God and Man

[Fisherking]

I have been amazed by the number of people who now do not accept the bible as the Word of God.
It seems that more and more are starting to believe that the Bible is flawed with time and translations.
That it is the word of man.
Does anyone still believe that the Bible is truth anymore?
Is it so far fetched to think that man could have written the Bible while under devine insperation by the Spirit of our Heavenly Father?
I dont think its so far fetched.
Some statistics show that less than half adults under 30 believe that God never existed. I hope that is exagerated.
I believe America is falling farther away from God, we have started to fall asleep, while God is saying its time to wake up.
What is our reason for being here?
Do you believe God has a purpose for mankind?
If so, what do you think that purpose is?

 

[HopeandGlory]

I admire your faith and committment, Fisher-King. To play advocate - why not turn this on its head - can you give me a really valid reason why we should accept the Bible is the work of God?

As a document, it's flawed and full of contradictions. It's as vengeful and sexist as any Greek or Roman mythology. I once heard it described as the Jewish Book of Myths and Legends.

We live in a scientific age and enjoy the undeniable perks such an age brings with it. But our technological expansion demands reason and explanation - not just blind acceptance. People ask questions and continually seek answers - that's what distinguishes us as a species.

Surely one of the problems with the more fanatical factions of global society is that they follow elements of their faith with total blindness?

Having said all this - I do have a strong faith myself. But I don't believe in faith at all and any costs. A lot of pain and suffering, war and grief, violence and inhumanity have been perpetrated in the name of mankind's various Gods.

And as a footnote - with the billions of stars and galaxies out there - it's unfeasible to believe the earth has produced the only sentient life in the Universe. Has God dropped-off a copy of the Bible to all of those life-forms too?

 

[Bullypulpit]

I have been amazed by the number of people who now do not accept the bible as the Word of God.
It seems that more and more are starting to believe that the Bible is flawed with time and translations.
That it is the word of man.
Does anyone still believe that the Bible is truth anymore?
Is it so far fetched to think that man could have written the Bible while under devine insperation by the Spirit of our Heavenly Father?
I dont think its so far fetched.
Some statistics show that less than half adults under 30 believe that God never existed. I hope that is exagerated.
I believe America is falling farther away from God, we have started to fall asleep, while God is saying its time to wake up.
What is our reason for being here?
Do you believe God has a purpose for mankind?
If so, what do you think that purpose is?

Why should you be so amazed? Given the wide variety in capacity and capability we find amongst people all over the world, to claim that the general garment of any given religion is fit for all is, at best, naive. Just as a particular suit fits on person perfectly, with another finding it too tight or too loose, so too does religion fit some perfectly while others not at all.

Religion provides, those who need it, a sense of place and purpose in the world and the guidance to live good and moral lives. Others provide their own sense of place and purpose in the world, and religion is just so much uneccessary baggage. They lead good and moral lives without reliance on divine guidance.

If you find the comfort and guidance you need from religion, all well and good...But proselytizing annoys those who don't. Those who don't seek or find comfort in religion...let those who do go their own way. In either case, there is no justification for attempting to impose your views upon one another.

 

[Nienna]

FisherKing, you're not alone. I believe in God. I believe the Bible is His inspired word, that it is literally true within its natural context, that Jesus is God and the fulfillment of the messiah prophecies, that he rose from the dead and will return some day.

 

[Fisherking]

I admire your faith and committment, Fisher-King. To play advocate - why not turn this on its head - can you give me a really valid reason why we should accept the Bible is the work of God?

As a document, it's flawed and full of contradictions. It's as vengeful and sexist as any Greek or Roman mythology. I once heard it described as the Jewish Book of Myths and Legends.

We live in a scientific age and enjoy the undeniable perks such an age brings with it. But our technological expansion demands reason and explanation - not just blind acceptance. People ask questions and continually seek answers - that's what distinguishes us as a species.

Surely one of the problems with the more fanatical factions of global society is that they follow elements of their faith with total blindness?

Having said all this - I do have a strong faith myself. But I don't believe in faith at all and any costs. A lot of pain and suffering, war and grief, violence and inhumanity have been perpetrated in the name of mankind's various Gods.

And as a footnote - with the billions of stars and galaxies out there - it's unfeasible to believe the earth has produced the only sentient life in the Universe. Has God dropped-off a copy of the Bible to all of those life-forms too?

I can not offer up any tangible evidence that the Bible is the perfect word of God. The Bible is faith based, not physical. To have faith is to just believe.
The Bible says that faith is the substance of things hoped for.
What kind of faith does it take if we have faith in what we can only see.
I believe no doubt in blind faith, those who go seeking physical evidence rarely get it because even if they did see evidence, they would not accept it as such.
Jesus was asked many times to give a sign, and with all the miracles he did,
the ones asking for proof couldnt accept those miracles as just that.

