Good friend closing business after 28 years.

[Unkotare]

Unk, I'll say this nicely.......

I'll say this honestly...


...save your drama-queen bitching for someone who gives a fuck.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Again, I know that is bad for your business, but isn't that what capitalism is all about?

No. That is what blindness is all about.
The most important thing a person does as a citizen of this country is how they spend their money. How you spend your money will either be a benefit to society or detrimental. There is no in between.
A good capitalist recognises that there is always an end game.
We are at a crossroads in this country and only a few can see it.
Our entire financial system is corrupt to the core. Special interest both own and manage at least two branches of our government, including this President.
Our livelihood is going in the wrong direction. Slowly upper-middle class is becoming what middle class once was, and middle class is becoming lower middle class.
This is the high cost of a low price that is below sustainability. The only reason prices are what they are is because we no longer care that slave labor, half starved and forced labor is what it takes. And we welcome it as long as we don't see it.
I too am very disappointed in our nation.

Sounds like you want to do business in Fantasyland. It also sounds like you cooked up this whole story to promote your looney-lefty political/emotional views.

Sounds like you are living in a basement, and from your blather I can see why.
Get a job.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Unkotare, with all due respect, your inability to see the big picture, or think beyond the simplest surface level of every issue never ceases to amaze me.

You mean I don't agree with your emo lefty bullshit? You mean I live in the real world? Yeah, I know.

Lefty? -
I am likely more conservative than you are.
Get a job kid.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Hate to see this. A good friend and colleague bought a business in 1984 that had been in existence since 1952. Between 1984 to 2000 he nearly tripled the business. His revenue last year was half what it was pre-recession.
In February he lost another large account...he can no longer survive.
I talked to him for a good 45 minutes this morning. His words hit home for me, and I bet a lot of you...

"I am so very disappointed in the direction this country has been going for the past 10-15years. For 16 years I provided great service and a consistent product that other businesses needed - and the orders just kept coming in. I would say 80% never even asked a price, they knew we took care of them and that my pricing was fair. In the past 12 years or so little by little it reached the point to where it is today - every single order people want the price up front so they can compare your price to someone else. They call back and ask if we can match a price they got from so and so, they call to see if I can do the job faster at the same time can I work with them on the price? There is no such thing as a fair price anymore. There is only the lowest price. I just can't do it anymore. I am sick to death of this "kill or be killed" environment where the only way you get new business is if you undercut someone else while they are trying to undercut you - all to try and satisfy a client base whose only concern is the price."

Sounds like your friend didn't like competition. It's hard to believe someone had been in business that long and was still so unrealistic. Hmmm...

Unkotare, with all due respect, your inability to see the big picture, or think beyond the simplest surface level of every issue never ceases to amaze me.

I don't think the friend had a problem with competition, the friend had a problem with a world who's sole concern is continually becoming ONLY the transactional price point, and nothing beyond that.

As I mentioned, what many consumers don't realize is that there are intangible and hidden costs that accompany many of the low prices we see in the modern marketplace today. Want to buy cheap food? Well perhaps it costs you less now, but down the road those pesticides that made the plants easier to grow (and hence cheaper) will end up giving you cancer. Want to buy a cheap shirt from Walmart? Great, but just realize that the reason the shirt is so cheap is because some kids in Indonesia working 16 hour days got paid only $0.03 for the shift.

We need to realize that the "price" of things goes beyond simply what it costs you (in dollars) during the time of the transaction.

Iamwhatiseem raised an excellent point, which was in order for capitalism to succeed in the long run, we need good, educated consumers who can make wise decisions when it comes to the products they buy and the companies they support.

If consumers start to only take into consideration the tag price and nothing else, there's a chance that they may end up paying some pretty hefty hidden costs in the long run.

This post is simply encouraging people to think a little bit. I suggest you try for once...

