arndt, M.O. Baringer, and M.R. Johnson. The full report and an online media packet with graphics is available online: BAMS Annual State of the Climate.




Ummmm, you might want to get a more recent report there silly person. It's been superceded by far more accurate data. But you don't do data, do you? No, you do propaganda that's right.

Nice flap-yap with not a single item to back it up. What a liar you are, Walleyes. Antarctica at the equator only 100 million years ago:lol:
 
You tell me. Couldn't it be even colder? Warming is relative. If as you say the extra CO2 is a good thing, you still have to explain what happens to the extra trapped IR radiation in light of the principle of Conservation of Energy.



Did I say that "the Extra CO2" was a good thing? I don't recall. I don't know that I've ever referred to CO2 as being "extra".

And I don't have to explain anything. All I have to do is observe that there are various factors affecting climate and wonder which of them in combination with the others is doing the most forcing.

You are saying that the extra CO2 is the cause of warming. I say that first, the warming taken over time is not very unusual at all and second that the there so many factors affecting climate that singling one out as the primary one, assuming that factor is not the Sun, requires a whole lot oF proving.

If anyone were to say that the Sun is the primary driver of Global Warming, I would whole heartedly agree.

You are the one saying that you have the answer. All I'm asking of you is proof. You are welocm to present it at your leisure.

You mentioned an increase in CO2. That's the "extra" I'm talking about. Extra CO2 leads to extra trapped IR, leads to an increased amount of re-emitedd IR heading towards earth. That's what I'm talking about when I say the skeptics/deniers ignore the Conservation of Energy question.



I've posted the link to this numerous times and if you demand I find it again, I'll try.

There are several sources that say that the effect of each identical increase in the ppm of CO2 in the air has a decreasing impact on the climate. The comparison has been made to painting a window pain which blocks much of the light from passing through. Following that another coat of paint is applied and then another and so on.

Another analogy compares this to covering a window with a drape and then another and then another.

The comparison of course is adding to the CO2 which prevents some of the IR from escaping into space.

In either analogy the darkening effect of each succeeding layer is reduced from the previous. At some point, the effect is not noticeable.

In the case of CO2, I have read that 20 ppm is enough to prevent snowball Earth. Each Succeeding addition of 20 ppm would have a decreasing amount of warming impact. At this point, increasing CO2 should have almost no impact and what do you know? It hasn't much.

Anyway, back to "extra" CO2. In all of nature, things increase and decrease. "Extra" is a notion carried by people who think that there is a perfect balance that must be maintained. When CO2 increases, nature will adapt to consume that by providing some thing or things that will consume it.

The illusion that the amount of CO2 was correct was only because nature had made the adaptation and the system was in balance. This is not a magic or preordained thing. It just happens. Lots of grass? Lots of buffalo. Plenty of wetlands? Plenty of ducks.

Lots of sailors? Gentlemen's clubs.

Ain't nature just great?
 
That's your delusion and denier cult dogma but the climate scientists of the world disagree with your ignorant nonsense.

That's another of your dumbass denier cult delusions. 2010 is tied with 2005 as the hottest year on record in the last 160 years. World average temperatures have continued to rise over the last decade.


Climate scientists expect some year to year variability due to El Nino/La Nina changes and other factors. The long term trend is still towards increasing temperatures and this trend is being driven by the increasing CO2.

So is CO2 a weak constituent factor or the primary driver of climate.

It seems you are saying that the impact of CO2 is nullified by almost anything else.

CO2 is one of the factors. Calling anything "primary" except the sun, is a red-herring. CO2 isn't nullified OR a primary driver. It's just one constituent, but one that we have an influence on.



So, exactly, what is the amount of impact that CO2 has as a constituent factor?

More specifically what is the impact of the portion of the CO2 in the air that is contributed by Man?

I suppose both would be useful. Enlighten us.
 
Did I say that "the Extra CO2" was a good thing? I don't recall. I don't know that I've ever referred to CO2 as being "extra".

And I don't have to explain anything. All I have to do is observe that there are various factors affecting climate and wonder which of them in combination with the others is doing the most forcing.

You are saying that the extra CO2 is the cause of warming. I say that first, the warming taken over time is not very unusual at all and second that the there so many factors affecting climate that singling one out as the primary one, assuming that factor is not the Sun, requires a whole lot oF proving.

If anyone were to say that the Sun is the primary driver of Global Warming, I would whole heartedly agree.

You are the one saying that you have the answer. All I'm asking of you is proof. You are welocm to present it at your leisure.