"Blessed are those who believe, but have not seen."

I know there has been many sufferings and wars in the name of God.
Most of which Im sure, he had little if anything to do with.
There are many radical people with radical views that always tend to start trouble in the name of God.

And as far as other planets and life. In the words of Larry Norman.

" If there is life on other planets, im sure that he must know, and hes been there once already, and has died to save there soul"

Peace.

 

[Fisherking]

Why should you be so amazed? Given the wide variety in capacity and capability we find amongst people all over the world, to claim that the general garment of any given religion is fit for all is, at best, naive. Just as a particular suit fits on person perfectly, with another finding it too tight or too loose, so too does religion fit some perfectly while others not at all.

Religion provides, those who need it, a sense of place and purpose in the world and the guidance to live good and moral lives. Others provide their own sense of place and purpose in the world, and religion is just so much uneccessary baggage. They lead good and moral lives without reliance on divine guidance.

If you find the comfort and guidance you need from religion, all well and good...But proselytizing annoys those who don't. Those who don't seek or find comfort in religion...let those who do go their own way. In either case, there is no justification for attempting to impose your views upon one another.

Im sorry if you feel imposed on.
I just really enjoy the topic.
I know that there are many beliefs out there and stand up for the rights of everyone to believe them and discuss them as I am doing here.
Your point of view is welcomed.

 

[-Cp]

I admire your faith and committment, Fisher-King. To play advocate - why not turn this on its head - can you give me a really valid reason why we should accept the Bible is the work of God?

Sure - lots of em', but here's a couple:
<li>Even though it's really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.

<li>The Bible has hundreds of very detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, to the future of certain cities, to the future of mankind and to the coming of one who would be the Messiah, the Savior of not only Israel, but all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those done by Nostradamus, the biblical prophecies are extremely detailed and have never failed to come true. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.

As a document, it's flawed and full of contradictions. It's as vengeful and sexist as any Greek or Roman mythology. I once heard it described as the Jewish Book of Myths and Legends.

Please - name us some of its contradictions oh Biblical scholar I'm sure you are

We live in a scientific age and enjoy the undeniable perks such an age brings with it. But our technological expansion demands reason and explanation - not just blind acceptance. People ask questions and continually seek answers - that's what distinguishes us as a species.

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Having said all this - I do have a strong faith myself. But I don't believe in faith at all and any costs. A lot of pain and suffering, war and grief, violence and inhumanity have been perpetrated in the name of mankind's various Gods.

Much more pain and suffering has been committed from the name of evil men like Hitler - what's yer point here? Am I to say "all men really suck because people like Hitler, Saddam and other evil men are all humans so I should isolate myself from all humans"? Sounds dumb, right? Same logic.

And as a footnote - with the billions of stars and galaxies out there - it's unfeasible to believe the earth has produced the only sentient life in the Universe. Has God dropped-off a copy of the Bible to all of those life-forms too?

Not unfeasible at all - the Bible says that (Paraphrased here): "God has made himself known throughout his Creation so that no man can be held with excuse of the Knowledge of God"....

Additionally, the Bible tells us that we were unique among all of God's creation and the only ones who were born with a living Soul. The more man explores the Universe the more we see God's handiwork in it and the more we realize that he went to all that trouble for his own pleasure and to let us know that we ARE unique in all the universe...

 

[Fisherking]

FisherKing, you're not alone. I believe in God. I believe the Bible is His inspired word, that it is literally true within its natural context, that Jesus is God and the fulfillment of the messiah prophecies, that he rose from the dead and will return some day.

Your post is a blessing.
I really enjoy finding other believers for common ground.
God uses that as a comfort for us.
I believe as welll that Christ is the word of God.
And I as well believe he is returning soon.
Maybe sooner than we realise.

 

[HopeandGlory]

Sure - lots of em', but here's a couple:
<li>Even though it's really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.

<li>The Bible has hundreds of very detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, to the future of certain cities, to the future of mankind and to the coming of one who would be the Messiah, the Savior of not only Israel, but all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those done by Nostradamus, the biblical prophecies are extremely detailed and have never failed to come true. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.



Please - name us some of its contradictions oh Biblical scholar I'm sure you are



The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."



Much more pain and suffering has been committed from the name of evil men like Hitler - what's yer point here? Am I to say "all men really suck because people like Hitler, Saddam and other evil men are all humans so I should isolate myself from all humans"? Sounds dumb, right? Same logic.



Not unfeasible at all - the Bible says that (Paraphrased here): "God has made himself known throughout his Creation so that no man can be held with excuse of the Knowledge of God"....

Additionally, the Bible tells us that we were unique among all of God's creation and the only ones who were born with a living Soul. The more man explores the Universe the more we see God's handiwork in it and the more we realize that he went to all that trouble for his own pleasure and to let us know that we ARE unique in all the universe...

