GOP Healthcare Blunder

[nodoginnafight]

Baloney. If there was no haste, the members of the Senate would be in their hometowns celebrating Christmas

Yes, yes, there is NEVER a ton of work to get through before the holiday break????????

It's NEVER happened before Huh? Unprecedented?

Please.

If they left this paperwork in the in-box they'd be criticized for that too.

"While most Americans are biting their nails, waiting to see what will happen to the U.S. economy, the Congress has found time to take a break for the all important Jewish holiday. If this does not tell you what is most important to our “ruling elite” what will? We lost a Trillion dollars yesterday, the worst loss in history, yet they can take a break to celebrate their Hebrew holiday."

Just more ginned-up BS "outrage" designed to stall in a desperate effort to turn some votes. Just like the vast majority of other ginned-up BS talking points so many on the right are vomitting up these days.

Jeeez - talk about the REAL issues - is it really THAT hard?

suppose it is a matter of perspective. You see the GOP as disseminating misinformation, without specifying what misinformation they are disseminating.

I specifically cited misinformation campaigns. Again, choosing to ignore and pretend otherwise, is a serious blow to credibility.

 

[nodoginnafight]

It's clear that the GOP is trying to re-visit their successful strategy of 1993 - '94 - a show of strength that helped them re-gain the house. They are even churning out the same old script and rhetoric. We'll just have to wait and see if it works for them.

That's the point of the article cited. If you make a power play and win - it's a big boost. If you make a power play and lose - it's a serious setback.

Now, I HATE framing the discussion in purely political terms like that. I'd like to think that good legislation is good for everyone and bad legislation is bad for everyone - REGARDLESS of political affiliation.

But so far, it seems FAR TOO MUCH of the debate on this issue has been purely political. Dems trying to flex their muscles and Republicans squealing just like they did in '93 to try to "hand Obama his Waterloo."

If you've been listening to THAT cfrap - then yeah, you really don't know much about the bill at all but just fall in line with whichever side you are inclined to. But there HAS been significant discussion about the REAL elements of the bill. Sometimes you just have to dig a little deeper than your TV's remote control.

Looks like they may even trot out Newt Gingrich again

Better read the FINE PRINT on that "contract with America" before signing up again......
I think it says something like: "This is a BS propaganda ploy and once elected we reserve the right to wipe our ass with it."

 

[Foxfyre]

Baloney. If there was no haste, the members of the Senate would be in their hometowns celebrating Christmas

Yes, yes, there is NEVER a ton of work to get through before the holiday break????????

It's NEVER happened before Huh? Unprecedented?

Please.

If they left this paperwork in the in-box they'd be criticized for that too.

"While most Americans are biting their nails, waiting to see what will happen to the U.S. economy, the Congress has found time to take a break for the all important Jewish holiday. If this does not tell you what is most important to our “ruling elite” what will? We lost a Trillion dollars yesterday, the worst loss in history, yet they can take a break to celebrate their Hebrew holiday."

Just more ginned-up BS "outrage" designed to stall in a desperate effort to turn some votes. Just like the vast majority of other ginned-up BS talking points so many on the right are vomitting up these days.

Jeeez - talk about the REAL issues - is it really THAT hard.

Congress does not do what it is proud of in the dark of night or when they think most of America isn't paying attention. I don't care what precedent you cite or who did what previously or who was guilty of anything in past events or circumstances. The REAL issue that is being discussed here is a healthcare bill that most Americans, including many with considerable expertise on this subject, believe to be a dangerous and damaging piece of legislation that should not be passed. Is it really THAT hard to talk about THAT?

suppose it is a matter of perspective. You see the GOP as disseminating misinformation, without specifying what misinformation they are disseminating.

I specifically cited misinformation campaigns. Again, choosing to ignore and pretend otherwise, is a serious blow to credibility.

What you specifically said that I responded to and I quote:

I have actually seen a lot of MISINFORMATION (to be charitable) coming from the GOP side of the aisle.

You did not specify misinformation campaigns and still have not specified what misinformation you meant. That tells me you most likely don't know what misinformation you meant and your intent is to say that what the GOP is saying about it is an intentional lie. I don't think you can back that up.

 

[MarcATL]

If it doesn't get done this year. Its. Not. Going. To. Get. Done. Period.

About the hypothetical question you posed had it been a Republican bill. Does the last 8 years come to mind Mr. Hannity?

EVERYTHING that led the country here was rammed down America's throat...all wrapped up in the American flag with talks of patriotism and mixed with an abundance of fear (the color codes.)

Or were you asleep?

