God is impossible.. Long read but good!!

[MajikMyst]

Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman

Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Remainder HERE

The rules of fair use require links to, and prohibit the posting of, another's original material in entirety.

~Dude

 

[Amanda]

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me.

 

[MajikMyst]

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me.

I don't need to tell myself anything.. But the point stands.. Christians constantly demand that others prove that god does not exist.. Never do they make the same effort to prove he does..

So? Here is their chance.. Prove he exists..

 

[Avatar4321]

It would only be good if it were accurate. I can see a number of problems already and Im not even trying that much:

1) The writer seems to have no idea what perfect means. Not surprising considering most people misuse that word.

2) If falsely claims the Bible has to be perfect and is perfect. Granted this is because there are alot of Christians who falsely claim and assume this as well. The fact is the Bible doesnt claim to be perfect. And the very nature of fallen man would prove that anything touched by mortal man cannot be perfect. The truth is that God works through modern revelation. He continues to reveal His will to His living people so that they can know for themselves. He also reveals to people the truths found in the scriptures and how they help us in modern life. The scriptures are not the ultimate authority. God is. The scriptures are a tool to teach us how to recieve revelation and learn from God.

3) The Spirit of Prophecy isnt about predicting the future. It's about testifying of Jesus Christ. Once you understand that the scriptures teach that the Spirit of prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ, you understand why Moses said that God wanted all men to have the Spirit of Prophecy. Because He wanted all to testify to their knowledge of the Messiah and His Atonement.

4) The writer misunderstands creation. Ill have to add that again to the category, the writer is wrong because a majority of Christians are wrong. They incorrectly believe the Creation Ex Nihilo doctrine. That there was nothing here and then suddenly there was because God said so. The Bible on the other hand teaches that God organized the world. That He created it out already existing materials. This unfortunately is lost on the english translations of the scriptures, but alot clearer in the original language. If I build/create a rocking chair, does that mean I had no materials to work with before?

The fact is matter is Eternal. it has always existed. The universe has always existed in some form. God is the only who organized the materials into the universe we see now. He has been doing this from Eternity, and will continue doing it for Eternity. It's His job.

5) This, of course, leads to common misconceptions about what being all powerful means. For some reason people seem to think that being all powerful means on can do anything at all. But this isnt accurate. You cant do a logical possibility no matter how powerful you are. You cant make a circle a square. What all powerful means is that you have power to do anything that it is possible to do. This is exactly why the "Can God create a rock so big he couldnt lift it" argument is ridiculous. Because it ignores what all powerful actually means.

6) The writer seems to think that suffering is by definition evil and no good can come of it. Thus God is somehow bad because suffering exists. Suffering exists for a reason. And I think much good can come of it sometimes. You just have to be open to and willing to learn from your experiences. Problem is some people seem to think that only things that make you feel good and pleasure are good. This is entirely false. In fact, its those so called pleasurable things that can often make us suffer more in the long run. Example: People clearly dont like to eat healthy. Let's just face it, junk food taste good. Its more pleasurable. And some people feel like they are suffering if they arent eating something that tastes good. If they have to eat vegetables or bran or something they are suffering. But in reality they are taking care of their bodies. They will be suffering less down the line than those who destroy their bodies and have 50 years of pain once their actions catch up to them. See suffering is often in the eye of the beholder. And its not necessarily a bad thing it can often be very good.


7) I think I've made a pretty good list here considering im only browsing lightly for problems I have found in the writers opinion. The fact is the original writer has an inaccurate view of God. Is it any wonder he finds the Christian God an impossibility? And sadly that has alot to do with the inaccuracy Christians themselves have about who God is. But because their understanding of God is inaccurate, doesnt mean He isnt there. Nor does it mean that the Atonement of Christ is not real. But are we supposed to just believe? God doesnt ask for blind faith. He asks us to trust Him and He will show us with power the truth. The problem is people rarely give God the chance to keep that promise. How many people truly ask God to know the truth with any sort of faith? How many people experiment with faith? Many simply assume because they think they know better or something doesnt make sense or because the Bible says something they like that they dont need to ask God whether what they are thinking is accurate and that God wont answer them if they did.

