God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.



I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

TED Blog | The real difference between liberals and conservatives: Jonathan Haidt on TED.com

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

Regards
DL


I think you're claiming to know better than God on any type of morality is silly though it's something we all struggle with at times; some more than others. Even so, we all fall short.

Even Paul (beforehand, aka Saul) didn't understand and/or thought was he was doing was right when persecuting Christians and ultimately the Lord they love.





Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.



.
 
[
All you have to do is ACCEPT It.

Satan would love it if I, like Christians, decided to take the moral low ground and try to profit from God having his son murdered.

No thanks. I have morals.

Regards
DL
 
[
All you have to do is ACCEPT It.

Satan would love it if I, like Christians, decided to take the moral low ground and try to profit from God having his son murdered.

No thanks. I have morals.

Regards
DL

Jesus wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed.

"Into thy hands I commit my Spirit"

He surrendered His life. He GAVE His life for us.

"There is no greater Love than he that would lay down his life for his brother"

:cool:
 
Note to GreatasIam

According to Matthew's--A man is saved if he believes in the words of Christ and praise the father.

This can be interpretted as follows---Jesus did not need to die in order for you, I or anyone else to be saved.

So why was Jesus executed?
Jesus was executed for teaching a message that was heretical in terms of Judaism. Considering that he(or better yet, his followers) claimed Jesus was a teacher(rabbi), messiah and, using the book of John --god, the Jews judged Jesus under the Laws of Leviticus which demanded his execution.

In short, Jesus died for bringing the christian message of salvation to the masses. Thus this is what is meant by "Jesus died for your sins"
 
[

3. Debts can be paid by a person other than the guilty party and have always been able to in almost every nation, even today the court doesnt care if you pay your traffic fine or your parents do. In the past people could take someone elses place for punishments that they could not survive, like whippings etc. We cannot pay the fine for our sin, but Christ can and did.

.

This is not cash.
It is a human life.

Your analogy sucks as bad as your morals.

Regards
DL

Its the 'human life' of an immortal being who is omnicient and perfectly loving.

Your ability to analyze sux as does your objectivity.
 
[
All you have to do is ACCEPT It.

Satan would love it if I, like Christians, decided to take the moral low ground and try to profit from God having his son murdered.

No thanks. I have morals.

Regards
DL

Jesus wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed.

"Into thy hands I commit my Spirit"

He surrendered His life. He GAVE His life for us.

"There is no greater Love than he that would lay down his life for his brother"

:cool:

He was still murdered and his body killed.
 
Satan would love it if I, like Christians, decided to take the moral low ground and try to profit from God having his son murdered.

No thanks. I have morals.

Regards
DL

Jesus wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed.

"Into thy hands I commit my Spirit"

He surrendered His life. He GAVE His life for us.

"There is no greater Love than he that would lay down his life for his brother"

:cool:

He was still murdered and his body killed.

He died, yes, but look at how quickly he died.
He GAVE His life.

:eusa_pray:
 
Jesus wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed.

"Into thy hands I commit my Spirit"

He surrendered His life. He GAVE His life for us.

"There is no greater Love than he that would lay down his life for his brother"

:cool:

He was still murdered and his body killed.

He died, yes, but look at how quickly he died.
He GAVE His life.

:eusa_pray:

I agree, He did give His life, but that is not inconsistent with being murdered.

A father who steps in front of a bullet that would have killed his wife is giving his life and the assailant is still comitting murder.
 
Note to GreatasIam

According to Matthew's--A man is saved if he believes in the words of Christ and praise the father.

This can be interpretted as follows---Jesus did not need to die in order for you, I or anyone else to be saved.

So why was Jesus executed?
Jesus was executed for teaching a message that was heretical in terms of Judaism. Considering that he(or better yet, his followers) claimed Jesus was a teacher(rabbi), messiah and, using the book of John --god, the Jews judged Jesus under the Laws of Leviticus which demanded his execution.

In short, Jesus died for bringing the christian message of salvation to the masses. Thus this is what is meant by "Jesus died for your sins"

If so, all those Christians lined up to profit from his murder and who do not accept their own responsibility for their sins are in for quite the shock for taking the moral low ground.

Regards
DL
 
[

3. Debts can be paid by a person other than the guilty party and have always been able to in almost every nation, even today the court doesnt care if you pay your traffic fine or your parents do. In the past people could take someone elses place for punishments that they could not survive, like whippings etc. We cannot pay the fine for our sin, but Christ can and did.

.

This is not cash.
It is a human life.

Your analogy sucks as bad as your morals.

Regards
DL

Its the 'human life' of an immortal being who is omnicient and perfectly loving.