Americans were screaming for them to stop, in numbers that DWARFTED the biggest Tea Party yet, but no one listened. In fact, the same media thats kow-towing to this relatively miniscule amount of tea-bagging protesters, were openly mocking the protests during the last 8 years.

But you and your ilk continue to spew the BS that the media is librul.

*SMH*

C'mon man...get serious.

Do you normally exaggerate so much to make a point? (I on occasion do exaggerate for effect, however, so will give you that one.)

But because things weren't done correctly before in your opinion, that is justification for doing them incorrectly now? We deserve to have stuff rammed down our throat now because it was rammed down our throat previously? What kind of logic is that?

You would rather them pass a really bad, destructive, too expensive bill that nobody wants rather than no bill because you think it has to be done now rather than take their time to do a good one? What kind of logic is that?

All this simply reinforces my opinion that it is not the best interests of the American people that is the concern here, but rather the personal agenda of those with the power to do it to us. And I hope with all my heart that we feel justified in throwing them all out of office at the earliest opportunity we have to do that.

What was my exaggeration? Do you mean YOUR exaggeration that its being now RAMMED down our throats, when the FACTS all say that it ISN'T?

I would rather them pass a bill thats BETTER than what we have now, which is TOO expensive and is SWIFTLY DESTROYING what's left of our economy. Even if they only change ONE thing about the current system its an improvement, thats how bad the CURRENT system is. Yet, you and your ilk continue to spew the BS that "America has the best health-care system in the world."

When in REALITY America has the best TECHNOLOGY in health-care in the world, but all of that is for naught if one does not have ACCESS to said technology (read affordable access for the gen. pop.)
After all, what is a country's health-care system if said country's citizens CANNOT afford the ACCESS to it?

You ask what kind of logic is that, when all are your arguments are from the ILLOGICAL deep end of the pool. All your talking-points, ready-made partisan arguments are so transparent its not funny. You spout this false-argument about "nobody wants this bill" as if this "nobody" group is all on the same page. The fanatics on the right (read ALL of the self-proclaimed "Conservatives") NEVER wanted any change, so thats been constant (see this past summer's tea-bagging entertainment BS extravaganza) and the Republicans CONSTANT obstructionism and negative tactics to destroy the valid efforts in the bill for true and decent change for the better. So much so that the bill is now a shadow of what it was ORIGINALLY INTENDED to be by those that REALLY wanted change so its UNACCEPTABLE to them. Bottom line, "everybody's" NOT on the same page. The FACT of the matter is that the MAJORITY of the US population WANTS an IMPROVED system. I don't know where you're getting your information from bub. Well, actually...I can venture to guess. Put down that jug of Kool-Aid dude...seriously. Snap out of it!

 

[nodoginnafight]

You did not specify misinformation campaigns and still have not specified what misinformation you meant.

Yes, I have. Please re-read.
for example:

Congress does not do what it is proud of in the dark of night or when they think most of America isn't paying attention.

As I stated before, a bill that has been working it's way through committee since July (and during daylight hours) does NOT suddenly become an "in the dark, rush-job" on Dec. 22 just because that's when your side realizes you don't have the votes to stop it. Implying otherwise is (to be charitable) pure effluence.

I cited others - check it out.

I cite specifics - you make up bullshit .....
If that's your choice, fine. You have that right in America. Just don't act all surprised when I call it for what it is.

 

[Claudette]

If it doesn't get done this year. Its. Not. Going. To. Get. Done. Period.

About the hypothetical question you posed had it been a Republican bill. Does the last 8 years come to mind Mr. Hannity?

EVERYTHING that led the country here was rammed down America's throat...all wrapped up in the American flag with talks of patriotism and mixed with an abundance of fear (the color codes.)

Or were you asleep?

Americans were screaming for them to stop, in numbers that DWARFTED the biggest Tea Party yet, but no one listened. In fact, the same media thats kow-towing to this relatively miniscule amount of tea-bagging protesters, were openly mocking the protests during the last 8 years.

But you and your ilk continue to spew the BS that the media is librul.

*SMH*

C'mon man...get serious.

Do you normally exaggerate so much to make a point? (I on occasion do exaggerate for effect, however, so will give you that one.)

But because things weren't done correctly before in your opinion, that is justification for doing them incorrectly now? We deserve to have stuff rammed down our throat now because it was rammed down our throat previously? What kind of logic is that?

You would rather them pass a really bad, destructive, too expensive bill that nobody wants rather than no bill because you think it has to be done now rather than take their time to do a good one? What kind of logic is that?