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Thank you...quite sad that, as usual, only about 10% of the population gets it.
Unfortunately almost no one under 40 gets it because they have not experienced America before the big boxes. I am just amazed every I bring this topic up - in comes the usual responses of accusing me of being a leftist (hilarious)..and those who are on the left "this is what capitalism is".
In the meantime our childrens future is eroding from the inside out. So by the time it becomes undeniable - it will be too late.

 

[Unkotare]

Unkotare, with all due respect, your inability to see the big picture, or think beyond the simplest surface level of every issue never ceases to amaze me.

You mean I don't agree with your emo lefty bullshit? You mean I live in the real world? Yeah, I know.

Lefty? -
I am likely more conservative than you are.

Oh yeah, that's just what your 'why is there competition in the free market? waaaaa! why can't we trade in love instead of money? waaaaaaaa! life is unfair! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!' bullshit sounds like. Very conservative.

Put down the bong and stop writing bad fiction.

 

[saveliberty]

Unkotare, you are proving our point. Today so many confuse low price as the only basis for competition. Offering higher quality is also competition. Offering more choices is competition. Better customer service is another. Understanding their is a world economy is only part of it too. There are national and local markets. It is very unwise to not support your local economy.

 

[Katzndogz]

Ohhhh so the friend had a problem with the WORLD. Not with low prices, but the WORLD.

Stop the World, I want to get off!

When people shop price alone and forego quality and service, they come back. They try it for awhile then come back. The friend undoubtably has feelings of betrayal that his customers would try something else. He has no business being in business. He can't take it. He's too personally involved. His feelings are hurt.

 

[KevinWestern]

You mean I don't agree with your emo lefty bullshit? You mean I live in the real world? Yeah, I know.

Lefty? -
I am likely more conservative than you are.

Oh yeah, that's just what your 'why is there competition in the free market? waaaaa! why can't we trade in love instead of money? waaaaaaaa! life is unfair! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!' bullshit sounds like. Very conservative.

Put down the bong and stop writing bad fiction.

As I mentioned earlier, your inability to think about issues beyond the shallowest surface level is incredibly shocking.

I'd say that you're like a child, but that's not fair to kids, who have very creative and vivid imaginations.

Not sure how to describe you....

 

[Unkotare]

Unkotare, you are proving our point. Today so many confuse low price as the only basis for competition. Offering higher quality is also competition. Offering more choices is competition. Better customer service is another. Understanding there is a world economy is only part of it too. There are national and local markets. It is very unwise to not support your local economy.

That's all well and good, but has nothing to do with the consumer still rationally wanting to comparison shop and get the best value for their money. The consumer decides if X degree of better customer service is worth X amount of difference in price, and it doesn't make them 'big meanies!' to do so. Anyone in business for 28 years would surely know this. This 'woe is me, life is unfair!' nonsense doesn't help anyone.

And, I never said anything about devaluing customer service, quality, or choices. Nor did I ever say anything about not supporting the local economy. I'll thank you to not try and put words in my mouth.

 

[Unkotare]

Lefty? -
I am likely more conservative than you are.

Oh yeah, that's just what your 'why is there competition in the free market? waaaaa! why can't we trade in love instead of money? waaaaaaaa! life is unfair! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!' bullshit sounds like. Very conservative.

Put down the bong and stop writing bad fiction.

As I mentioned earlier, your inability to think about issues beyond the shallowest surface level is incredibly shocking.

I'd say that you're like a child, but that's not fair to kids, who have very creative and vivid imaginations.

Not sure how to describe you....

Like a child? A child stomps her feet and screams 'It's not fair!' the way you and some of the other loonies here are. Your lefty emoting isn't 'deep,' it is juvenile and self-indulgent. Go fuck yourself.

 

[saveliberty]

Unkotare, you are proving our point. Today so many confuse low price as the only basis for competition. Offering higher quality is also competition. Offering more choices is competition. Better customer service is another. Understanding there is a world economy is only part of it too. There are national and local markets. It is very unwise to not support your local economy.