You mentioned an increase in CO2. That's the "extra" I'm talking about. Extra CO2 leads to extra trapped IR, leads to an increased amount of re-emitedd IR heading towards earth. That's what I'm talking about when I say the skeptics/deniers ignore the Conservation of Energy question.



I've posted the link to this numerous times and if you demand I find it again, I'll try.

There are several sources that say that the effect of each identical increase in the ppm of CO2 in the air has a decreasing impact on the climate. The comparison has been made to painting a window pain which blocks much of the light from passing through. Following that another coat of paint is applied and then another and so on.

Another analogy compares this to covering a window with a drape and then another and then another.

The comparison of course is adding to the CO2 which prevents some of the IR from escaping into space.

In either analogy the darkening effect of each succeeding layer is reduced from the previous. At some point, the effect is not noticeable.

In the case of CO2, I have read that 20 ppm is enough to prevent snowball Earth. Each Succeeding addition of 20 ppm would have a decreasing amount of warming impact. At this point, increasing CO2 should have almost no impact and what do you know? It hasn't much.

Anyway, back to "extra" CO2. In all of nature, things increase and decrease. "Extra" is a notion carried by people who think that there is a perfect balance that must be maintained. When CO2 increases, nature will adapt to consume that by providing some thing or things that will consume it.

The illusion that the amount of CO2 was correct was only because nature had made the adaptation and the system was in balance. This is not a magic or preordained thing. It just happens. Lots of grass? Lots of buffalo. Plenty of wetlands? Plenty of ducks.

Lots of sailors? Gentlemen's clubs.

Ain't nature just great?

Code, this "I have read" sucks. Cite your sources or be considered in the same light as the other intellectual lightweights that believe we should give credance to something without the slightest verification.

A drop from 280 ppm to 180 ppm puts continental glaciers in the US.
 
You mentioned an increase in CO2. That's the "extra" I'm talking about. Extra CO2 leads to extra trapped IR, leads to an increased amount of re-emitedd IR heading towards earth. That's what I'm talking about when I say the skeptics/deniers ignore the Conservation of Energy question.



I've posted the link to this numerous times and if you demand I find it again, I'll try.

There are several sources that say that the effect of each identical increase in the ppm of CO2 in the air has a decreasing impact on the climate. The comparison has been made to painting a window pain which blocks much of the light from passing through. Following that another coat of paint is applied and then another and so on.

Another analogy compares this to covering a window with a drape and then another and then another.

The comparison of course is adding to the CO2 which prevents some of the IR from escaping into space.

In either analogy the darkening effect of each succeeding layer is reduced from the previous. At some point, the effect is not noticeable.

In the case of CO2, I have read that 20 ppm is enough to prevent snowball Earth. Each Succeeding addition of 20 ppm would have a decreasing amount of warming impact. At this point, increasing CO2 should have almost no impact and what do you know? It hasn't much.

Anyway, back to "extra" CO2. In all of nature, things increase and decrease. "Extra" is a notion carried by people who think that there is a perfect balance that must be maintained. When CO2 increases, nature will adapt to consume that by providing some thing or things that will consume it.

The illusion that the amount of CO2 was correct was only because nature had made the adaptation and the system was in balance. This is not a magic or preordained thing. It just happens. Lots of grass? Lots of buffalo. Plenty of wetlands? Plenty of ducks.

Lots of sailors? Gentlemen's clubs.

Ain't nature just great?

Code, this "I have read" sucks. Cite your sources or be considered in the same light as the other intellectual lightweights that believe we should give credance to something without the slightest verification.

A drop from 280 ppm to 180 ppm puts continental glaciers in the US.

Show Code how you do it by bringing up your fraudulent sources, rockhead. :eusa_whistle:
 
The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect

American Institute of Physics

The American Institute of Physics -- Physics Publications and Resources

AGU Position Statement: Human Impacts on Climate

Human Impacts on Climate
Adopted by Council December 2003
Revised and Reaffirmed December 2007

The Earth's climate is now clearly out of balance and is warming. Many components of the climate system—including the temperatures of the atmosphere, land and ocean, the extent of sea ice and mountain glaciers, the sea level, the distribution of precipitation, and the length of seasons—are now changing at rates and in patterns that are not natural and are best explained by the increased atmospheric abundances of greenhouse gases and aerosols generated by human activity during the 20th century. Global average surface temperatures increased on average by about 0.6°C over the period 1956–2006. As of 2006, eleven of the previous twelve years were warmer than any others since 1850. The observed rapid retreat of Arctic sea ice is expected to continue and lead to the disappearance of summertime ice within this century. Evidence from most oceans and all continents except Antarctica shows warming attributable to human activities. Recent changes in many physical and biological systems are linked with this regional climate change. A sustained research effort, involving many AGU members and summarized in the 2007 assessments of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, continues to improve our scientific understanding of the climate.