All this simply reinforces my opinion that it is not the best interests of the American people that is the concern here, but rather the personal agenda of those with the power to do it to us. And I hope with all my heart that we feel justified in throwing them all out of office at the earliest opportunity we have to do that.

What was my exaggeration? Do you mean YOUR exaggeration that its being now RAMMED down our throats, when the FACTS all say that it ISN'T?

I would rather them pass a bill thats BETTER than what we have now, which is TOO expensive and is SWIFTLY DESTROYING what's left of our economy. Even if they only change ONE thing about the current system its an improvement, thats how bad the CURRENT system is. Yet, you and your ilk continue to spew the BS that "America has the best health-care system in the world."

When in REALITY America has the best TECHNOLOGY in health-care in the world, but all of that is for naught if one does not have ACCESS to said technology (read affordable access for the gen. pop.)
After all, what is a country's health-care system if said country's citizens CANNOT afford the ACCESS to it?

You ask what kind of logic is that, when all are your arguments are from the ILLOGICAL deep end of the pool. All your talking-points, ready-made partisan arguments are so transparent its not funny. You spout this false-argument about "nobody wants this bill" as if this "nobody" group is all on the same page. The fanatics on the right (read ALL of the self-proclaimed "Conservatives") NEVER wanted any change, so thats been constant (see this past summer's tea-bagging entertainment BS extravaganza) and the Republicans CONSTANT obstructionism and negative tactics to destroy the valid efforts in the bill for true and decent change for the better. So much so that the bill is now a shadow of what it was ORIGINALLY INTENDED to be by those that REALLY wanted change so its UNACCEPTABLE to them. Bottom line, "everybody's" NOT on the same page. The FACT of the matter is that the MAJORITY of the US population WANTS an IMPROVED system. I don't know where you're getting your information from bub. Well, actually...I can venture to guess. Put down that jug of Kool-Aid dude...seriously. Snap out of it!

YOur right about reform. People wanted reform.I just don't think Obamacare is what they were expecting. Does that sound like a talking point??? Mayby I should put my Kool-aid down to.

 

[nodoginnafight]

YOur right about reform. People wanted reform.I just don't think Obamacare is what they were expecting. Does that sound like a talking point??? Mayby I should put my Kool-aid down to.

So, what - in your opinion - are the parts of "Obamacare" that people were not expecting?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Text of H.R.3962 as Placed on Calendar Senate: Affordable Health Care for America Act - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

btw - if folks really are interested in seeing what was introduced. Of course amendments and changes have been proposed so it you want the exact final proposal - you're going to HAVE to pay attention and keep up.

LOL

H.R is House of Representatives, not the Senate

LOLOL

What a marooooon!

LOL

 

[Zoom-boing]

YOur right about reform. People wanted reform.I just don't think Obamacare is what they were expecting. Does that sound like a talking point??? Mayby I should put my Kool-aid down to.

So, what - in your opinion - are the parts of "Obamacare" that people were not expecting?

The mandate comes to mind.

 

[EriktheRed]

And while I hate framing legislation as a "win" for one side and a "loss" for the other - good legislation is a win-win, bad legislation is a lose-lose - it was the overconfident GOP (sound familiar) who presented this as Obama's waterloo. If it passes, much egg to be cleaned from many faces.

It's definitely a victory for the Dems. Only time will tell if it's a pyrrhic one, though.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Text of H.R.3962 as Placed on Calendar Senate: Affordable Health Care for America Act - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

btw - if folks really are interested in seeing what was introduced. Of course amendments and changes have been proposed so it you want the exact final proposal - you're going to HAVE to pay attention and keep up.

LOL

H.R is House of Representatives, not the Senate

LOLOL

What a marooooon!

LOL

too funny - apparently you are not aware of the fact that ALL appropriations bills originate in the House of Representatives and carry the H.R. label into the Senate.

Did you drop out of high school or something?

Isn't it really funny when someone tries to insult someone else's lack of intelligence and in so doing reveals their OWN.

BTW - here's the more useful link - the other gets bogged down when I try to use it.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

 

[Foxfyre]

Text of H.R.3962 as Placed on Calendar Senate: Affordable Health Care for America Act - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress

btw - if folks really are interested in seeing what was introduced. Of course amendments and changes have been proposed so it you want the exact final proposal - you're going to HAVE to pay attention and keep up.

LOL

H.R is House of Representatives, not the Senate

LOLOL

What a marooooon!

LOL

too funny - apparently you are not aware of the fact that ALL appropriations bills originate in the House of Representatives and carry the H.R. label into the Senate.

Did you drop out of high school or something?

Isn't it really funny when someone tries to insult someone else's lack of intelligence and in so doing reveals their OWN.

