God has all attributes including evil iniquity.

[ABikerSailor]

The SaTan and Lucifer are 2 different entities.

The SaTan (Satan) is actually God's District Attorney, and whenever mankind does something wrong, Satan is there to report it to God and hold you accountable.

Lucifer is the one that was jealous. Might help if you didn't combine the 2, because both are very different beings in Judaic theology.

 

[GreatestIam]

The SaTan and Lucifer are 2 different entities.

The SaTan (Satan) is actually God's District Attorney, and whenever mankind does something wrong, Satan is there to report it to God and hold you accountable.

Lucifer is the one that was jealous. Might help if you didn't combine the 2, because both are very different beings in Judaic theology.

Good think then that the Jews know that their myths are just that. Myths that they do not read literally.

RaceandHistory.com - Doubting the Story of Exodus

I did not see an answer to my qestions though.

Regards
DL

 

[violet]

[
Actually, the real sin of the Garden of Eden wasn't so much that they ate from the tree, it was that both of them tried to blame it on someone else and didn't take responsibility for it.

Things would have been a lot different I think, if Adam had said that yeah, he was told not to eat, but he was curious and did anyway. Because, remember..........God can forgive you if you admit to what you did and resolve to never do it again, but if you don't admit to doing wrong, you can't be forgiven.

And..........how does human sacrifice insure Christianity's immortality?

I thought Yeshua was divine.

Doing wrong means having an evil intent when doing it. A & E did not know what evil was till after the act and thus any punishment would have been immoral because they had no intent to sin.

Further, that was a really dumb command. It is basically saying, remain as dumb as cows.

Would you deny your children knowledge of almost everything?

Further, A & E were supposed to have free will.

Do commands from God not negate free will.
Do as I say or I will kill you is hardly free will.


Your Yeshua, if God, cannot die.

Humans die.

Do you think a religion based on human sacrifice and a God that can be bribed by the murder of an innocent man, a price that God himself set, moral?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18&feature=related]Christopher Hitchens - Christianity is Immoral (1 of 2) - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs]The meaningless death of Jesus - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL

If I tell my child, don't touch the stove and I leave the room for a second. I come back in and she is near the stove, my child knows she was about to do something wrong and runs away and pretends she had no intent to touch the stove. Her reaction to me coming back into the room and catching her about to touch the stove Proves that she knows it's wrong. Now would you say putting a stove in my kitchen is wrong? You don't know why God but the tree there or what it's function was. All we know is that God told them not to touch it as a warning to prevent them from harm the same way my telling my kids not to touch the stove keeps them from harm.

Adam and Eve told the serpent God told them not to touch the tree. They knew what they were doing was wrong or the serpent would not have had to coax them into eating the fruit. That proves intent. It also proves they excercised their free will. Having free will doesn't mean there are no consequences for your actions.

It's obvious that God did not create A&E as dumb as cows. If you look in Genesis Adam names every creature, does that sound dumb? He was protecting them from the Knowlege of good and evil. We know that Adam already knew right from wrong and he probably knew good but did he know Evil. Wrong and Evil can be very seperate things. I teach my children right from wrong but I don't teach them Evil. God also told them they would surely die the way I tell my kids they might get burned. It's protecting them from something that provides a good function but they don't have the capacity Yet to know how to use the stove properly. The stove can also provide a bad function by burning something unintentionally or setting fire to the house or even providing a means of suicide by sticking your head in the oven. This is something they learned as adults but now they have the capacites to know that's not what it's for.

Genesis 1: 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

God doesn't die and neither do humans. The flesh can die but the spirit is eternal. Spiritual death doesn't mean death the way it does for the flesh, it means seperation from God and eternal damnation in hell. Christs Sacrifice saves us from eternal damnation. Because an innocent man suffered spiritual death that he did not deserve, those who do deserve spiritual death can now have eternal life with God.

 

[GreatestIam]

Thanks for showing that you will add whatever you like to scriptures to suit your foolish notions.

You assign harm to the tree of knowledge by using an analogy of a hot stove yet knowledge of good and evil is a rather indispensable ingredient that some say is practically all knowledge.

A true analogy is not a hot stove that harms but the very good knowledge that God himself said made them----as Gods, knowing good and evil.

That is not a stove. It is more like a school and your God denied them any learning.

