Give us Your tired.. yearning to Obey the Law.

[Navy1960]

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
EMMA LAZARUS; FAMOUS POEM :"THE NEW COLOSSUS"

I dare say there are many Americans today who's relatives long ago heard those words and came to this nation and are now part of the very fabric that makes this nation truley great. They stood in line and waited their turn to live the Ameircan dream so that one day their family could realize a life free to explore the bounds where their mind would take them. Many of those same immigrants helped craft the very laws we all live under today, they brought with them a sense of pride in their heritage and yet determined to become part of the American story and obey it's laws. This issue here in my state is not one of race no matter how much many would like it to be to promote hatred and divide us. The simple fact is that Arizona borders Mexico and the vast majority of those that enter this nation illegally are from that nation and from nations to the South of Mexico. No this issue is a moral one, and one that say's are we a nation of laws, a nation where the laws of the land are applied equally to it's citizens or are we a nation that is afraid to apply them because of a few who fear some word placed upon them for doing so. Think for a moment, what kind of message we send to ALL OF THOSE people, black, brown, white, doesn't matter who took the time to obey the laws of the land to come here to live that dream and did the hard work necessary to become citizens of this great nation if we simply just look the other way and allow people to enter our nation without enforcing the law. If this anger were real it would have been directed at the very laws that this bill intends to enforce and those are the same FEDERAL LAWS that have been in place for years and not an Arizona legislative bill who's sole purpose is to actually do what the Federal Govt. has chosen not to do. Think for a moment, if you will, in not enforcing the laws the Federal Govt. has allowed illegal immigration to become an institution in this nation , so much so that when that institution becomes threatened in anyway, people lash out ( Bill Mahr or whatever his name is for instance). In the ingorance of their duty to uphold the law the Federal Govt. has allowed licensed slavery to become the norm in this nation, where a person can come to this nation under the pretense of wanting to build a better life for themselves and yet do not even earn minimum wage and are allowed to be used as human cargo by the very people who sumggle them in to this nation for profit. That is what people support when they call out laws that simply mean to enforce existing Federal Law. Which I might add has years of legal backing to support State, Local , and County authorities doing just what the Arizona Law supposes to do. If you have passion for the people that wish to come here and work then direct your attention to Federal Law itself not the Law Officer that enforces it. It's a sad day when Americans have become such that we choose selectivly choose what laws apply to who and when. So when you start to toss around the R word , think of the number of Americans that have died as a result of people that had we just taken them time to enforce out own laws, would be here today, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, and Fathers, and yes Americans of all races and creeds.


Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
8 U.S.C. § 1325 : US Code - Section 1325: Improper entry by alien

So as I see it those opposed to SB-1070 are basically saying that the United States should have no borders at all? and those here illegally even if they are gang members (MS-13), drug dealers, rapists, terrorists, or even the poor migrant worker, doesn't matter because its a law that you as an opponent are oppsed too?

 

[Reidlr]

Very eloquently said!

I dare say that your words fall on many deaf ears. Though you post is accurate and very well spoken, the divide in this country is to great and one side will not listen to reason.

 

[Navy1960]

Very eloquently said!

I dare say that your words fall on many deaf ears. Though you post is accurate and very well spoken, the divide in this country is to great and one side will not listen to reason.