BTW - here's the more useful link - the other gets bogged down when I try to use it.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

Perhaps you do not know the difference between this legislation and an appropriations bill? Or that the text of the final Senate bill is unlikely to be available for anybody to read until a few hours, maybe a few minutes before the final vote tomorrow? Or that it differs considerably from the House version? Or that even a 400-page amendment introduced just before the cloture vote had not been available for anybody to read before they voted on it?

Do you know what was in the 400-page amendment? Neither do most of them even now.

 

[nodoginnafight]

LOL

H.R is House of Representatives, not the Senate

LOLOL

What a marooooon!

LOL

too funny - apparently you are not aware of the fact that ALL appropriations bills originate in the House of Representatives and carry the H.R. label into the Senate.

Did you drop out of high school or something?

Isn't it really funny when someone tries to insult someone else's lack of intelligence and in so doing reveals their OWN.

BTW - here's the more useful link - the other gets bogged down when I try to use it.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

Perhaps you do not know the difference between this legislation and an appropriations bill? Or that the text of the final Senate bill is unlikely to be available for anybody to read until a few hours, maybe a few minutes before the final vote tomorrow? Or that it differs considerably from the House version? Or that even a 400-page amendment introduced just before the cloture vote had not been available for anybody to read before they voted on it?

Do you know what was in the 400-page amendment? Neither do most of them even now.

The text of the senate bill has been available since mid-November (at least). If you want to keep up with proposed amendments and you can - if you are interested enough to look and keep up. If you aren't - then why should anyone consider your opinion on them credible?
Here's a link to all the amendments offered through 12/22/09.
Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

The initial drafts passed three of the five committees necessary in July.

So the whole "rush job" myth is just that - a myth. A worn-out myth that hacks from BOTH sides try to drag out in a last-ditched (and pathetic) effort to substitute whining (that you DO have) for votes (that you do NOT have).

Another myth is that amendments are unavailable for review. I've posted the link above proving this to be a myth also.
(If you are refering to the 383 page amendment offered by Reid to gain Nelson's endorsement - it was posted last Saturday I believe. Here's the link: http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/managers-amendment.pdf)

So NOW what are you going to try to substitute for votes?

 

[Foxfyre]

too funny - apparently you are not aware of the fact that ALL appropriations bills originate in the House of Representatives and carry the H.R. label into the Senate.

Did you drop out of high school or something?

Isn't it really funny when someone tries to insult someone else's lack of intelligence and in so doing reveals their OWN.

BTW - here's the more useful link - the other gets bogged down when I try to use it.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

Perhaps you do not know the difference between this legislation and an appropriations bill? Or that the text of the final Senate bill is unlikely to be available for anybody to read until a few hours, maybe a few minutes before the final vote tomorrow? Or that it differs considerably from the House version? Or that even a 400-page amendment introduced just before the cloture vote had not been available for anybody to read before they voted on it?

Do you know what was in the 400-page amendment? Neither do most of them even now.

The text of the senate bill has been available since mid-November (at least). If you want to keep up with proposed amendments and you can - if you are interested enough to look and keep up. If you aren't - then why should anyone consider your opinion on them credible?
Here's a link to all the amendments offered through 12/22/09.
Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

The initial drafts passed three of the five committees necessary in July.

So the whole "rush job" myth is just that - a myth. A worn-out myth that hacks from BOTH sides try to drag out in a last-ditched (and pathetic) effort to substitute whining (that you DO have) for votes (that you do NOT have).

Another myth is that amendments are unavailable for review. I've posted the link above proving this to be a myth also.
(If you are refering to the 383 page amendment offered by Reid to gain Nelson's endorsement - it was posted last Saturday I believe. Here's the link: http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/managers-amendment.pdf)

So NOW what are you going to try to substitute for votes?

Try to keep up dear. The spots on this pig are changing so fast not even an ultra high speed camera/recorder could keep up. There have been many changes since the text you linked, and probably at least some of that is no longer applicable. Here is Olympia Snowe's take on it:

"

In less than 24 hours yesterday we get a 400 page amendment that was filed by the Senate Majority Leader. We are scheduled to vote on that major amendment 15 hours from now, at 1 o'clock in the morning, with no opportunity to amendment."

Libertarian Republican: It's Official! All 40 Senate Republicans to Vote Against ObamaCare

 

[beowolfe]

If the dems were so "desperate" for a bipartisan bill, why didn't they bribe Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe or some of other low hanging fruit on the GOP side?

Answer: They didn't give a flying fuck about the holy "bipartisanship".