I'm sorry, but the Bible IS a mass of contradictions - I refer you to this site as I don't have time or energy to go about listing them all.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#father_of_joseph

And as for being a 'Bible Scholar' of course I'm not. Very few people in the entire world can claim that great distinction. But I do know a little about it and I have read it through several times. Does your own concept of Christianity really reduce itself to offering insults to a complete stranger? I would not treat you in this way - nor would I presume to call you a fool.

If you read my post properly, I said I had total faith in a higher deity in-spite of all my doubts and questions. Surely, questions are healthy, otherwise nothing would ever change?

As for the pain and suffering point - I don't retract it. I know mankind has been the root cause of terrible pain and suffering. But much of that pain and suffering has been perpetrated in the name of a God. Not necessarily a Christian God, the Vikings killed in the name of Odin and Thor, the Greeks in the name of Ares, the Romans in the name of Mars. The Spaniards tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of people during the Inquisition whilst clutching a Bible in their hands.

Your arguement is based upon total acceptance of the Bible as a de facto text. The whole point of the original poster was to ask why people these days did not accept it as such. That's what I was trying to answer - maybe clumsily - but honestly.

Lastly, I do not have enough vanity to believe we are entirely alone in a Universe which contains millions of Galaxies, let alone single planets.

It's always healthy to disagree - but not to fight or resort to name-calling because of it.

 

[dmp]

I'm sorry, but the Bible IS a mass of contradictions - I refer you to this site as I don't have time or energy to go about listing them all.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#father_of_joseph

And as for being a 'Bible Scholar' of course I'm not. Very few people in the entire world can claim that great distinction. But I do know a little about it and I have read it through several times. Does your own concept of Christianity really reduce itself to offering insults to a complete stranger? I would not treat you in this way - nor would I presume to call you a fool.

If you read my post properly, I said I had total faith in a higher deity in-spite of all my doubts and questions. Surely, questions are healthy, otherwise nothing would ever change?

As for the pain and suffering point - I don't retract it. I know mankind has been the root cause of terrible pain and suffering. But much of that pain and suffering has been perpetrated in the name of a God. Not necessarily a Christian God, the Vikings killed in the name of Odin and Thor, the Greeks in the name of Ares, the Romans in the name of Mars. The Spaniards tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of people during the Inquisition whilst clutching a Bible in their hands.

Your arguement is based upon total acceptance of the Bible as a de facto text. The whole point of the original poster was to ask why people these days did not accept it as such. That's what I was trying to answer - maybe clumsily - but honestly.

Lastly, I do not have enough vanity to believe we are entirely alone in a Universe which contains millions of Galaxies, let alone single planets.

It's always healthy to disagree - but not to fight or resort to name-calling because of it.

The contradictions pointed out by most people are 'stupid' contradictions.

As an example:

Mark says Jesus was HAPPY!
John says Jesus was GLAD!

Then a bunch of idiots shout about a contradiction.

The bible doesn't always maintain the same language - but the concepts, the messages, and all things IMPORTANT are perfect. Again, spread out over a thousand? years - the bible, as a collection, does NOT contradict.

 

[-Cp]

I'm sorry, but the Bible IS a mass of contradictions - I refer you to this site as I don't have time or energy to go about listing them all.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#father_of_joseph

And as for being a 'Bible Scholar' of course I'm not. Very few people in the entire world can claim that great distinction. But I do know a little about it and I have read it through several times. Does your own concept of Christianity really reduce itself to offering insults to a complete stranger? I would not treat you in this way - nor would I presume to call you a fool.

If you read my post properly, I said I had total faith in a higher deity in-spite of all my doubts and questions. Surely, questions are healthy, otherwise nothing would ever change?

As for the pain and suffering point - I don't retract it. I know mankind has been the root cause of terrible pain and suffering. But much of that pain and suffering has been perpetrated in the name of a God. Not necessarily a Christian God, the Vikings killed in the name of Odin and Thor, the Greeks in the name of Ares, the Romans in the name of Mars. The Spaniards tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands of people during the Inquisition whilst clutching a Bible in their hands.

Your arguement is based upon total acceptance of the Bible as a de facto text. The whole point of the original poster was to ask why people these days did not accept it as such. That's what I was trying to answer - maybe clumsily - but honestly.

Lastly, I do not have enough vanity to believe we are entirely alone in a Universe which contains millions of Galaxies, let alone single planets.

It's always healthy to disagree - but not to fight or resort to name-calling because of it.

What "name-calling" did I resort to?

Agreeing w/ DMP here... those contradictions are sad at best.... try and use your own thoughts - especially from a person who has "read thru the Bible several times" to point out any contradictions...