Thank you Reidlr, you know your post sort of reminded me of something I was talking about in here a little bit ago. I called it the team jersey concept, in that so many are eager to just wear the team jersey they sometimes leave reason on the sideline. I like to believe that Americans are for the most part a good and decent people and believe in fairness. You see thats where at least IMHO where the two sides tend to seperate myself included I suppose. Many would not disagree with the fairness of allowing for people who wish to come here legally and build a better life for themselves and their family, where it tends to go a little sideways if you ask me is the message that advocating for those that do not bother to stand in line but just ignore the law and do so anyway at the expense of those that are obeying the law. I would invite anyone to look at Lady Justice , the concept should be a "blind" one in that the laws are applied EQUALLY and fair to all, is the basic reason why I believe that calling ths a race issue is completly NOT what it is about at all, it is about fairness and expecting people to obey our laws. Each year many people from many nations take the time to obey our laws and go through the process of citizenship and they are from many nations and many ethnic backgrounds, when those that advocate on behalf of illegal immigration call out laws in the name of race they are also condemning all those who have bothered to obey our laws of ALL ETHNIC backgrounds, now thats a race issue if you really wanted one. If you want another lets talk about the institution that illegal immigration has become , so much so that most illegals are no more than American slaves living in poverty making little if any contribution to the community because they live in fear and are taken advantage of by their own. Want to know a good reason to enforce immigration , how about ending this slavery once and for all? See what I mean, it's a real shame at least IMO that some only see this through a single lens and one day will wake up to a United States that because of our Govts. apathy no different than the raging gun battles played out on the streets of border towns all over Mexico.

 

[José]

Give us your tired... yearning to cross the Sabine River ILLEGALY and take half of our southern neighbor's land by brute force...

 

[Reidlr]

Very eloquently said!

I dare say that your words fall on many deaf ears. Though you post is accurate and very well spoken, the divide in this country is to great and one side will not listen to reason.

Thank you Reidlr, you know your post sort of reminded me of something I was talking about in here a little bit ago. I called it the team jersey concept, in that so many are eager to just wear the team jersey they sometimes leave reason on the sideline. I like to believe that Americans are for the most part a good and decent people and believe in fairness. You see thats where at least IMHO where the two sides tend to seperate myself included I suppose. Many would not disagree with the fairness of allowing for people who wish to come here legally and build a better life for themselves and their family, where it tends to go a little sideways if you ask me is the message that advocating for those that do not bother to stand in line but just ignore the law and do so anyway at the expense of those that are obeying the law. I would invite anyone to look at Lady Justice , the concept should be a "blind" one in that the laws are applied EQUALLY and fair to all, is the basic reason why I believe that calling ths a race issue is completly NOT what it is about at all, it is about fairness and expecting people to obey our laws. Each year many people from many nations take the time to obey our laws and go through the process of citizenship and they are from many nations and many ethnic backgrounds, when those that advocate on behalf of illegal immigration call out laws in the name of race they are also condemning all those who have bothered to obey our laws of ALL ETHNIC backgrounds, now thats a race issue if you really wanted one. If you want another lets talk about the institution that illegal immigration has become , so much so that most illegals are no more than American slaves living in poverty making little if any contribution to the community because they live in fear and are taken advantage of by their own. Want to know a good reason to enforce immigration , how about ending this slavery once and for all? See what I mean, it's a real shame at least IMO that some only see this through a single lens and one day will wake up to a United States that because of our Govts. apathy no different than the raging gun battles played out on the streets of border towns all over Mexico.

Unfortunatly, what we are seeing today is a bi-product of our two party system. "Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings may become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals." Johann Wolfgang Goethe I believe you are right in assuming that we are a good people and I hope that fairness is still a virtue held by many in this country. The problem lies in the inability of most to see reason. Reason has been replaced and is now expressed solely through the political views of the party in which an individual has aligned himself with. I do, however, have to disagree in that illegal aliens are comparable to slaves. I must presume that not one single slave asked for his/her involuntary servitude. The current illegal alien has voluntarily entered our country of his/her on free accord and takes what he/she has offered to them. You are very correct in that the current immigration problem in this country is a simple matter of law. The rule of law is not political or racial, it is blind and true. The rule of law is that which keeps a country free from aggression and abuse. Unfortuanly, passions and politics have replaced law and now we are dealing with the consequences of our actions or lack there of. Those that say the new Arizona law is racial or "unfair" have allowed their passions and thier political views cloud their judgment. They no longer view the immigration laws utilizing reason and the rule of law, but rather they choose to politicize it. My only fear is that this country is on a path that will collide with history. Our country was divided due to political views at one time and it reached a penacle that resulted in a war. I fear that our two party system is again failing the American people and is leading us down a path that leads only to struggles and heartache. I conclude with this quote from our 16th President addressing a fragile United States that had been divided by political views and ideals.

