Global Warming and More Pesky Facts

[Trakar]

This is true, Old Rocks, *many* are and *many are NOT. Indias own government insists that nothing is wrong with their glaciers, they are not disappearing.

Debate heats up over IPCC melting glaciers claim - environment - 08 January 2010 - New Scientist

Somebody better update the Indian officals as they are releasing a lot of current information saying that their glaciers are shrinking

(10 hours ago) - Study: Himalayan glacial melt accelerating - UPI.com

(And the Chinese and Tibetans - 3 days ago) - IRIN Global | CLIMATE CHANGE: Himalayan glaciers melting more rapidly | Global | Environment | Natural Disasters | Water & Sanitation

Perhaps this explains it a bit better:

Tibetan glaciers retreating, earlier study flawed: Report
Subodh Varma, TNN Jul 17, 2012, 07.44PM IST

NEW DELHI: Most glaciers on the Tibetan plateau and around it are rapidly melting says the latest study based on 30 years of satellite data and also actual measurements. This upturns results of a study published earlier this year based on satellite measurements over seven years which said that Tibetan glaciers are growing.

Tibetan glaciers retreating, earlier study flawed: Report - Times Of India

 

[polarbear]

This is true, Old Rocks, *many* are and *many are NOT. Indias own government insists that nothing is wrong with their glaciers, they are not disappearing.

Debate heats up over IPCC melting glaciers claim - environment - 08 January 2010 - New Scientist

Somebody better update the Indian officals as they are releasing a lot of current information saying that their glaciers are shrinking

(10 hours ago) - Study: Himalayan glacial melt accelerating - UPI.com

(And the Chinese and Tibetans - 3 days ago) - IRIN Global | CLIMATE CHANGE: Himalayan glaciers melting more rapidly | Global | Environment | Natural Disasters | Water & Sanitation

Perhaps this explains it a bit better:

Tibetan glaciers retreating, earlier study flawed: Report
Subodh Varma, TNN Jul 17, 2012, 07.44PM IST

NEW DELHI: Most glaciers on the Tibetan plateau and around it are rapidly melting says the latest study based on 30 years of satellite data and also actual measurements. This upturns results of a study published earlier this year based on satellite measurements over seven years which said that Tibetan glaciers are growing.

Tibetan glaciers retreating, earlier study flawed: Report - Times Of India

I followed Your links but the satellite data link of that news paper pointed only to:
Satellite: Latest News, Videos, Photos | Times of India
And there was absolutely nothing to support that claim. Interesting is how the definitions have changed since 1997. Now a 10 year trend is "only the weather" and they say for the "climate" you need 30 years to qualify.
That`s not what they say when polar ice is discussed. Suddenly a 5 year snapshot suffices as "climate".
About the Himalayan glaciers:

"We were surprised to find that at 19,849 feet [the height at which the glacier is located] there had been no net accumulation [of ice] since the late 1940s," Thompson told IRIN, the news service of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

To build glaciers You need to accumulate massive amounts of snow first. It does not matter where they are. I have not been to the Himalayans but I have been all over Greenland for decades. The only time it snows there is when a warm front moves in which carried enough moisture. And in Greenland glaciers "melt" also during the winter at temperatures well below -40 C. The steeper the slope the higher the downhill slide rates of these massively heavy ice slabs. We can register earth tremors during winter when large enough ice masses detach.
I`m pretty sure the Himalayan Mountain slopes are quite a bit steeper than what we got on Greenland or Ellesmere Island.
The other thing I noticed that the guy who made that statement was :

Thompson told IRIN, the news service of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Separately, researchers at the Nepal Climate Observatory Pyramid, 16,663 feet high in the Himalayas, have lately focused on how "black carbon" -- fine soot and ash produced by diesel exhausts, thermal power plants, brick kiln smokestacks, and forest fires – may be accelerating the melting of ice and snow.
The U.N. Environment Program and some scientists and international research organizations say that increased black carbon deposits on Himalayan glaciers cause them to absorb more sunlight, thus accelerating glacial and snow melt.

This quack did the same thing up in the arctic. He looked around on a southern Greenland Glacier which is accessible to Enviro-Tourists till he found a spot that suited him and posed for a photo-op pointing at the minerals in the glacier ice and told National Geographic it was soot from diesel engines. By the way when that stuff melts it`s called "glacier milk" and its rich in minerals. As a matter of fact so rich that it is been bottled and sold commercially !!