I'm sure you want to believe that. But recent history paints a really different picture. That's the thing about you guys out there in far rightville. You need glasses, but won't buy them, so you never see clearly.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Try to keep up dear. The spots on this pig are changing so fast not even an ultra high speed camera/recorder could keep up. There have been many changes since the text you linked, and probably at least some of that is no longer applicable. Here is Olympia Snowe's take on it:

LOL - I've posted links to the amendments through 12/22/09 that you were absolutely clueless about (claiming repeatedly no such links existed) and I am the one who needs to "keep up dear."

Take the time and effort to educate yourself and you won't feel in the dark so much.

And all your whiny hysteria STILL changes NOTHING.
The substance of the bill began working through Congress (in daylight and with text available) in July. Yes, obviously there will be modifications up until the time of passage just like EVERY piece of legislation. And just like with EVERY OTHER piece of legislation, the folks on the minority side of the vote are gonna wail and squeal with the exact same verbiage you offer here.

Pure effluence.

I'm no computer genius - ANYONE who cares enough can find this stuff. I've even spoon-fed it to you. Hit the links I provided. THEN offer some MEANINGFUL comments.

 

[nodoginnafight]

If the dems were so "desperate" for a bipartisan bill, why didn't they bribe Susan Collins, Olympia Snowe or some of other low hanging fruit on the GOP side?

Answer: They didn't give a flying fuck about the holy "bipartisanship".

I'm sure you want to believe that. But recent history paints a really different picture. That's the thing about you guys out there in far rightville. You need glasses, but won't buy them, so you never see clearly.

Exactly - just like the "ewww ewww too fast" crap. Clearly demonstrated to be false but re-whined repeatedly.
or "Eeewww ewwwww - the public has no access to the bill...... Oh there's the text. Well eewwww eewww it might change." or "eewwww ewwwww Senate Bills don't have 'H.R.' in the title."

Is the ignorance deliberate? Or is it a political tactic???? Don't know - don't care. Either way it holds no sway.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well for everybody, even those who are desperately holding onto the delusion that there is nothing fishy or rushed about votes on a multi-trillion piece of legislation scheduled in the wee hours of the morning and on Christmas Eve before members are allowed to face their constituencies, I wish you all a Merry Christmas. Let's hope God is in his heaven and all is right with the world.

 

[Foxfyre]

The opening post applauded the Democrats' healthcare bill as a 'staggering accomplishment'. Well let's hope it is staggering enough that it will be scrapped and they'll start over and actually put together a healthcare reform bill that we do need. As for the one the Senate just approved, the more oppressive taxes kick in immediately, but most of the provisions in the bill won't take effect until after the next general election in 2012.

Seems to me there is plenty of time to get it right and accomplish something that Americans actually want. Following are just a very few of the really hot button issues that should be resolved before the American people have this forced upon them, and explains why they wanted this passed BEFORE anybody had a chance to hear face to face from the people back home.

Voters Frown on Health Plan Details - Abortion, Proof of Citizenship, Public Option
Thursday, December 24, 2009

Senate Democrats are celebrating this morning for passing their version of health care reform, but voters still don’t like much of what they see.

At the start of the week, 41% of voters nationwide were in favor of the health care bill, but 55% were opposed. This is the fifth straight week with support for the legislation between 38% and 41%. Rasmussen Report is continuing to track support for the plan on a weekly basis and will have new numbers on Monday morning. Part of the opposition comes from a general skepticism about Congress, rather than specific policy issues.

But there are specific policy issues that also raise challenges as the Democrats try to pass a final version of this legislation in early 2010.

Fifty-four percent (54%) say taxpayer-funded health insurance should be prohibited from covering abortions, up six points from September. The House version of the legislation includes such a prohibition, but the Senate version does not.

Fourteen percent (14%) of U.S. voters say health insurance paid for or subsidized with government funding should be required to cover abortions. Twenty-nine percent (29%) say the legislation should have no requirements one way or the other.

On another hot-button topic, 87% believe that before anyone receives government health care subsidies, they should be required to prove they are legally in the United States. President Obama and congressional Democrats insist the health care plan will not cover illegal immigrants, the legislation does not require proof of citizenship for those seeking taxpayer-funded health care help.

Only eight percent (8%) of voters oppose the requirement for proving that recipients of health care subsidies prove they are in the country legally. Public attitudes on this point have changed little since September.
Voters Frown on Health Plan Details - Abortion, Proof of Citizenship, Public Option - Rasmussen Reports™

So thanks for nothing Mr. President and your cohorts in Congress. But Merry Christmas to you and everybody just the same.