"...in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution, the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever..." President Abraham Lincoln's First Inaugural Address March 4, 1861.

 

[California Girl]

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
EMMA LAZARUS; FAMOUS POEM :"THE NEW COLOSSUS"

I dare say there are many Americans today who's relatives long ago heard those words and came to this nation and are now part of the very fabric that makes this nation truley great. They stood in line and waited their turn to live the Ameircan dream so that one day their family could realize a life free to explore the bounds where their mind would take them. Many of those same immigrants helped craft the very laws we all live under today, they brought with them a sense of pride in their heritage and yet determined to become part of the American story and obey it's laws. This issue here in my state is not one of race no matter how much many would like it to be to promote hatred and divide us. The simple fact is that Arizona borders Mexico and the vast majority of those that enter this nation illegally are from that nation and from nations to the South of Mexico. No this issue is a moral one, and one that say's are we a nation of laws, a nation where the laws of the land are applied equally to it's citizens or are we a nation that is afraid to apply them because of a few who fear some word placed upon them for doing so. Think for a moment, what kind of message we send to ALL OF THOSE people, black, brown, white, doesn't matter who took the time to obey the laws of the land to come here to live that dream and did the hard work necessary to become citizens of this great nation if we simply just look the other way and allow people to enter our nation without enforcing the law. If this anger were real it would have been directed at the very laws that this bill intends to enforce and those are the same FEDERAL LAWS that have been in place for years and not an Arizona legislative bill who's sole purpose is to actually do what the Federal Govt. has chosen not to do. Think for a moment, if you will, in not enforcing the laws the Federal Govt. has allowed illegal immigration to become an institution in this nation , so much so that when that institution becomes threatened in anyway, people lash out ( Bill Mahr or whatever his name is for instance). In the ingorance of their duty to uphold the law the Federal Govt. has allowed licensed slavery to become the norm in this nation, where a person can come to this nation under the pretense of wanting to build a better life for themselves and yet do not even earn minimum wage and are allowed to be used as human cargo by the very people who sumggle them in to this nation for profit. That is what people support when they call out laws that simply mean to enforce existing Federal Law. Which I might add has years of legal backing to support State, Local , and County authorities doing just what the Arizona Law supposes to do. If you have passion for the people that wish to come here and work then direct your attention to Federal Law itself not the Law Officer that enforces it. It's a sad day when Americans have become such that we choose selectivly choose what laws apply to who and when. So when you start to toss around the R word , think of the number of Americans that have died as a result of people that had we just taken them time to enforce out own laws, would be here today, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, and Fathers, and yes Americans of all races and creeds.


Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
8 U.S.C. § 1325 : US Code - Section 1325: Improper entry by alien

So as I see it those opposed to SB-1070 are basically saying that the United States should have no borders at all? and those here illegally even if they are gang members (MS-13), drug dealers, rapists, terrorists, or even the poor migrant worker, doesn't matter because its a law that you as an opponent are oppsed too?

Navy, you are one of the - if not THE - best poster on this board. I'm just glad you're back. Your posts are so readable - even those who disagree with you should recognize an honorable man when they read your posts.

 

[José]

This thread is a joke.

The vast majority of white Americans living in the american Southwest are direct descendants of thousands of illegal american immigrants who never "stood in line and waited their turn to live in Mexico".

America owes her own existence as a nation and her entire territorial expansion to unauthorised/illegal immigration.

America never had a problem violating Mexico's immigration laws as well as her own laws. What we see today is the american federal government CHOOSING not to enforce them in order to please some segments of the american society.

This grotesque caricature of a law-abiding nation being victimised by hordes of illegal immigrants in the 21th century is just cheap nationalistic crap.

 

[The T]

Well stated, Navy. And to wit the maxim that We are a nation of LAW, not of Men.

 

[Mr Natural]

Fuck that!

Stay the hell home all you huddled masses, we got enough people here already.