When you left the kitchen in your scenario, did you make sure a supernatural tempter was there to make sure your child went near the stove?

2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

Have you ever wondered why Christianity changed the Jewish view of their myth of a rite of passage and an elevation of man to a fall that God used to punish the whole world with original sin?

Here is why Christianity did it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc]'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube[/ame]

When your chid touched the stove in your scenario, did you go up and down the street punishing others?
Why would you respect a mother or God who would?

Regards
DL

 

[FA_Q2]

IMO, you sound like you are trying to blame the woes that people bring on themselves via their free will on God. Even as an atheist, I find your arguments asinine. Boo Hoo, its GODS fault because he gave me the choice. It might fail our knowledge as to why or even what the tree was but whining simply because God put it there and people chose to eat from it is asinine. TBH, there are a lot of OTHER things that you can take religion to task with but this tact is rather strange....

 

[GreatestIam]

IMO, you sound like you are trying to blame the woes that people bring on themselves via their free will on God. Even as an atheist, I find your arguments asinine. Boo Hoo, its GODS fault because he gave me the choice. It might fail our knowledge as to why or even what the tree was but whining simply because God put it there and people chose to eat from it is asinine. TBH, there are a lot of OTHER things that you can take religion to task with but this tact is rather strange....

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

Regards
DL

 

[violet]

Thanks for showing that you will add whatever you like to scriptures to suit your foolish notions.

You assign harm to the tree of knowledge by using an analogy of a hot stove yet knowledge of good and evil is a rather indispensable ingredient that some say is practically all knowledge.

A true analogy is not a hot stove that harms but the very good knowledge that God himself said made them----as Gods, knowing good and evil.

That is not a stove. It is more like a school and your God denied them any learning.

When you left the kitchen in your scenario, did you make sure a supernatural tempter was there to make sure your child went near the stove?

2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

Have you ever wondered why Christianity changed the Jewish view of their myth of a rite of passage and an elevation of man to a fall that God used to punish the whole world with original sin?

Here is why Christianity did it.

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

When your chid touched the stove in your scenario, did you go up and down the street punishing others?
Why would you respect a mother or God who would?

Regards
DL

I didn't add anything. The tree is called the tree of the knowlege of good and EVIL. Evil implies that it can do harm. It's not my fault you don't know as much as you think you do.



(ē'vəl)
adj., e·vil·er, e·vil·est.
1.Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2.Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3.Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4.Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5.Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.


Read more: evil: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

Again Adam named every creature in the garden, he was hardly mentally incompetent. Yes he told them not to eat of that tree but that doesn't mean he didn't know right from wrong or good from bad. It was the tree that drew the line between knowing good and EVIL. Not knowing evil is hardly a bad thing. Evil and bad while have pretty much the same definition are not always considered the same thing. You might say "bad dog" but I've never heard anyone say "evil dog". Why? Because Evil is assigned to the worst of the worst. Bad is usually considered a lighter term. You will notice that the first thing Adam and Eve did after eating the fruit is cover themselves with leaves. Why? Because it was the first time they knew shame. So God tried to keep the knowledge of shame from them,is that bad? Then they lied to God,tried to pass blame and make excuses. Immediately you see the negative effects on them and it gets worse by the minute. What You don't see is Good. Why? Because they already knew what good was. It was all around them. As God was making creation the Bible repeatedly says God saw his creation was good.

I'm drawing from the Bible not the Torah, I'm not Jewish and not interested in Judism any more than i am interesting in the Koran or Muslims.

 

[violet]

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

When your chid touched the stove in your scenario, did you go up and down the street punishing others?
Why would you respect a mother or God who would?

Regards
DL

The Bible says there is a hell. Jesus says there is a hell. The fact that this man is Masquerading as a Priest is sad. If he doesn't beleive what the Bible teaches then why is this man wearing a backwards collar? Seems kind of stupid to me. Hardly a man I would take advice from.