But God does speak to people who humble themselves before Him. He will answer those who exercise faith. And you dont have to have alot of faith. Even if all you can do is consider the possibility, you can find out. I didnt always know whether there was a God. In fact, I seriously questioned it for quite a while. But I was willing to believe the scriptures that if we ask we recieve and if we seek we will find. I was willing to believe that if there was a God, He could somehow let me know so that I would know Him. And He did. I dont expect anyone to take my word for it. In fact, I dont want anyone to take my word for it. I want people to investigate and search on their own. I want people to have their own experiences with God. But it starts by opening up to the possibility that you can. And if you are willing to believe that you can, you eventually will.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't need to tell myself anything.. But the point stands.. Christians constantly demand that others prove that god does not exist.. Never do they make the same effort to prove he does..

So? Here is their chance.. Prove he exists..

You seem to misunderstand what Christians are doing when they are "demanding proof" that God does not exist. They arent actually expecting you to show proof. They are showing you that your standard of proof neither prove nor disprove God. They are providing credibility for their beliefs by showing that you cant disprove God is there. Which naturally you can. If you were honest with yourself, you would realize you cant prove or disprove God based on the material world around you.

So does that mean you cant know God? No. It means you cant know matters of the Spirit by the physical. If you want to learn about the Spirit world, you need to do so with your Spirit.

I know God exists because Ive had experiences with Him. My life is my evidence that He exists. The pure knowledge the Spirit brings is overwhelming evidence that He exists. The problem is you deny that such a world exists so you never allow yourself the opportunity to experience it. You presume to already know, so you dont seek and you never find. You dont ask therefore you dont recieve. and then you never learn anything.

Knowledge comes when you ask questions and seek to find the answers. You dont necessarily find the answers immediately, but no one ever said you did. However, if you never are willing to believe you can find the answers, you will never search for them and thus you remain in darkness and ignorance rather than learning truth as you could have if you just searched.

 

[Si modo]

If only perceived hypocrisy were all that was needed to be non-existent, we would be a politician-free world.

 

[Diuretic]

I sometimes wonder why atheists bother. As long as religion doesn't infect government then I don't see a problem. I don't know why some atheists have this urge to tell believers they are wrong. Just leave them alone. Yes, the proofs of God's existence are faulty, but most of the proofs were devised well before science became so influential in human affairs and we began to understand the universe a little more.

I do agree that the "prove God doesn't exist" response is silly though.

 

[MajikMyst]

Avatar, I appreciate the effort you have put into your posts to respond.. But from what I have read of your posts.. You have missed the point the author was trying to make..

Simply put, Christians definition of god is impossible..

Perfection is that which is without fault.. But that is realitive to someones point a view or perception.. Christians never make that disctinction.. A pair of shoes that are perfect for me may not be perfect for you.. We may have different size feet.. I am well aware as to what the word means.. As is the author.. Christians however don't have a clue..

On a logical stand point.. Perfection can only create perfection.. Even in the terms of free choice, we wold make the perfect choice.. Using the definition of christians.. Which is impossible as we have all sinned..

Assuming that god has some intelligence.. Who created god? God can't be everlasting because at some point god had to be taught what he knows.. To simply say god is every lasting and knows it all is impossible.. Energy and matter are ever lasting and they don't know anything but are required for anything to exist..

In Genesis, it say that 'God said let there be light.' Who was god talking to?? Himself??

The point the author is making is that god in the biblical sense and the christian definition are impossible.. And he would be correct..

Which is why Christians always ask you to prove the negative.. Cause they can't prove the positive.. Lack of evidence of his existence is evidence that he doesn't exist..

In it fundemental form, religion has and always will be a means for people to explain that which they can't explain.. It is not based in truth or any tangable evidence.. There is more proof of the existence of a hobbit than god or christ..

 

[Smartt33]

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me.

I don't need to tell myself anything.. But the point stands.. Christians constantly demand that others prove that god does not exist.. Never do they make the same effort to prove he does..

So? Here is their chance.. Prove he exists..

Well, the proof of God is in us, and we know it by God's presence. You will discover it one day, sooner than later I hope. However, why are you arguing about it if it is a non-issue to you? We won't hurt you any m ore than you will hurt us. Relax.

 

[foggedinn]

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me.

I don't need to tell myself anything.. But the point stands.. Christians constantly demand that others prove that god does not exist.. Never do they make the same effort to prove he does..

So? Here is their chance.. Prove he exists..

