God vs science

[THE LIGHT]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

 

[froggy]

OK since the A. E. part is disturbing to some ill remove it, But what of the content the student states, do you disagree with his statements and why?

you think killing people for having sex outside of marriage
or being gay
or being wiccan
is GOOD?

you think tossing a good person (who merely happens to be an atheist) into eternal hellfires is GOOD?

you actually agree with god that slavery is a-ok?

well then
both YOU AND GOD are bad

What do you think of the laws, and court system we have? when you break the law and suffer the consequences, do you blame the lawmakers for making those laws or put the blame where it belongs. Its the same with God. he doesn't cause you to go against his will.

 

[Gadawg73]

OK since the A. E. part is disturbing to some ill remove it, But what of the content the student states, do you disagree with his statements and why?

you think killing people for having sex outside of marriage
or being gay
or being wiccan
is GOOD?

you think tossing a good person (who merely happens to be an atheist) into eternal hellfires is GOOD?

you actually agree with god that slavery is a-ok?

well then
both YOU AND GOD are bad

What do you think of the laws, and court system we have? when you break the law and suffer the consequences, do you blame the lawmakers for making those laws or put the blame where it belongs. Its the same with God. he doesn't cause you to go against his will.

Our laws and courts are based on the US Constitution, a document dedicated to the protection of individual and minority rights and the limitations of the powers of government.
Please show us good man the limits that God has on placed himself and how he protects the rights of minorities and the people with his laws. Who voted on God's laws?
Your analogy is absurd.

 

[edthecynic]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

That's a distinction without a difference!

"Create" from the Hebrew lexicon that comes with my bible:

01254 bara' baw-raw'; v

KJV - to create, shape, form

 

[edthecynic]

The religion of God vs the religion of science. Whatever.

Another doofus who wants to pass science off as religion for political purposes.

I wonder if you morons would object to scientists, as the high priests of your so called "religion," getting the same SPECIAL tax PRIVILEGES as other religions?

 

[THE LIGHT]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

That's a distinction without a difference!

"Create" from the Hebrew lexicon that comes with my bible:

01254 bara' baw-raw'; v

KJV - to create, shape, form

Just because it can mean that doesn't mean that it does. Those are just different forms that it can take on, but you have to look at the context. The context being that if he meant the same thing for both cases he would have used the same word but he did not.

And you still haven't answered my question. Maybe you conveniently missed it so I will state it again.

Define "evil" for me please. And please tell me upon what you base your definition.

 

[edthecynic]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.' This is what atheist use as their excuse that "God causes all the evil in the bible", when in truth evil comes from the mind and hands of humans,

No, evil is the absence of GOOD and the presence of God, the self professed "creator" of evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man has God present in his heart.

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

That's a distinction without a difference!

"Create" from the Hebrew lexicon that comes with my bible:

01254 bara' baw-raw'; v

KJV - to create, shape, form

Just because it can mean that doesn't mean that it does. Those are just different forms that it can take on, but you have to look at the context. The context being that if he meant the same thing for both cases he would have used the same word but he did not.

And you still haven't answered my question. Maybe you conveniently missed it so I will state it again.

Define "evil" for me please. And please tell me upon what you base your definition.

Create and form are synonyms!

Main Entry: syn·o·nym
Pronunciation: \ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function: noun
1 : one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses

And I have already defined evil!!! Maybe you conveniently missed it so I posted it again.
And my source is obviously the bible.

 

[uscitizen]

Does God believe in science?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

'Now tell me, professor... Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

You people can't even get the fact straight in your own propaganda

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

I have.

'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?

Get me an MRI machine

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Albert Einstein? Bullshit.

I think it was Aleister Einstein

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X09RtTiRqnQ]YouTube - Aleister Einstein - 11. The Beautiful People[/ame]

 

[amrchaos]

GOOD READ!

GOD VS SCIENCE


( In hopes that all our college students are able to articulate this well. )






In a College classroom with a professor teaching a philosophy lesson: 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. 'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'


'Yes sir,' the student says.


'So you believe in God?'

"Absolutely.. 'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues.

'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'



'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'



'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'


Again, the student has no answer.



Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet.

'Yes.'

'So who created them?'


The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.


'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'



The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir.. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'


'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor.. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

So what point are you making, young man?'

My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with professor, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? "Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor... Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent... The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.



--------------

The student was Albert Einstein

====================


probably all made up.

when i post things that dispute the lunacies of conservatives and evangelical christians they ALWAYS DEMAND links...

where is your link proving that einstein was the student.