On the same page of that newspaper this link pointed was also another statement which downplayed the cheating the e-mail hacks revealed.
The paper claims that an investigation found no evidence of fraud. Talk about bending the facts. The investigation was a British Parliament hearing which was to decide if criminal fraud charges should be laid. By that time the culprits had already deleted the temperature data sets in question and under British Law concerning fraud,...same in Canada, the onus of proof is on the accuser to prove that there was a intent to defraud in order to obtain a financial gain.
That is the only thing which could not be proven, everything else had been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
And now these fraudsters turn around and claim they did not cheat...and cite that "investigations" revealed that they had been falsely accused

 

[Trakar]

This is true, Old Rocks, *many* are and *many are NOT. Indias own government insists that nothing is wrong with their glaciers, they are not disappearing.

Debate heats up over IPCC melting glaciers claim - environment - 08 January 2010 - New Scientist

Somebody better update the Indian officals as they are releasing a lot of current information saying that their glaciers are shrinking

(10 hours ago) - Study: Himalayan glacial melt accelerating - UPI.com

(And the Chinese and Tibetans - 3 days ago) - IRIN Global | CLIMATE CHANGE: Himalayan glaciers melting more rapidly | Global | Environment | Natural Disasters | Water & Sanitation

Perhaps this explains it a bit better:

Tibetan glaciers retreating, earlier study flawed: Report
Subodh Varma, TNN Jul 17, 2012, 07.44PM IST

NEW DELHI: Most glaciers on the Tibetan plateau and around it are rapidly melting says the latest study based on 30 years of satellite data and also actual measurements. This upturns results of a study published earlier this year based on satellite measurements over seven years which said that Tibetan glaciers are growing.

Tibetan glaciers retreating, earlier study flawed: Report - Times Of India

I followed Your links but the satellite data link of that news paper pointed only to:
Satellite: Latest News, Videos, Photos | Times of India
And there was absolutely nothing to support that claim. Interesting is how the definitions have changed since 1997. Now a 10 year trend is "only the weather" and they say for the "climate" you need 30 years to qualify.
That`s not what they say when polar ice is discussed. Suddenly a 5 year snapshot suffices as "climate".
About the Himalayan glaciers:

"We were surprised to find that at 19,849 feet [the height at which the glacier is located] there had been no net accumulation [of ice] since the late 1940s," Thompson told IRIN, the news service of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

To build glaciers You need to accumulate massive amounts of snow first. It does not matter where they are. I have not been to the Himalayans but I have been all over Greenland for decades. The only time it snows there is when a warm front moves in which carried enough moisture. And in Greenland glaciers "melt" also during the winter at temperatures well below -40 C. The steeper the slope the higher the downhill slide rates of these massively heavy ice slabs. We can register earth tremors during winter when large enough ice masses detach.
I`m pretty sure the Himalayan Mountain slopes are quite a bit steeper than what we got on Greenland or Ellesmere Island.
The other thing I noticed that the guy who made that statement was :

Thompson told IRIN, the news service of the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Separately, researchers at the Nepal Climate Observatory Pyramid, 16,663 feet high in the Himalayas, have lately focused on how "black carbon" -- fine soot and ash produced by diesel exhausts, thermal power plants, brick kiln smokestacks, and forest fires – may be accelerating the melting of ice and snow.
The U.N. Environment Program and some scientists and international research organizations say that increased black carbon deposits on Himalayan glaciers cause them to absorb more sunlight, thus accelerating glacial and snow melt.

This quack did the same thing up in the arctic. He looked around on a southern Greenland Glacier which is accessible to Enviro-Tourists till he found a spot that suited him and posed for a photo-op pointing at the minerals in the glacier ice and told National Geographic it was soot from diesel engines. By the way when that stuff melts it`s called "glacier milk" and its rich in minerals. As a matter of fact so rich that it is been bottled and sold commercially !!

On the same page of that newspaper this link pointed was also another statement which downplayed the cheating the e-mail hacks revealed.
The paper claims that an investigation found no evidence of fraud. Talk about bending the facts. The investigation was a British Parliament hearing which was to decide if criminal fraud charges should be laid. By that time the culprits had already deleted the temperature data sets in question and under British Law concerning fraud,...same in Canada, the onus of proof is on the accuser to prove that there was a intent to defraud in order to obtain a financial gain.
That is the only thing which could not be proven, everything else had been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
And now these fraudsters turn around and claim they did not cheat...and cite that "investigations" revealed that they had been falsely accused

Show me the facts. Your entire argument is composed of hearsay, subjective interpretation and spin. Demonstrate the facts which compellingly indicate fraud, cover-up and conspiracy and we can go from there. Innuendo, assertion and distorted representations of reality are unacceptable substitutes for verifiable and objective fact in the types of claims you are making.