I believe you have it backwards. The very few times I have heard Christians say prove God doesn't exists are vastly outnumbered by athiests demanding proof that God does exist.

Your post being a case in point.

The solution to the riddle of angels and pins is proof of a universal negative. Of course, it takes an act of God to solve the riddle.

 

[foggedinn]

Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman
I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object.

Remainder HERE

The rules of fair use require links to, and prohibit the posting of, another's original material in entirety.

~Dude

Saying a cubic sphere is impossible is an assumption based on three dimensional Euclidian geometry. I can't imagine one based on four dimensions (time) either. However, I'm aware that phyisists and mathmaticians haven't been able to explain what little we know of the universe in less than ten dimensions. I don't know that a cubic sphere can exist, but, I don't know that it can't exist either.

 

[eagleseven]

The biggest threat to Yahweh/God/Allah is Vishnu/Devi/Shiva.

Yahweh and Vishnu are mutually exclusive...thus, to believe in one, you must deny the other. But why deny the other? There is no proof of either, and each has billions of followers.

Do you prefer your God in chocolate or vanilla?

 

[Amanda]

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me.

I don't need to tell myself anything.. But the point stands.. Christians constantly demand that others prove that god does not exist.. Never do they make the same effort to prove he does..

So? Here is their chance.. Prove he exists..

The "point" doesn't stand with me. i read the article and it was BS. I could go line by line but I don't care enough to bother. The arguments are weak, anyone that reads it will see for themselves.

The idea that Christians "constantly demand that others prove God doesn't exist" is hogwash. I'm a Christian and I've NEVER demanded anything like that.

Take your atheist BS and peddle it somewhere where they care.

 

[Gunny]

Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman

Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Remainder HERE

The rules of fair use require links to, and prohibit the posting of, another's original material in entirety.

~Dude

Yeah, you DO need a complete knowledge of the universe, backed by evidence to support YOUR statement. That's how elementary school debate works, bobo.

Otherwise, Christianity is PROVEN no more nor less than YOUR religion. Back to the drawing board for you, Wile E.

 

[tigerbob]

Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman

Introduction

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Remainder HERE

The rules of fair use require links to, and prohibit the posting of, another's original material in entirety.

~Dude

I'm not sure how it could be considered that a long read to prove something that is impossible to prove (one way or the other) is a good read.

Plus, the very first sentence (Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny.) is absurd.

Christians take the existence of God on faith, requiring no proof.

The author needs to get out more.

 

[2Parties]

If only perceived hypocrisy were all that was needed to be non-existent, we would be a politician-free world.

What a damn good post.

 

[Smartt33]

Avatar, I appreciate the effort you have put into your posts to respond.. But from what I have read of your posts.. You have missed the point the author was trying to make..

Simply put, Christians definition of god is impossible..

Perfection is that which is without fault.. But that is realitive to someones point a view or perception.. Christians never make that disctinction.. A pair of shoes that are perfect for me may not be perfect for you.. We may have different size feet.. I am well aware as to what the word means.. As is the author.. Christians however don't have a clue..

God's perfection is absolute, and your perspective or mine are not connected in any way to His perfection.

We cannot even come close to recognizing the total perfection that God is because we are men, created beings. Being created in itself would mean that we missed the first part of perfection, that being "always existed."

Man will not get there, and it is arrogance to believe that we can call God less than perfect. We don't even have a clue what perfect is, except that it is 100% right. Even in your comment about a person's shoes, you missed the real meaning of perfect. A person's feet change, and no pair of shoes will be perfect for them always, they will not last forever, and even if they did, the person will not. Shoes get marred, wear out, and at some point you always find a pair you like better. So, that is not even close to an illustration of perfect.

On a logical stand point.. Perfection can only create perfection.. Even in the terms of free choice, we wold make the perfect choice.. Using the definition of christians.. Which is impossible as we have all sinned..

Who says perfection can only create perfection. That is your perspective, which I have already shown you is weak at best regarding perfection.

Assuming that god has some intelligence.. Who created god? God can't be everlasting because at some point god had to be taught what he knows.. To simply say god is every lasting and knows it all is impossible.. Energy and matter are ever lasting and they don't know anything but are required for anything to exist..

Once again, what is impossible for you is not impossible for God. He certainly is the "I Am," and that name means always existed, and always will.

In Genesis, it say that 'God said let there be light.' Who was god talking to?? Himself??