---------------

"To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself." Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.' "

trhe professor would have to be a fool to allow himself to be curtailed by this FAULTY logic.

in fact the professor has alrerady addressed the answer;

god made the devil
god made all things
so god made evil

further
being probably more familiar with the nonsense that is in the bible I would have to say that god is NOT good

god promotes slavery in the bible

slavery is NOT good (or...do you think slavery IS good?)

god says to kill witches and homosexuals and athiests....

hardly the acts of a GOOD god.

god sounds to me more like a BAD god
a deranged, evil maniacal bloodthirsty overlypunitive jerk

tossing a GOOD and DECENT PERSON into the fires of hell for ALL eternity simply for NOT believeing in god is NOT the act of a GOOD god.

it is the act of a VERY VERY BAD god

Calm down

In this entire arguement, we have yet to figure out which god the post is talking about.

Is it the the God of the Jews? Is it Ra? Is it Zeus.

Of course let us assume it is the Christian God since the poster is a christian that wish to rile atheists.

Well first of all, let us take a remark on the story posted.

There is cold and there is darkness. These are comparisons used to describe one object to another.

Men are normally born with a brain. Without a brain, it is impossible for the autoimmune system to function. In other words, the heart will not function, the lungs will not suck in air, the man will not live. Thus the fact the professor is alive demonstrates he has a brain.

Finally, evolution is recordable. If this is not proof of evolution, then no record is proof of what it states.

Therefore the Bible is not proof of God since the Bible is suppose to be a recording of God and his people.

So what are we left with?

Cold and darkness do exist
The proof of a brain in a man is demonstratable by his ability to live without aid.
Evolution is recordable.


I guess God existance is recordable too--unfortunately there are different recordings of god and some are considered make believe by theologians that proclaim their own record of god.

Are we to therefore believe the works of these theologians after they denounce the existance of a god? Or should we have skepticism in their words?

We seen where the story goes if we include beliefs and not state how things can be proven or how things actually exist. Now try the story with the proofs input into the story. The student is at an end with his arguement due to faith not being a discussion point.

Good try froggy.

It is possible that Einstien could have posed such a story. Yet Einstein writings on his interpretation of god would be disturbing to a Christian. Something to keep in mind when you wish to attribute something to Einstein. It can be interpretted as a lie due to inconsistencies in the passage. This alone can invalidate the point you wish to make.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

If absence of light is darkness, there was only darkness before he made the light.

Hence he didn't make darkness, as it always does.


Ergo, your god is a liar and nothing it says can be trusted.

 

[uscitizen]

Yahoo Serious?

 

[amrchaos]

Given the logic "Evil is the absence of God"

How can one determine if god is present?

Think about it. How would you determine if something is "Good" or "Evil" if you cannot determine if God is present?

If you can, then you know a way to measure god and can explain it to us.
If you cannot, then what do you really know about Good or Evil? What do you really know about God?

 

[amrchaos]

GOOD READ!

GOD VS SCIENCE


( In hopes that all our college students are able to articulate this well. )






In a College classroom with a professor teaching a philosophy lesson: 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. 'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'


'Yes sir,' the student says.


'So you believe in God?'

"Absolutely.. 'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues.

'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'



'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'



'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'


Again, the student has no answer.



Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet.

'Yes.'

'So who created them?'


The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.


'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'



The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir.. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'


'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor.. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

So what point are you making, young man?'

My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with professor, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? "Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor... Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent... The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

The religion of God vs the religion of science. Whatever.

Science requires skepticsim. Religion requires belief

Science cannot be a religion.

 

[Diuretic]

Yahoo Serious?

Changed his name to reflect the times - now Yahoo! Srsly

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

That's a distinction without a difference!

"Create" from the Hebrew lexicon that comes with my bible:

01254 bara' baw-raw'; v

KJV - to create, shape, form

Since you're playing semantics:

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble." So you see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV;

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters, and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,

•"And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
•"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness", "well being" and "calamity". The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace', "Shalome". So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity.

From the above two verses (Exodus 4:11; Amos 3:6) we can see that the Lord is involved in calamity and problems in the earthly realm. Exodus 4:11 is speaking of human frailty and Amos 3:6 is speaking of woes in a city. It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people.
Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people.

Third, there are other verses that clearly show that God is pure and that He cannot approve of evil.

•“The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).
•"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13).

 

[THE LIGHT]

GOOD READ!

GOD VS SCIENCE


( In hopes that all our college students are able to articulate this well. )






In a College classroom with a professor teaching a philosophy lesson: 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. 'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'


'Yes sir,' the student says.


'So you believe in God?'

"Absolutely.. 'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues.

'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'



'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'



'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'


Again, the student has no answer.



Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet.

'Yes.'

'So who created them?'


The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.


'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'



The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir.. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'


'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor.. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

So what point are you making, young man?'

My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with professor, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? "Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor... Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent... The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

The religion of God vs the religion of science. Whatever.