 

[Bullypulpit]

FisherKing, you're not alone. I believe in God. I believe the Bible is His inspired word, that it is literally true within its natural context, that Jesus is God and the fulfillment of the messiah prophecies, that he rose from the dead and will return some day.

Biblical literalism did not really gain a foothold until the mid to late 19th century. This in response to the rationalism fostered by scientific progress on all fronts. Prior to that, the bible was understood for the allegory that it is.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Im sorry if you feel imposed on.
I just really enjoy the topic.
I know that there are many beliefs out there and stand up for the rights of everyone to believe them and discuss them as I am doing here.
Your point of view is welcomed.

I don't feel imposed upon at all. I'm just annoyed by the proselyte on the doorstep at 0900 on a Saturday morning while I'm trying to sleep in. Even more annoying are the politicians who smugly claim to be religious folk while their every action shows them for the hypocrites they are.

I respect anyone of genuine faith, who walks it as they talk it, regardless of their faith.

 

[dmp]

Biblical literalism did not really gain a foothold until the mid to late 19th century. This in response to the rationalism fostered by scientific progress on all fronts. Prior to that, the bible was understood for the allegory that it is.

You're very wrong. You're generally wrong. But in this case, you're just making shit up, and proclaiming it 'fact'.

:duh3:

 

[Bullypulpit]

You're very wrong. You're generally wrong. But in this case, you're just making shit up, and proclaiming it 'fact'.

:duh3:

Karen Armstrong, "<i><b>The Battle for God</b></i>"...Details the rise of biblical literalism in America starting in th 19th century. But you got me...the rise of biblical literalism can be traced back to the Protestant orthodoxy of the 17th century in an attempt assert some scientific "proof" of biblical assertions.

 

[5stringJeff]

Biblical literalism did not really gain a foothold until the mid to late 19th century. This in response to the rationalism fostered by scientific progress on all fronts. Prior to that, the bible was understood for the allegory that it is.

Wrong.

"Clement became the leader of the Alexandrian school in AD 190. He saw the literal meaning of Scripture as being a "starting point" for interpretation." link

Not only that, but the early church fathers believed in Sola Scriptura, which would mean nothing without a literal translation of Scripture.

 

[Dr Grump]

Mark says Jesus was HAPPY!
John says Jesus was GLAD!.

NOt a very good example. Glad and happy are synonyms, not contraditions...

 

[Phaedrus]

The fool Laments in his heart, "There is no God."

I have modified your quote to reflect, at least, my situation. I have no issue being called a fool, I have no pretesions otherwise. I try, I fail, etc etc... But, never mistake my intention in that I want to believe. I am simply not willing to lie to myself.

When I say this, I have no implications whatsoever as to others, I am just being geniune about my situation. I have never felt or seen God, nor do I believe creation to be beyond the scope of random chance. None of my prayers have been answered.

There are certain elements of the scriptures I disagree with (Abraham/Isaac), and general inconsistancies (i.e. the simple number of religions) that simply point otherwise. I am not arrogant enough to consider myself correct, but I will abide by what I believe.

I believe a benevolant God would have revealed himself to a weeping six year old bemoaning the inevitably of death. It is something that has disturbed me since I first dreamed of it. Make no mistake, I was raised a Christian, and I lament.

 

[Fisherking]

I have modified your quote to reflect, at least, my situation. I have no issue being called a fool, I have no pretesions otherwise. I try, I fail, etc etc... But, never mistake my intention in that I want to believe. I am simply not willing to lie to myself.

When I say this, I have no implications whatsoever as to others, I am just being geniune about my situation. I have never felt or seen God, nor do I believe creation to be beyond the scope of random chance. None of my prayers have been answered.

There are certain elements of the scriptures I disagree with (Abraham/Isaac), and general inconsistancies (i.e. the simple number of religions) that simply point otherwise. I am not arrogant enough to consider myself correct, but I will abide by what I believe.

I believe a benevolant God would have revealed himself to a weeping six year old bemoaning the inevitably of death. It is something that has disturbed me since I first dreamed of it. Make no mistake, I was raised a Christian, and I lament.

I am familiar with laments as well. 6 years ago I lost my infant daughter.
I couldnt understand why God would allow it to happen, I was even angry at him about it.
But I couldnt let that change what I believe.
As a matter of fact I sometimes find comfort knowing that she will be waiting in heaven for me.
Lament is not such a bad thing, just painful sometimes.
And as far as prayers being answered, it happens when God sees its time.
Take me for example, I was a drug addict for years when I was younger, It was pretty much the only thing I knew.
I spent years praying that God would help me, even though I didnt really know God, I had respect for him and wanted to do the right thing.
And eventually God did exactly that, but it took a while.
Im not sure why God made me wait, but Im sure he had a reason.
Sometimes it takes time.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Welcome to the board, Fisherking!

Btw, there are many of us here who believe.