That's all well and good, but has nothing to do with the consumer still rationally wanting to comparison shop and get the best value for their money. The consumer decides if X degree of better customer service is worth X amount of difference in price, and it doesn't make them 'big meanies!' to do so. Anyone in business for 28 years would surely know this. This 'woe is me, life is unfair!' nonsense doesn't help anyone.

And, I never said anything about devaluing customer service, quality, or choices. Nor did I ever say anything about not supporting the local economy. I'll thank you to not try and put words in my mouth.

The point was, many people don't even consider these things in their purchase decisionmaking. I also pointed out several ways a business can distinguish itself in the market in another post here.

 

[Unkotare]

Unkotare, you are proving our point. Today so many confuse low price as the only basis for competition. Offering higher quality is also competition. Offering more choices is competition. Better customer service is another. Understanding there is a world economy is only part of it too. There are national and local markets. It is very unwise to not support your local economy.

That's all well and good, but has nothing to do with the consumer still rationally wanting to comparison shop and get the best value for their money. The consumer decides if X degree of better customer service is worth X amount of difference in price, and it doesn't make them 'big meanies!' to do so. Anyone in business for 28 years would surely know this. This 'woe is me, life is unfair!' nonsense doesn't help anyone.

And, I never said anything about devaluing customer service, quality, or choices. Nor did I ever say anything about not supporting the local economy. I'll thank you to not try and put words in my mouth.

The point was, many people don't even consider these things in their purchase decisionmaking.

And that is entirely their choice as the consumer. That is reality. If someone cannot compete in reality then they need to go do something else.

 

[KevinWestern]

Oh yeah, that's just what your 'why is there competition in the free market? waaaaa! why can't we trade in love instead of money? waaaaaaaa! life is unfair! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!' bullshit sounds like. Very conservative.

Put down the bong and stop writing bad fiction.

As I mentioned earlier, your inability to think about issues beyond the shallowest surface level is incredibly shocking.

I'd say that you're like a child, but that's not fair to kids, who have very creative and vivid imaginations.

Not sure how to describe you....

Like a child? A child stomps her feet and screams 'It's not fair!' the way you and some of the other loonies here are. Your lefty emoting isn't 'deep,' it is juvenile and self-indulgent. Go fuck yourself.

The conversation has been primarily about price beyond price tag. If consumers increasingly care less about supporting their local economy, and care less about the consequences of choosing a product or service only based on its price tag, there’s a chance that there will be some much larger “costs” they will have to pay down the road.

This isn’t a conversation denouncing competition, or the concept of capitalism (as you shallowly seem to assume). It’s a conversation that explores some of the dangers of a population that is increasingly becoming more and more disconnected with the community around them, and less concerned about who or what they are giving their money to.

Capitalism will work and thrive under a well-educated, well-informed population who give thought to the choices they make in the marketplace.

However, if we have a population of Unkatores – for example – the consumers would be easily swayed by only price point and surface quality of the product, and nothing beyond that. The slimiest of companies who undercut and squeeze would prevail, and the brightest companies who take care of the community and the environment, would end up failing, as their deeds would go unnoticed to the ignorant population...

..but on the bright side, there'd be no more 'lefties' anymore, right?


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[iamwhatiseem]

Note to self...Unkotare is a troll...noted.
I suggest we let Unk troll away and ignore him/her...surely no one is this simple-minded...wait..

 

[iamwhatiseem]

As I mentioned earlier, your inability to think about issues beyond the shallowest surface level is incredibly shocking.

I'd say that you're like a child, but that's not fair to kids, who have very creative and vivid imaginations.

Not sure how to describe you....

Like a child? A child stomps her feet and screams 'It's not fair!' the way you and some of the other loonies here are. Your lefty emoting isn't 'deep,' it is juvenile and self-indulgent. Go fuck yourself.

The conversation has been primarily about price beyond price tag. If consumers increasingly care less about supporting their local economy, and care less about the consequences of choosing a product or service only based on its price tag, there’s a chance that there will be some much larger “costs” they will have to pay down the road.