During recent millennia of relatively stable climate, civilization became established and populations have grown rapidly. In the next 50 years, even the lower limit of impending climate change—an additional global mean warming of 1°C above the last decade—is far beyond the range of climate variability experienced during the past thousand years and poses global problems in planning for and adapting to it. Warming greater than 2°C above 19th century levels is projected to be disruptive, reducing global agricultural productivity, causing widespread loss of biodiversity, and—if sustained over centuries—melting much of the Greenland ice sheet with ensuing rise in sea level of several meters. If this 2°C warming is to be avoided, then our net annual emissions of CO2 must be reduced by more than 50 percent within this century. With such projections, there are many sources of scientific uncertainty, but none are known that could make the impact of climate change inconsequential. Given the uncertainty in climate projections, there can be surprises that may cause more dramatic disruptions than anticipated from the most probable model projections.

With climate change, as with ozone depletion, the human footprint on Earth is apparent. The cause of disruptive climate change, unlike ozone depletion, is tied to energy use and runs through modern society. Solutions will necessarily involve all aspects of society. Mitigation strategies and adaptation responses will call for collaborations across science, technology, industry, and government. Members of the AGU, as part of the scientific community, collectively have special responsibilities: to pursue research needed to understand it; to educate the public on the causes, risks, and hazards; and to communicate clearly and objectively with those who can implement policies to shape future climate.

Of course, for people like yourself, any real scientific source is fraudulent. After all, what the hell to them pointy headed scientists really know?
 
The Carbon Dioxide Greenhouse Effect

American Institute of Physics

The American Institute of Physics -- Physics Publications and Resources

AGU Position Statement: Human Impacts on Climate

Human Impacts on Climate
Adopted by Council December 2003
Revised and Reaffirmed December 2007

The Earth's climate is now clearly out of balance and is warming. Many components of the climate system—including the temperatures of the atmosphere, land and ocean, the extent of sea ice and mountain glaciers, the sea level, the distribution of precipitation, and the length of seasons—are now changing at rates and in patterns that are not natural and are best explained by the increased atmospheric abundances of greenhouse gases and aerosols generated by human activity during the 20th century. Global average surface temperatures increased on average by about 0.6°C over the period 1956–2006. As of 2006, eleven of the previous twelve years were warmer than any others since 1850. The observed rapid retreat of Arctic sea ice is expected to continue and lead to the disappearance of summertime ice within this century. Evidence from most oceans and all continents except Antarctica shows warming attributable to human activities. Recent changes in many physical and biological systems are linked with this regional climate change. A sustained research effort, involving many AGU members and summarized in the 2007 assessments of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, continues to improve our scientific understanding of the climate.

During recent millennia of relatively stable climate, civilization became established and populations have grown rapidly. In the next 50 years, even the lower limit of impending climate change—an additional global mean warming of 1°C above the last decade—is far beyond the range of climate variability experienced during the past thousand years and poses global problems in planning for and adapting to it. Warming greater than 2°C above 19th century levels is projected to be disruptive, reducing global agricultural productivity, causing widespread loss of biodiversity, and—if sustained over centuries—melting much of the Greenland ice sheet with ensuing rise in sea level of several meters. If this 2°C warming is to be avoided, then our net annual emissions of CO2 must be reduced by more than 50 percent within this century. With such projections, there are many sources of scientific uncertainty, but none are known that could make the impact of climate change inconsequential. Given the uncertainty in climate projections, there can be surprises that may cause more dramatic disruptions than anticipated from the most probable model projections.

With climate change, as with ozone depletion, the human footprint on Earth is apparent. The cause of disruptive climate change, unlike ozone depletion, is tied to energy use and runs through modern society. Solutions will necessarily involve all aspects of society. Mitigation strategies and adaptation responses will call for collaborations across science, technology, industry, and government. Members of the AGU, as part of the scientific community, collectively have special responsibilities: to pursue research needed to understand it; to educate the public on the causes, risks, and hazards; and to communicate clearly and objectively with those who can implement policies to shape future climate.

Of course, for people like yourself, any real scientific source is fraudulent. After all, what the hell to them pointy headed scientists really know?