 

[GreatestIam]

[

Again Adam named every creature in the garden, he was hardly mentally incompetent. Yes he told them not to eat of that tree but that doesn't mean he didn't know right from wrong or good from bad. It was the tree that drew the line between knowing good and EVIL. Not knowing evil is hardly a bad thing. Evil and bad while have pretty much the same definition are not always considered the same thing. You might say "bad dog" but I've never heard anyone say "evil dog". Why? Because Evil is assigned to the worst of the worst. Bad is usually considered a lighter term. You will notice that the first thing Adam and Eve did after eating the fruit is cover themselves with leaves. Why? Because it was the first time they knew shame. So God tried to keep the knowledge of shame from them,is that bad? Then they lied to God,tried to pass blame and make excuses. Immediately you see the negative effects on them and it gets worse by the minute. What You don't see is Good. Why? Because they already knew what good was. It was all around them. As God was making creation the Bible repeatedly says God saw his creation was good.

I'm drawing from the Bible not the Torah, I'm not Jewish and not interested in Judism any more than i am interesting in the Koran or Muslims.

Have it your foolish way then. Continue to think that one can know good and evil without any knowledge of good and evil.

Your logic is just too impeccable, read that as ass backwards, for me to refute.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

When your chid touched the stove in your scenario, did you go up and down the street punishing others?
Why would you respect a mother or God who would?

Regards
DL

The Bible says there is a hell. Jesus says there is a hell. The fact that this man is Masquerading as a Priest is sad. If he doesn't beleive what the Bible teaches then why is this man wearing a backwards collar? Seems kind of stupid to me. Hardly a man I would take advice from.

After your last post, you are not a good judge of stupid.

Care to try looking at hell from a moral standpoint?
You do know what morals are I hope. Let's see.

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.


To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

Regards
DL


Regards
DL

 

[ABikerSailor]

Thanks for showing that you will add whatever you like to scriptures to suit your foolish notions.

You assign harm to the tree of knowledge by using an analogy of a hot stove yet knowledge of good and evil is a rather indispensable ingredient that some say is practically all knowledge.

A true analogy is not a hot stove that harms but the very good knowledge that God himself said made them----as Gods, knowing good and evil.

That is not a stove. It is more like a school and your God denied them any learning.

When you left the kitchen in your scenario, did you make sure a supernatural tempter was there to make sure your child went near the stove?

2. Orthodox Judaism: The Garden of Eden

Have you ever wondered why Christianity changed the Jewish view of their myth of a rite of passage and an elevation of man to a fall that God used to punish the whole world with original sin?

Here is why Christianity did it.

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

When your chid touched the stove in your scenario, did you go up and down the street punishing others?
Why would you respect a mother or God who would?

Regards
DL

I didn't add anything. The tree is called the tree of the knowlege of good and EVIL. Evil implies that it can do harm. It's not my fault you don't know as much as you think you do.



(ē'vəl)
adj., e·vil·er, e·vil·est.
1.Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2.Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3.Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4.Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5.Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.


Read more: evil: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

Again Adam named every creature in the garden, he was hardly mentally incompetent. Yes he told them not to eat of that tree but that doesn't mean he didn't know right from wrong or good from bad. It was the tree that drew the line between knowing good and EVIL. Not knowing evil is hardly a bad thing. Evil and bad while have pretty much the same definition are not always considered the same thing. You might say "bad dog" but I've never heard anyone say "evil dog". Why? Because Evil is assigned to the worst of the worst. Bad is usually considered a lighter term. You will notice that the first thing Adam and Eve did after eating the fruit is cover themselves with leaves. Why? Because it was the first time they knew shame. So God tried to keep the knowledge of shame from them,is that bad? Then they lied to God,tried to pass blame and make excuses. Immediately you see the negative effects on them and it gets worse by the minute. What You don't see is Good. Why? Because they already knew what good was. It was all around them. As God was making creation the Bible repeatedly says God saw his creation was good.

I'm drawing from the Bible not the Torah, I'm not Jewish and not interested in Judism any more than i am interesting in the Koran or Muslims.

Really Violet? Did you realize that the Torah is actually the first 5 books of the Bible (which is where the Creation story is)? If you're not interested in knowing anything about the Jews, well......then you'd better throw out the OT, as the first 5 books is the Torah, and the rest of the OT is a history of the Jewish people.

Oh yeah.........you may wish to also remember that Yeshua (Jesus to you Christians) was actually a good JEWISH man, and the only reason He was in Jerusalem when He was crucified is that He was there to celebrate Passover (a Jewish observance).

It's amazing how pin headed many of you Christians can be.

 

[GreatestIam]

+ 1

Regards
DL