As to Climate change, the RoT for climate signal determination has always been 30 years.

((EDIT addition - not sure why the broken link on the Times of India site, here is a link to the article - http://m.timesofindia.com/home/envi...-study-flawed-Report/articleshow/15019804.cms))

 

[polarbear]

Show me the facts. Your entire argument is composed of hearsay, subjective interpretation and spin. Demonstrate the facts which compellingly indicate fraud, cover-up and conspiracy and we can go from there. Innuendo, assertion and distorted representations of reality are unacceptable substitutes for verifiable and objective fact in the types of claims you are making.

As to Climate change, the RoT for climate signal determination has always been 30 years.

((EDIT addition - not sure why the broken link on the Times of India site, here is a link to the article - The Times of India on Mobile))

First of all don`t try to stuff Your idiotic liberal "conspiracy" (theory) counter arguments into my mouth. For fraud to be proven you don`t need a conspiracy, but You do need to prove it was with the intent to use it for financial gain. That could not be proven during the British Parliamentary inquiries. What remains is that the hockey stick was based on LIES !!!!, but unfortunately that`s not a crime...so f-off trying to tell us that we owe you proof that this sorry lot of data forgers are indeed a bunch of liars.
No, the onus is on You to show me the facts !
And where are the Himalayan satellite pictures in the article you quoted ?
Except for the usual blah blah there is nothing else:

NEW DELHI: Most glaciers on the Tibetan plateau and around it are rapidly melting says the latest study based on 30 years of satellite data and also actual measurements. This upturns results of a study published earlier this year based on satellite measurements over seven years which said that Tibetan glaciers are growing.

There is nothing new here just the usual denial of all data which does not fit into this ridiculous "CO2 forcing" which people like You who don`t know the difference between thermal energy and heat insist on.
Tell me how IR can actually HEAT a gas which can freely expand !
Thermal energy is one thing but to convert it to HEAT in a gas You first have to prevent the gas from expanding before it can heat up.
Go back to school before You try lecture me on physics !!!
Thermal energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When two thermodynamic systems with different temperatures are brought into diathermic contact, they spontaneously exchange energy as heat, which is a transfer of thermal energy from the system of higher temperature to the colder system. Heat may cause work to be performed on a system, for example, in form of volume or pressure changes. This work may be used in heat engines to convert thermal energy into other forms of energy. When two systems have reached a thermodynamic equilibrium, they have attained the same temperature and the net exchange of thermal energy vanishes, and heat flow ceases.

 

[polarbear]

Show me the facts. Your entire argument is composed of hearsay, subjective interpretation and spin. Demonstrate the facts which compellingly indicate fraud, cover-up and conspiracy and we can go from there. Innuendo, assertion and distorted representations of reality are unacceptable substitutes for verifiable and objective fact in the types of claims you are making.

((EDIT addition - not sure why the broken link on the Times of India site, here is a link to the article - The Times of India on Mobile))

I know what kind of "facts" you are sitting on:
'Climategate' inquiry largely clears scientists - US news - Environment - Climate Change - NBCNews.com

"Hide the decline" was not an attempt to conceal data but was scientific shorthand for discarding erroneous data, the committee concluded. Similarly, Jones intended "trick" to mean a neat way of handling evidence, rather than anything underhanded, the inquiry found

And they are quoting a report that was generated by these liars who to boot put it on the internet so it appears to be the conclusions of the British Parliamentary Committee:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/387/387i.pdf

Which it is not !!!! Its a report from the Climatic Research Unit at the U of east Anglia. The British Parliament instructed the Stationary Office in London to publish what they had to say.
The report was written by :
a) Rt Hon Lord Lawson of Blaby, Chairman, and Dr Benny Peiser, Director, Global
Warming Policy Foundation;

a) Rt Hon Lord Lawson of Blaby, Chairman, and Dr Benny Peiser, Director, Global Warming Policy Foundation;
b) Richard Thomas CBE, former Information Commissioner;
c) Professor Edward Acton, Vice-Chancellor, UEA and Professor Phil Jones, Director of CRU;
d) Sir Muir Russell, Head of the Independent Climate Change E-Mails Review; and e) Professor John Beddington, Government Chief Scientific Adviser, Professor Julia Slingo OBE, Chief Scientist, Met Office, and Professor Bob Watson, Chief Scientist, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

And the panel of liars and fraud artists concluded:

