Good guy with a gun saved lives at second NZ mosque.

Discussion in 'Australia' started by justoffal, Mar 15, 2019.

  1. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    You don't know what you are talking about. You have developed a theory in your head, based on pixie dust, and now you think it is accurate....

    Over the last 26 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


    -- gun murder down 49%

    --gun crime down 75%

    --violent crime down 72%

    Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

    Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.
     
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  2. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    You are wrong....

    Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct



    There are roughly 100,000 people shot in the United States yearly, and something over 30,000 die. If this 1/3 vs. 2/3 ratio of deaths to injuries in actual shootings pertains in these DGUs, that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—less some attackers who lost their lives to defenders. This enormous benefit dwarfs, both in human and economic terms, the losses trumpeted by hoplophobes who only choose to see the risk side of the equation.


    ==============

    Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns

    Our man Bruce Krafft — whose posts we dearly miss — did the math back in 2012. Here it is:
    Our fearless leader suggested that I take a look at the flip side of the anti’s latest attack on our freedoms (a recycled strategy from the Clinton-era Public Health model of gun control): the monetary cost of gun violence.
    For example, the Center for American Progress touted the “fact” that the Virginia Tech massacre cost taxpayers $48.2 million (including autopsy costs and a fine against Virginia Tech for failing to get their skates on when the killer started shooting).
    It’s one of the antis’ favorite tricks: cost benefit analysis omitting the benefit side of the equation. So what are the financial benefits of firearm ownership to society? Read on . . .
    In my post Dennis Henigan on Chardon: Clockwork Edition, I did an analysis of how many lives were saved annually in Defensive Gun Uses (DGUs). I used extremely conservative numbers. Now I am going to use some less conservative ones.
    The Kleck-Gertz DGU study estimated that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs a year in the U.S. The Ludwig-Cook study came up with 1.46 million. So let’s split the difference and call it 1.88 million DGUs per year.
    In the K-G article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, 15.7 percent of people who had a DGU reckoned they almost certainly saved a life. Ignoring the ‘probably’ and ‘might have’ saved a life categories for simplicity, 15.7 percent of 1.88 million gives us 295,160 lives saved annually.
    [NB: A number of people have questioned the 15.7 percent stat. Remember: many states regard the mere act of pulling a gun on someone a form of deadly force. In addition, virtually every jurisdiction in the nation requires that an armed self-defender must be in “reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm” before using (or in some places even threatening to use) deadly force.]
    How can we get a dollar figure from 1.88 million defensive gun uses per year? Never fear, faithful reader, we can count on the .gov to calculate everything.
    According to the AZ state government, in February of 2008 a human life was worth $6.5 million. Going to the Inflation Calculator and punching in the numbers gives us a present value of $6.93 million.
    So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.
    Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.
    I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.
    When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”
    Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”
    So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.
     
  3. justoffal
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    justoffal Gold Member

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    Good guy with a gun is the reality you assholes will never understand. Your forefathers of WW2 would piss on you
    Useless pukes. If it wasn't for the guy with the shot gun the death toll would have been
    40 at the other mosque. In your very sexy ion of this story the brave guy is the criminal
    You totally fucked up anthropoid.

    Jo
     
  4. NotfooledbyW
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    NotfooledbyW Gold Member

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    DGS49, post: 22017004,
    When does your score keeping start.

    How many Muslims were killed after the infidels invaded Iraq when Iraqis had not a damn thing to do with 9/11?

    The estimates range from 200,000 to 600,000.

    I don’t exoect you’d be counting a single one of those Iraqi deaths, that your tax dollars paid for and you probably were all in for lightin’ up Baghdad at the time.
     
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  5. NotfooledbyW
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    NotfooledbyW Gold Member

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    Agree. There is no way to determine who qualifies as a good guy with a gun when a gun is legally sold and purchased. If that cannot be determined, then much more so in the case of marketing and selling an AR-15 military style assault rifle to civilians means the probability that a buyer has a much higher potential to intend to be the bad guy with a gun killing as many humans as possible with it.

    We are thus getting into criminal or civil liability by the manufacturer when the weapon of choice for mass murder gets used in real life.

    Who manufactured the Christchurch shooters weapon?

    I hope New Zealand does not have the laws that protect gun manufacturers from lawsuits when these deadly ‘toys’ are sold to the little minded boys that have such a desperate need to play with them.

    Remington is being sued by the Sandy Hook parents because they marketed the AR-15 as a combat weapon to civilians.

    Finally a judge in the US gets it.

    I hope whoever profited off the weapon used in NZ gets ruined for their malicious greed.

    Good guy with a gun my ass.
     
  6. NotfooledbyW
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    NotfooledbyW Gold Member

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    Your tie of the reduction of US gun homicides to the increase in gun carriers is based on Pixie dust - not the PEW Report you linked us to.

    Read the entire report:


    Other factors enter into it and you can easily see that a kind of reverse plateau was reached in 2010 (under Obama) and the level of gun crimes (not counting suicides) has remained constant since then.

    That means several debatable factors such as abortion and aging baby boomers reduced the numbers of young adult lower income males on the streets that are responsible for much of the gun crimes.

    So the increase in gun owners from 2010 to present has had no impact on teducing the gun homicide rate at all.

    And since all the mass shootings since 2010 have not been affected by the rise in gun carriers your bogus theory is busted when it comes to mass shootings like Vegas Sandyhook Parkland and Christchurch.

    One thing in common is the AR15 type assault rifle.

    Your data is not based on that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
  7. justoffal
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    justoffal Gold Member

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    Shove your data up your ass..
    The second amendment is staying put.
    Doesn't matter what sob stories you wanna tell.

    Jo
     
  8. NotfooledbyW
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    NotfooledbyW Gold Member

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    justoffal, post: 22032929
    Didn’t say it wasn’t - ignorant one.
     
  9. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    And you have no idea what you are talking about....

    I have actual research that does show concealed carry helping to lower the crime rate, but that isn't what that Pew Research is about....

    What Pew shows, is that the entire basis of your belief system...that more guns will mean more gun crime, is not true, fact based or based in reality.

    As more Americans own and carry guns from 1996, our gun murder rate did not go up, it went down by almost 50%......and our gun crime went down 75%....the exact opposite of what you guys claim would happen.....the exact opposite, showing that law abiding gun owners who also carry guns, do not increase the gun crime rate.....actual data, actual research, actual real world outcome......
     
  10. 2aguy
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    2aguy Diamond Member

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    And since all the mass shootings since 2010 have not been affected by the rise in gun carriers your bogus theory is busted when it comes to mass shootings like Vegas Sandyhook Parkland and Christchurch.

    And outside of Vegas, they are all gun free zones, mandated by people like you.....which means that law abiding gun owners did not have their legal guns with them, and Vegas was a long range attack from a concealed and fortified position, where he was firing into an unsuspecting crowd of over 22,000 people....

    ....because actual research into armed citizens at the scene of actual mass public shootings shows that they are 94% effective at stopping the attacker and/or reducing the deaths and injuries.....

    Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

    Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.

    Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.



    In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

    We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

    Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

    If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

    If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

    =====

    One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

    As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.
     
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