Science requires skepticsim. Religion requires belief

Science cannot be a religion.

Correct. Science is not religion but rather a set of observable phenomenon. Everyone who views science carries their own world view which happens to effect the way they interpret the results.

 

[froggy]

GOOD READ!

GOD VS SCIENCE


( In hopes that all our college students are able to articulate this well. )






In a College classroom with a professor teaching a philosophy lesson: 'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. 'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'


'Yes sir,' the student says.


'So you believe in God?'

"Absolutely.. 'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues.

'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'



'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'



'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'


Again, the student has no answer.



Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet.

'Yes.'

'So who created them?'


The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.


'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'



The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir.. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'


'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.

The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor.. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

So what point are you making, young man?'

My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with professor, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? "Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor... Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent... The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.



--------------

The student was Albert Einstein

====================


probably all made up.

when i post things that dispute the lunacies of conservatives and evangelical christians they ALWAYS DEMAND links...

where is your link proving that einstein was the student.

---------------

"To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself." Evil is simply the absence of God. It s just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.' "

trhe professor would have to be a fool to allow himself to be curtailed by this FAULTY logic.

in fact the professor has alrerady addressed the answer;

god made the devil
god made all things
so god made evil

further
being probably more familiar with the nonsense that is in the bible I would have to say that god is NOT good

god promotes slavery in the bible

slavery is NOT good (or...do you think slavery IS good?)

god says to kill witches and homosexuals and athiests....

hardly the acts of a GOOD god.

god sounds to me more like a BAD god
a deranged, evil maniacal bloodthirsty overlypunitive jerk

tossing a GOOD and DECENT PERSON into the fires of hell for ALL eternity simply for NOT believeing in god is NOT the act of a GOOD god.

it is the act of a VERY VERY BAD god

Calm down

In this entire arguement, we have yet to figure out which god the post is talking about.

Is it the the God of the Jews? Is it Ra? Is it Zeus.

Of course let us assume it is the Christian God since the poster is a christian that wish to rile atheists.

Well first of all, let us take a remark on the story posted.

There is cold and there is darkness. These are comparisons used to describe one object to another.

Men are normally born with a brain. Without a brain, it is impossible for the autoimmune system to function. In other words, the heart will not function, the lungs will not suck in air, the man will not live. Thus the fact the professor is alive demonstrates he has a brain.

Finally, evolution is recordable. If this is not proof of evolution, then no record is proof of what it states.

Therefore the Bible is not proof of God since the Bible is suppose to be a recording of God and his people.

So what are we left with?

Cold and darkness do exist
The proof of a brain in a man is demonstratable by his ability to live without aid.
Evolution is recordable.


I guess God existance is recordable too--unfortunately there are different recordings of god and some are considered make believe by theologians that proclaim their own record of god.

Are we to therefore believe the works of these theologians after they denounce the existance of a god? Or should we have skepticism in their words?

We seen where the story goes if we include beliefs and not state how things can be proven or how things actually exist. Now try the story with the proofs input into the story. The student is at an end with his arguement due to faith not being a discussion point.

Good try froggy.

It is possible that Einstien could have posed such a story. Yet Einstein writings on his interpretation of god would be disturbing to a Christian. Something to keep in mind when you wish to attribute something to Einstein. It can be interpretted as a lie due to inconsistencies in the passage. This alone can invalidate the point you wish to make.

There is only one God. A religion that promise a reward for doing evil can only be manmade, a religion that lets you be your own god is nothing more than an idea.

 

[edthecynic]

Nice try.

I notice that you completely ignored the words used for both. If you look at it closely, he says that he "formed" the light but "created" darkness. The fact that he chose two separate words to describe the two shows that there is likely a difference in what is being described. God "formed" the light, but "creates" darkness by removing the light.

That's a distinction without a difference!

"Create" from the Hebrew lexicon that comes with my bible:

01254 bara' baw-raw'; v

KJV - to create, shape, form

Since you're playing semantics:

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble." So you see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV;

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).

First of all, it was the light who was playing semantic games with "form" and "create." In typical CON$ervaTard fashion, you accuse others of what you are doinf yourself. Just like the light "conveniently missed" my definition of evil while accusing me of conveniently missing his question. See the first quote in my sig.

And, if you are free to change the words of the bible, you can make it say anything you want rendering it completely worthless.

Below is ra/evil from the lexicon that came with my bible. Clearly, no matter how you try to spin it, whether adj or noun male or noun female, ra/evil is NOT GOOD, so the "all-good" God boasts of CREATING that which is not good.

07451 ra` rah or fem. ra`ah

KJV - evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34; 663

adj
1) bad, evil
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions

n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)

n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)