57. In his submission, Peter Taylor, author of Chill,81 states that:
The tree ring data did not match the model expectation (ie the ‘hockey stick’ pattern of a sudden rise at the end of the period). Rather than admit this, the team-workers discuss using Michael Mann’s ‘trick’ of replacing the offending tree-ring data and using instrumental data in its place in a spliced graph.82
58. UEA interpreted the use of the word “trick” differently:
as for the (now notorious) word ‘trick’, so deeply appealing to the media, this has been richly misinterpreted and quoted out of context. It was used in an informal email, discussing the difficulties of statistical presentation. It does not mean a ‘ruse’ or method of deception. In context it is obvious that it is used in the informal sense
20 The disclosure of climate data from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia of ‘the best way of doing something’. In this case it was ‘the trick or knack’ of constructing a statistical illustration which would combine the most reliable proxy and instrumental evidence of temperature trends.83
59. These interpretations of the colloquial meaning of “trick” have been accepted by even the staunchest of critics:
Lord Lawson of Blaby: The sinister thing is not the word ‘trick’. In their [UEA’s] own evidence they say that what they mean by ‘trick’ is the best way of doing something.

Chairman: You accept that?
Lord Lawson of Blaby: I accept that.84

What makes assholes like you think that Lord Blabbermouth, Chairman Global Warming Policy Foundation; can re-difine the difference between honesty and lying for everybody else who is not as retarded as you?
This entire 'science" is based on crap just like that.

 

[Trakar]

Show me the facts. Your entire argument is composed of hearsay, subjective interpretation and spin. Demonstrate the facts which compellingly indicate fraud, cover-up and conspiracy and we can go from there. Innuendo, assertion and distorted representations of reality are unacceptable substitutes for verifiable and objective fact in the types of claims you are making.

As to Climate change, the RoT for climate signal determination has always been 30 years.

((EDIT addition - not sure why the broken link on the Times of India site, here is a link to the article - The Times of India on Mobile))

First of all don`t try to stuff Your idiotic liberal "conspiracy" (theory) counter arguments into my mouth. For fraud to be proven you don`t need a conspiracy, but You do need to prove it was with the intent to use it for financial gain. That could not be proven during the British Parliamentary inquiries. What remains is that the hockey stick was based on LIES !!!!, but unfortunately that`s not a crime...so f-off trying to tell us that we owe you proof that this sorry lot of data forgers are indeed a bunch of liars.

You make an assertion, it is incumbant upon you to provide the evidence that compellingly supports those assertions. SO far, all you offer are assertions without any compelling supportive evidences. Support your allegations or drop them, it matters little to me.

No, the onus is on You to show me the facts!

the science supports my statements, what more do you require in the way of facts?

And where are the Himalayan satellite pictures in the article you quoted ?

What satellite pictures? the article mentions no pictures?

(("Satellite" is the name of section of the India Times paper that handles follow ups and addendums to previously run articles - the article speaks of satellite measurements and data, but these aren't the types of satellites that produce ground images.))

(...)
Tell me how IR can actually HEAT a gas which can freely expand !
Thermal energy is one thing but to convert it to HEAT in a gas You first have to prevent the gas from expanding before it can heat up.
Go back to school before You try lecture me on physics !!!
Thermal energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When two thermodynamic systems with different temperatures are brought into diathermic contact, they spontaneously exchange energy as heat, which is a transfer of thermal energy from the system of higher temperature to the colder system. Heat may cause work to be performed on a system, for example, in form of volume or pressure changes. This work may be used in heat engines to convert thermal energy into other forms of energy. When two systems have reached a thermodynamic equilibrium, they have attained the same temperature and the net exchange of thermal energy vanishes, and heat flow ceases.

Your rant seems filled with confused misunderstandings and inappropriate/irrelevent information.

First, who and where in this thread, do you see anyone talking about heat or heating a gas?

Secondly, there are several mechanisms of heat transfer, the three most common are conduction, convection, and radiative transfer. All of these methods involve the transfer of energy.

Thirdly, I'll be happy to discuss any issue that you disagree with me about or have questions about, but you need to ratchet it down a bit, between all the font shifts, bolding and over the top rhetoric, it looks like your about to pop a coronary artery. Its silly to get that personally worked up over any issue discussed on a messageboard.

 

[Old Rocks]

Even after the 2009 hacked emails proving a global conspiracy with enough info to thoroughly discredited UN IPCC -it still adopted the position the Himalayan glaciers would be extinct by 2035. Except........oops, its growing. Those pesky facts just WILL not stop getting in line with the left's DESPERATE need to keep this scam alive.

Himalayan Glaciers Expand, Challenging IPCC's Credibility

USGS Release: Glaciers Retreating in Asia (8/25/2010 10:33:00 AM)

Many of Asia’s glaciers are retreating as a result of climate change.

