GOP Senators to Bush: Time's Up

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by DeadCanDance, Jun 26, 2007.

  1. DeadCanDance
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    DeadCanDance Senior Member

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    GOP Senators Back Lugar's Call For Iraq Withdrawal...Warner: “I Hail What He Did”...Voinovich: US Needs “Gradual Military Disengagement"…Sessions: Troop Levels Should Be Reduced “As Soon As It Is Realistic”



    Voinovich calls for gradual withdrawal from Iraq

    "Following up on comments by Sen. Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), Republican Sen. George Voinovich (Ohio) called today for President Bush to begin planning for a gradual withdrawal of U.S. combat forces from Iraq.".......


    http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0607/Voinovich_calls_for_gradual_withdrawal_from_Iraq.html
     
  2. actsnoblemartin
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    actsnoblemartin I love Andrea & April

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    if the surge doesnt work, i might agree with you, september will have the report. Bottom Line: im not willing to let americans die for iraqis, when iraqis would rather slit each others throats, like the religion of peace has been doing for the last thousand years.

     
  3. Bern80
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    Bern80 Gold Member

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    Probably won't be the last either. More and more people are simply getting tired of this. It's hard to see an end in site. Unfortunately that's the very reason I think it is ethically wrong on some level to simply leave.
     
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  4. actsnoblemartin
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    actsnoblemartin I love Andrea & April

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    on some level you are completely right, but at the end of the day, its the iraqis responsibility to behave like adults, and not like children, and if they refuse to take the opportunity offered and accepted, not just with passive niety, but with passionate arrousal, then at some point, we must say to them, up yours man :p. or you make your bed, you lie in it.

    They refuse to help, they can live in s***

     
  5. DeadCanDance
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    DeadCanDance Senior Member

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    This is a civil war. A very complex one. There's nothing that 50k, 100k, or 200k american soldiers are going to do to significantly effect the outcome. It's up to the iraqis to sort it out.

    I'm not even sure what it means that the surge "works", or not. What is the definition of "working". At best, the splurge will reduce violence in a few areas...or the violence will just shift over to other areas. This civil war is beyond the control of the US Military to have much lasting influence over.
     
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  6. actsnoblemartin
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    actsnoblemartin I love Andrea & April

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    What I would like to know is, how do we know for 100% fact, that their is a full blown civil war.

    how do we know that 50-200 more troops can do nothing about it? and that as you say, we have no chance of having any influence I believe is how you put it?.

    Are you prepared, to hand iraq, with its rich oil reserves over to either al queda or iran, assumming, iraqis just fight 100 years war, and kill each other off?

    Remember, im not completely opposed to leaving, or staying, as i said, im very conflicted right now, by the fact that, the mission was noble, in my eyes, but how many dead us soldiers, while iraqies do nothing to help us, does it take for us too see, maybe, just maybe we cant win, or maybe im an idiot, and we still can win?

    im passionate, I didnt say i wasnt wrong.
     
  7. maineman
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    maineman BANNED

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    what, exactly, would you have more troops DO? Do you think that they can make sunnis and shiites love one another? DO you think that sending in a bunch more American youth to serve as cannon fodder will somehow make the majority shiite population forget about what the ba'athists did to them? Do you think that more Americans in harm's way will make those same shiiites any less aligned with Iran? Even if, by some miracle, Maliki's government can somehow meet the benchmarks that Bush previously set down for them (and is now backing away from) do you honestly think that it will not devolve into a full fledged civil war the minute we finally DO leave? Do you honestly think that we are accomplishing anything of beneficial substance by continuing to train the Iraqi military and police force and that the incremental training we provide them will not be used to more efficiently slaughter one another the minute we are gone?

    Do you need an historical precedent for people putting some subset of their country ahead of their country? Try this: Robert E. Lee, West Point, class of 1829.
     
  8. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    :wtf:

    Robert E Lee did put his state ahead of the Nation; however, he also put his belief in state's rights ahead of Federal omnipotence. I would tend to say that those who fought for the ideal of state's rights, believed they were fighting for the just cause every bit as much as those who fought to preserve the union.

    That isn't addressing all the other reasons people had for the side they chose in the US Civil War. On a purely Constitutional, ideological level, I happen to agree with state's rights over some schmucks in DC making decisions for us that we have no control over once they are in office, and really only a choice between dumb and dumber when it comes to who we are going to send to represent us.

    We have created a monster and allowed it to run amock, and it is consuming us.
     
  9. actsnoblemartin
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    actsnoblemartin I love Andrea & April

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    im completely lost, what are you (gunny) and maineman, talking about"?
     
  10. maineman
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    maineman BANNED

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    I do not disagree. I merely point out that there are plenty of legitimate reasons - and precedent - for the American trained Iraqi army to split apart into effective sectarian militias well trained in killing one another once we depart.
     

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