Those scientists know who's paying for their Volvo's....got appease the coffers ya know.
Scientists are unbias in their research, huh, rockhead? :lol:
 
Real fucking dumb, old boy. We are speaking of scientists from every nation and political system in the world. A consensus on AGW so strong that there is not a scientific society in the world, not even in Outer Slobovia, that states that AGW is not real.

All you have is denigration of good men and women doing a job for which many of them recieve less income than I do as a millwright in a steel mill.
 
Oh, walleyed, your denier cult delusions are occasionally humorous but mostly just sad. You are such a confused and demented little retard, it just hurts to watch you continually make such a fool out of yourself.

NOAA: Past Decade Warmest on Record According to Scientists in 48 Countries
Earth has been growing warmer for more than fifty years
NOAA

July 28, 2010
(government publication - free to reproduce)

The 2009 State of the Climate report released today draws on data for 10 key climate indicators that all point to the same finding: the scientific evidence that our world is warming is unmistakable. More than 300 scientists from 160 research groups in 48 countries contributed to the report, which confirms that the past decade was the warmest on record and that the Earth has been growing warmer over the last 50 years.

Based on comprehensive data from multiple sources, the report defines 10 measurable planet-wide features used to gauge global temperature changes. The relative movement of each of these indicators proves consistent with a warming world. Seven indicators are rising: air temperature over land, sea-surface temperature, air temperature over oceans, sea level, ocean heat, humidity and tropospheric temperature in the “active-weather” layer of the atmosphere closest to the Earth’s surface. Three indicators are declining: Arctic sea ice, glaciers and spring snow cover in the Northern hemisphere.

“For the first time, and in a single compelling comparison, the analysis brings together multiple observational records from the top of the atmosphere to the depths of the ocean,” said Jane Lubchenco, Ph.D., under secretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere and NOAA administrator. “The records come from many institutions worldwide. They use data collected from diverse sources, including satellites, weather balloons, weather stations, ships, buoys and field surveys. These independently produced lines of evidence all point to the same conclusion: our planet is warming,”


warmingindicators.jpg

Ten Indicators of a Warming World. (Credit: NOAA)

The report emphasizes that human society has developed for thousands of years under one climatic state, and now a new set of climatic conditions are taking shape. These conditions are consistently warmer, and some areas are likely to see more extreme events like severe drought, torrential rain and violent storms.

“Despite the variability caused by short-term changes, the analysis conducted for this report illustrates why we are so confident the world is warming,” said Peter Stott, Ph.D., contributor to the report and head of Climate Monitoring and Attribution of the United Kingdom Met Office Hadley Centre. “When we look at air temperature and other indicators of climate, we see highs and lows in the data from year to year because of natural variability. Understanding climate change requires looking at the longer-term record. When we follow decade-to-decade trends using multiple data sets and independent analyses from around the world, we see clear and unmistakable signs of a warming world.”

While year-to-year changes in temperature often reflect natural climatic variations such as El Niño/La Niña events, changes in average temperature from decade-to-decade reveal long-term trends such as global warming. Each of the last three decades has been much warmer than the decade before. At the time, the 1980s was the hottest decade on record. In the 1990s, every year was warmer than the average of the previous decade. The 2000s were warmer still.

“The temperature increase of one degree Fahrenheit over the past 50 years may seem small, but it has already altered our planet,” said Deke Arndt, co-editor of the report and chief of the Climate Monitoring Branch of NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center. “Glaciers and sea ice are melting, heavy rainfall is intensifying and heat waves are more common. And, as the new report tells us, there is now evidence that over 90 percent of warming over the past 50 years has gone into our ocean.”

More and more, Americans are witnessing the impacts of climate change in their own backyards, including sea-level rise, longer growing seasons, changes in river flows, increases in heavy downpours, earlier snowmelt and extended ice-free seasons in our waters. People are searching for relevant and timely information about these changes to inform decision-making about virtually all aspects of their lives. To help keep citizens and businesses informed about climate, NOAA created the Climate Portal at NOAA Climate Services. The portal features a short video that summarizes some of the highlights of the State of the Climate Report.

State of the Climate is published as a special supplement to the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society and is edited by D.S. Arndt, M.O. Baringer, and M.R. Johnson. The full report and an online media packet with graphics is available online: BAMS Annual State of the Climate.




Ummmm, you might want to get a more recent report there silly person. It's been superceded by far more accurate data. But you don't do data, do you? No, you do propaganda that's right.

Nice flap-yap with not a single item to back it up. What a liar you are, Walleyes. Antarctica at the equator only 100 million years ago:lol:





Ahh you're right, it was in the 70-80 degree's of lat 100 million years ago. My memory is going!
 

Forum List

Back
Top