This is true, Old Rocks, *many* are and *many are NOT. Indias own government insists that nothing is wrong with their glaciers, they are not disappearing.

Debate heats up over IPCC melting glaciers claim - environment - 08 January 2010 - New Scientist

In 1999 New Scientist reported a comment by the leading Indian glaciologist Syed Hasnain, who said in an email interview with this author that all the glaciers in the central and eastern Himalayas could disappear by 2035.

Hasnain, of Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi, who was then chairman of the International Commission on Snow and Ice's working group on Himalayan glaciology, has never repeated the prediction in a peer-reviewed journal. He now says the comment was "speculative".

India Together: Are Himalayan glaciers not melting? - 22 March 2012

22 March 2012 - One would have thought that the controversy over the wrong deadline, fixing 2035 as the date by which Himalayan glaciers would disappear due to global warming, in the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in its Fourth (and latest) Assessment Report in 2007, would have been set to rest after the IPCC admitted its mistake and withdrew the offending paragraph. But uncertainty still rears its head from time to time.

The latest to tread on this tricky terrain is a team of US scientists led by Professor John Wahr of the University of Colorado. Their findings, published in the authoritative journal Nature in February, claim that the mountain chain from the Himalayas to the Tibetan plateau has lost no ice over the past decade, contrary to scientific consensus. The study is said to be the first to survey all the world's ice caps with the use of satellites.

In the world as a whole, the contribution of melting ice caps and glaciers to a rise in the ocean level is much less than previously estimated, the study says. Apart from the two largest caps, which are Greenland and Antarctica, the reduction is largely due to the lack of ice loss in the Himalayas and other high peaks of Asia. It estimates that globally, between 443 and 629 billion tonnes of melt water are added to the oceans every year.

This will raise sea levels by around 1.5 mm a year, along with 2 mm a year caused by the oceans expanding with global warming. According to a Bristol University glaciologist, who was not part of the study, this means that sea level rise by 2100 will only be around 5 cm, while present estimates range from 30 cm to 1 metre. He terms this "a very small modification".

Prof Wahr hedges his findings by pointing out that their study analyses only eight years of data, from 2003-2010, which is insufficient to gauge even the following eight years, let along nine decades till the end of the century. What is more, the extremely variable nature of the monsoon, which is an Asian natural phenomenon but one badly affected by climate change, means that there can be a difference of billions of tonnes of ice forming from one year to another.

There is nothing but anecdotal evidence that glaciers are shrinking, certainly no scientific evidence that I have seen, though this whole fiasco shows how quick the IPC C is to reflexively use any obscure data no matter how shakey to try and support their AGW hysteria.

AGW is not a scientific theory; it is a secular version of religious faith.

Jim, that is one dumb statement. Photographic evidence from the 1870's to present all show the glacier rapid retreat. The people that study glaciers, the USGS and their governmental equivelants worldwide all state the same thing. Except for a few minor exceptions, the glaciers worldwide are in rapid retreat.

So, you are stating that there is a worldwide conspriracy among all geologists to lie about the retreat of the glaciers?

 

[Old Rocks]

Bi-Polar has a long time posted nonsense, then insisted that it is true, because he knows it is true. He has yet to link to real scientists, usually linking to the worst of those that use lies and slander to deny the obvious.

 

[Trakar]

Show me the facts. Your entire argument is composed of hearsay, subjective interpretation and spin. Demonstrate the facts which compellingly indicate fraud, cover-up and conspiracy and we can go from there. Innuendo, assertion and distorted representations of reality are unacceptable substitutes for verifiable and objective fact in the types of claims you are making.

((EDIT addition - not sure why the broken link on the Times of India site, here is a link to the article - The Times of India on Mobile))

I know what kind of "facts" you are sitting on:

scare quotes aside, claiming to know what someone else knows before they themselves reveal that knowledge, is akin to claiming supernatural abilities. I'm sure this wasn't your intention, especially given the inaccurate nature of the information you assert as mine, but I would be happy to discuss these issues with you if that is your desire.

 

[Solius]

The models predicted the glaciers would grow

I swear

Models predict that authoritarians are repressed homosexuals... just sayin'

for realz!

You are an idiot, for realz.

Ooh, that one hit close to home, huh?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

But the only "evidence" the Warmers and Decline Hiders post are computer models, tree rings and fake hockey stick graphs...and that's supposed to end the debate?

Nah

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The models predicted the glaciers would grow

I swear

Models predict that authoritarians are repressed homosexuals... just sayin'

for realz!

I have some troll stuck to the bottom of my shoe