I am sorry, there seems to just be times when being rude cannot be avoided. You really, really need to actually study the Bible at least once.

The point the author is making is that god in the biblical sense and the christian definition are impossible.. And he would be correct..
Which is why Christians always ask you to prove the negative.. Cause they can't prove the positive.. Lack of evidence of his existence is evidence that he doesn't exist..

You may not know this, but even perfection cannot be proven. There will always be questions, no matter how many you ask. God is the only one who can prove God. I make no attempt to do that. However, God has proven Himself to me many times. He can dig into your own perspective and show you a thing or two also.

In it fundemental form, religion has and always will be a means for people to explain that which they can't explain.. It is not based in truth or any tangable evidence.. There is more proof of the existence of a hobbit than god or christ..

OK, then why don't you go somewhere else and talk about something else. I am satisfied with what I believe in God, and you certainly cannot come close to changing my mind. So, just go somewhere where you can do some good. For, to me you are making yourself look like a fool, as the scriptures say, "One sho says there is no God makes himself a fool."

 

[amrchaos]

Avatar, I appreciate the effort you have put into your posts to respond.. But from what I have read of your posts.. You have missed the point the author was trying to make..

Simply put, Christians definition of god is impossible..

Perfection is that which is without fault.. But that is realitive to someones point a view or perception.. Christians never make that disctinction.. A pair of shoes that are perfect for me may not be perfect for you.. We may have different size feet.. I am well aware as to what the word means.. As is the author.. Christians however don't have a clue..

On a logical stand point.. Perfection can only create perfection.. Even in the terms of free choice, we wold make the perfect choice.. Using the definition of christians.. Which is impossible as we have all sinned..

Assuming that god has some intelligence.. Who created god? God can't be everlasting because at some point god had to be taught what he knows.. To simply say god is every lasting and knows it all is impossible.. Energy and matter are ever lasting and they don't know anything but are required for anything to exist..

In Genesis, it say that 'God said let there be light.' Who was god talking to?? Himself??

The point the author is making is that god in the biblical sense and the christian definition are impossible.. And he would be correct..

Which is why Christians always ask you to prove the negative.. Cause they can't prove the positive.. Lack of evidence of his existence is evidence that he doesn't exist..

In it fundemental form, religion has and always will be a means for people to explain that which they can't explain.. It is not based in truth or any tangable evidence.. There is more proof of the existence of a hobbit than god or christ..

I think the article you are referring to is in response to the Abrahmic God(Strong God Theory). I think there was a thread that already argued that the Abrahmaic God discredit any religion that proposes him.

( The Arguement is as follows:
1)God can will anything in to being
2)Religion exist to teach man about Gods Will

Thus we have two cases

3a)Man knows about GOD. This implies religion is unnecessary.

3b)Man does not know about God. This implies 1 or 2 or both are false. 1 could be false because God can will anything to existance is contradicted. If 1 is not false then 2 is false because no one knows gods will --including theologians/the religion. )


In Avatars case, the God being referenced to is not an Omnipotent or Omnipresence being So it stands outside the authors argument.

There is also one last thing that has to be made clear--before one can make arguements about God, there has to be a clear definition of what God is. The Abrahmaic God is totally ridiculous arguement for the religious and few people on this board even consider arguing its merits due to the contradictory nature that are to be proposed.

 

[2Parties]

I always think it's funny that humans think they can disprove God/god like the human mind has the authority or capability of doing so. We (all of us) are idiots. Our mind is very simplistic despite what our own ego's tell us. We know (and we know much less than we think we do) and experience very little of what is in the universe in our relatively short life times. The arrogance on both sides of this debate always makes me chuckle.

 

[amrchaos]

I always think it's funny that humans think they can disprove God/god like the human mind has the authority or capability of doing so. We (all of us) are idiots. Our mind is very simplistic despite what our own ego's tell us. We know (and we know much less than we think we do) and experience very little of what is in the universe in our relatively short life times. The arrogance on both sides of this debate always makes me chuckle.

Before one can prove or disprove god, you still have to define God.

Is it more ridiculous to define what you cannot percieve?

By the way, my previous post was not to discredit the existance of God--but to show that religion is either unnecessary or bogus if it claims the existance of the Abrahmic God. People do tend to miss the point of that logical argument. "Strong God" implies "Religion is BS"!