This isn’t a conversation denouncing competition, or the concept of capitalism (as you shallowly seem to assume). It’s a conversation that explores some of the dangers of a population that is increasingly becoming more and more disconnected with the community around them, and less concerned about who or what they are giving their money to.

Capitalism will work and thrive under a well-educated, well-informed population who give thought to the choices they make in the marketplace.

However, if we have a population of Unkatores – for example – the consumers would be easily swayed by only price point and surface quality of the product, and nothing beyond that. The slimiest of companies who undercut and squeeze would prevail, and the brightest companies who take care of the community and the environment, would end up failing, as their deeds would go unnoticed to the ignorant population...

..but on the bright side, there'd be no more 'lefties' anymore, right?


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Very well put - Bravo
I would rep you for this post...but I see I already did earlier.

 

[saveliberty]

I run through a number of shovels every year. The ones made in China (most of them) are made of Chinese steel. Big surprise there huh? What I have found is the metal deforms faster and the fiberglass handles snap easier than the USA variety. I "save" money with higher quality shovels.

 

[Foxfyre]

It usually doesn't work that way though. You are more likely to have 3 vendors selling an item at $7.00 versus 300 vendors selling an item at $3.50. The more competition there is the more beneficial to the buyer. And you won't have 300 vendors selling an item at $3.50 unless they are making a profit at that amount.

I don't think I agree with you on this. Perhaps if there was the case of a monopoly, the price might be higher than the 300 vendors, but as long as there's two or three HUGE companies competing against each other, you can be sure that the price is going to be driven down to just about as low as it can possibly be.

Think about it. Say Walmart is selecting either Vendor A or Vendor B (both are wholly independent of each other) to provide them with product X to stock in their 600+ stores nationwide (which is a HUGE amount of business).

Do you think that those two companies are going to mess around with high prices, or instead try to offer the lowest imaginable price to Walmart?

I think they're going to opt to try and offer the lowest possible price...

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But you see, those two or three HUGE vendors aren't in just one area. That would not allow them to acquire and turn the kind of volume they need to turn to get the prices down and still make a profit. I think one big box store that was not part of a much larger network would not be able to compete as well with the Mom and Pop stores because there would not be enough price and variety differential that the customers would give up the personal touch and convenience.

So take office supply. We used to have maybe a couple dozen or so smaller office supply stores in our market area. But once Office Max came in followed by Office Depot and Staples, there are now several of each of those big box stores in our area all competing with each other. They employ a lot more people than the small stores employed, but they offer a much wider variety and much lower prices than the small stores offered. And there are hundreds of each scattered across the country.

To compete with them in a nearby mountain community, a shop owner does stock most essential office supplies--pens, mechanical penicils, paper clips,, avery labels, etc. but also is the local UPS outlet, maintains a limited quick copy and fax service, as well as offering some additional products that people buy when they neeed them. When folks need just one or two items they'll dash in there and get it, paying a considerably higher price, rather than drive the 15 miles to the nearest vendor in the city. There are creative ways people find to compete.

Still, when we lived in that community, we fought tooth and nail--successfully--to keep a Wal-Mart Super Center from coming out there. We did not want to lose the quaint character of the rural community, we LIKED our small quaint shops and stores, and a Super Center woiuld have put most out of buisness. We figured Wal-Mart had plenty of other places they could locate.

 

[Katzndogz]

I run through a number of shovels every year. The ones made in China (most of them) are made of Chinese steel. Big surprise there huh? What I have found is the metal deforms faster and the fiberglass handles snap easier than the USA variety. I "save" money with higher quality shovels.

Would you have known that if you hadn't tried to get a bargain?

 

[Foxfyre]

I run through a number of shovels every year. The ones made in China (most of them) are made of Chinese steel. Big surprise there huh? What I have found is the metal deforms faster and the fiberglass handles snap easier than the USA variety. I "save" money with higher quality shovels.

Would you have known that if you hadn't tried to get a bargain?