Your ability to analyze sux as does your objectivity.

Immortals can die. LOL.

Good analyzing there pal.

Regards
DL
 
Jesus wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed.

"Into thy hands I commit my Spirit"

He surrendered His life. He GAVE His life for us.

"There is no greater Love than he that would lay down his life for his brother"

:cool:

He was still murdered and his body killed.

He died, yes, but look at how quickly he died.
He GAVE His life.

:eusa_pray:

Jesus said----------my father who SENT me.

Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, wrote:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.

This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so.
Emphasis mine.

So not only is the killing of an innocent man immoral, but it shows that the redemption allegory being used is that of a financial debt. Which is an interesting parallel to the practice of purchasing 'pardons'.



[It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Free will to me is the ability to make a choice without coercion.
A choice made while under coercion, (especially under threat of pain and suffering), is not a freely made choice, ergo it is not free will. In fact there is a name for it; it's called extortion and it is a criminal offense precisely for the reason that it is not a free choice but a forced one.

"Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense." Wikipedia

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Regards
DL
 
Only an atheist will presume to know the mind of the Lord.

Odd the way they make that work.
 
Atheist cannot know what believers call the unfathomable God.
Only believers can delude themselves into believing that the unfathomable can be fathomed.

I am not an atheist BTW. I just have Godhead with morals.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc]The Dragon in My Garage - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL
 
Atheist cannot know what believers call the unfathomable God.
Only believers can delude themselves into believing that the unfathomable can be fathomed.

I am not an atheist BTW. I just have Godhead with morals.

The Dragon in My Garage - YouTube

Regards
DL

What is God's name?

To give the Godhead a name is to idol worship.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL
 
Atheist cannot know what believers call the unfathomable God.
Only believers can delude themselves into believing that the unfathomable can be fathomed.

I am not an atheist BTW. I just have Godhead with morals.

The Dragon in My Garage - YouTube

Regards
DL

What is God's name?

To give the Godhead a name is to idol worship.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL


You read through a lens starkly with preconceptions.

God has His justifications that I don't have to ask Him for.
I still weep for the ones that died in Gomorrah. That doesn't mean I hate what God did there.
I still pray for the lost souls everywhere. That doesn't mean that He is dismissive of them.

For me to wonder of His ways is akin to an ant trying to understand why that boot squashed their mound.
He is WAY out of my league.

But my Bible tells me that all will be revealed to me. That I will be a part of His knowing and understanding.
I won't have to ask Him anything.
 
Note to GreatasIam

According to Matthew's--A man is saved if he believes in the words of Christ and praise the father.

This can be interpretted as follows---Jesus did not need to die in order for you, I or anyone else to be saved.

So why was Jesus executed?
Jesus was executed for teaching a message that was heretical in terms of Judaism. Considering that he(or better yet, his followers) claimed Jesus was a teacher(rabbi), messiah and, using the book of John --god, the Jews judged Jesus under the Laws of Leviticus which demanded his execution.

In short, Jesus died for bringing the christian message of salvation to the masses. Thus this is what is meant by "Jesus died for your sins"

Exactly, which is why in one instance He stated that He didn't come to replace the law, but rather to expand upon it. Currently at that time, the only ones who had a decent understanding of who God was were the Jews, but God wanted to have EVERYONE understand who He was, so He sent Yeshua to take the message to everyone else.

Matter of fact, when Yeshua was leaving Jerusalem to go see the man with demons that He cast into the pigs that went over a cliff, He was spotted by another Jew who recognized who He was and Yeshua told him to be quiet. However..........after He'd cast the demons out of the man (who was a Gentile, i.e. non Jewish) He told the man to go forth and tell everyone what God had done for him via Yeshua.

The main reason Yeshua was crucified is because of a backroom deal between the Jewish leaders and the Roman rule. The Jews wanted Him gone because He was stirring up the people, and the Romans wanted Him gone because the viewed Him as a threat.

The reason Judas hung himself in front of Caphias' tomb? Because Caphias had turned Yeshua over to the Romans when Judas was told that he wouldn't be, and defiling Caphias' family tomb was a way to exact revenge.

No..............Yeshua didn't come for the Jews, they already had a relationship with God (and as a matter of fact, Yeshua was Jewish), but rather He came here for the Gentiles (i.e. everyone else).

Matter of fact, there was talk among the disciples for a while as to whether or not they would require new followers to convert to Judaism.
 
What is God's name?

To give the Godhead a name is to idol worship.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL


You read through a lens starkly with preconceptions.

God has His justifications that I don't have to ask Him for.
.

Hitler's S S said the same of Hitler.
Some likely cried for the Jews.

Regards
DL
 

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