That's the thing isn't it? We see two branded products side by side that appear to be very similar or even identical. So we buy the cheaper one. It doesn't hold up or is otherwise unsatisfactory. So we don't buy it again but opt for the other brand that costs more but gives us more value for our money.

If quality is not an issue, then Chinese products serve quite well.

China is pretty much where Japan was several decades ago. Then, "made in Japan" equated with junk quality. But the Japanese kept at it, improving, upgrading, and adapting it to their market--the Japanese have some of the best marketing sense of any people in the world--and I imagine all of us now equate Japanese products with high quality.

Will China be able to follow suit? If they continue to realize the virtues in capitalism they very well may. As long as they attempt to combine capitalism with communism, I expect their flawed quality will keep Americans in business.

I do hope, however, that we get the Obama Administration out of Washignton come January and install a government with a much better instinct on how Americans can compete and who will promote laws and regulation that will allow them to do so again and will provide incentive to encourage them to do so. If that happens, then the economy will be booming again, and the poor guy used as an example in the OP will be much less likely to be closing down his business.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

It usually doesn't work that way though. You are more likely to have 3 vendors selling an item at $7.00 versus 300 vendors selling an item at $3.50. The more competition there is the more beneficial to the buyer. And you won't have 300 vendors selling an item at $3.50 unless they are making a profit at that amount.

I don't think I agree with you on this. Perhaps if there was the case of a monopoly, the price might be higher than the 300 vendors, but as long as there's two or three HUGE companies competing against each other, you can be sure that the price is going to be driven down to just about as low as it can possibly be.

Think about it. Say Walmart is selecting either Vendor A or Vendor B (both are wholly independent of each other) to provide them with product X to stock in their 600+ stores nationwide (which is a HUGE amount of business).

Do you think that those two companies are going to mess around with high prices, or instead try to offer the lowest imaginable price to Walmart?

I think they're going to opt to try and offer the lowest possible price...

.
.

But you see, those two or three HUGE vendors aren't in just one area. That would not allow them to acquire and turn the kind of volume they need to turn to get the prices down and still make a profit. I think one big box store that was not part of a much larger network would not be able to compete as well with the Mom and Pop stores because there would not be enough price and variety differential that the customers would give up the personal touch and convenience.

So take office supply. We used to have maybe a couple dozen or so smaller office supply stores in our market area. But once Office Max came in followed by Office Depot and Staples, there are now several of each of those big box stores in our area all competing with each other. They employ a lot more people than the small stores employed, but they offer a much wider variety and much lower prices than the small stores offered. And there are hundreds of each scattered across the country.

To compete with them in a nearby mountain community, a shop owner does stock most essential office supplies--pens, mechanical penicils, paper clips,, avery labels, etc. but also is the local UPS outlet, maintains a limited quick copy and fax service, as well as offering some additional products that people buy when they neeed them. When folks need just one or two items they'll dash in there and get it, paying a considerably higher price, rather than drive the 15 miles to the nearest vendor in the city. There are creative ways people find to compete.

Still, when we lived in that community, we fought tooth and nail--successfully--to keep a Wal-Mart Super Center from coming out there. We did not want to lose the quaint character of the rural community, we LIKED our small quaint shops and stores, and a Super Center woiuld have put most out of buisness. We figured Wal-Mart had plenty of other places they could locate.

Aye...unfortunately our area did not put up a fight when WalMart superstore moved in.
Before.....8 grocery stores
After......3 grocery stores
Before...2 bicycle shops
After....no bicycle shops
Before....4 lawnmower/small tractor stores and 3 had repair centers
After....1 small repair shop...no one else sells lawnmowers in this town besides Walmart and a Kmart.
Before...2 small hardware stores (both in business for at least 50 years or more) and a Lowes.
After...no small hardware stores, still have Lowes
Before...6 liquor stores (besides grocery stores selling beer/wine)
After...1 chain liquor store and 1 privately owned liquor store.

I could go on.
You were all exactly right to fight the Superstore. It absolutely would have put dozens of small locally owned stores out of business.