No vacancy, we're full!

 

[José]

America, Mexico and every country in the world LOVE illegal immigration... provided they are not on the receiving end of it.

They have no problem with breaking foreign or domestic laws as long as they deem illegal immigration to be in their best interest.

Legal arguments that portray illegal immigrants as law breakers harming righteous, law-abiding societies is just a smokescreen, mindless propaganda that fits the pea-sized brain of the patriotic clown who swallows it.

 

[Angelhair]

The people who jump the border to come here illegally do NOT care about reason. All their lives they have had to struggle to survive. They see a country just north of them with so much that they lose ALL reason. Their main concern is to come here and stay at ALL costs. Once here, they just can't wrap their brain around what our laws say! They come from countries where following the law is no big deal as they see criminals get away with murder and never brougt to justice. Many have had to lie, cheat and steal to survive. You try to convince them that this is a country of laws and they just will NOT accept that! You try to convince them that they have to abide by our immigration laws and they call those laws unfair. They will NEVER understand ANY of it as their priority and dream has always been to come to 'el norte' for the 'american dream' and 'a bettter life' and are bound and determined to stay here at all cost and to keep coming. This country can't approach this problem by trying to please or appease those who break our laws. It has to do what it has to do to stop this flow and has to find a way to solve the problem without the help of the countries from which these people come. If it means passing laws as AZ has done, then so be it. Both parties are responsible for letting things get so far that now we are doing whatever possible to stem this invasion. Every law that is passed, will be scrutinized by thousands of lawyers, judges, et el to make sure it's within the constitution. If it is not, then fix it - BUT DO SOMETHING!!!

 

[José]

Where was all that almost religious respect the american society has for laws when thousands of illegal americans flocked to Mexico's northern provinces in the 19th century, Angel?

 

[WillowTree]

This thread is a joke.

The vast majority of white Americans living in the american Southwest are direct descendants of thousands of illegal american immigrants who never "stood in line and waited their turn to live in Mexico".

America owes her own existence as a nation and her entire territorial expansion to unauthorised/illegal immigration.

America never had a problem violating Mexico's immigration laws as well as her own laws. What we see today is the american federal government CHOOSING not to enforce them in order to please some segments of the american society.

This grotesque caricature of a law-abiding nation being victimised by hordes of illegal immigrants in the 21th century is just cheap nationalistic crap.

do you bitch about spain too horhe?

 

[Angelhair]

'Where was all that almost religious respect the american society has for laws when thousands of illegal americans flocked to Mexico's northern provinces in the 19th century, Angel?'

So what YOU are fighting still is what happened that long ago???? What do you want done about illegal entry if the feds refuse to do something in this century??? What can be done TODAY in the 21st century to change what happened in the 19th???? And would it make a difference now?

 

[José]

Originally posted by WillowTree
do you bitch about spain too horhe?

LOL... you just proved my whole point, kitten.

Spain did it (unauthorised immigration).

Britain did it.

Americans did it in Mexico a couple of centuries ago.

Mexicans do it in America now.

Without unauthorised/illegal immigration humans would still be in Africa. Just about any tribe, kingdom and nation state you can think of has used it. This is irrefutable evidence that legal and illegal immigration far from being a sociopathic conduct is a pattern of behavior hardwired into what we are.

OK, we already solidly established that illegal immigration is a consistent, absolutely normal trait observed in all peoples and in all societies throughout History.

Does this means 19th century Mexico should have done nothing and just watched as thousands of illegal Americans crossed its borders?? The same individuals who would steal half of its territory 13 years later?

Of course not!!

Does the fact that illegal immigration is a normal human behavior mean 21th century America should abolish her immigration laws and become an overcrowded balloon?

Should the US allow half of humanity or even half of Mexico to settle in its territory and watch its fantastic standard of living going down the pipe?

Absolutely not!!

The understanding that illegal immigration is a natural outgrowth of our human nature rather than an abhorrent behavior that must be severely punished should ONLY lead to the decriminalization of this practice on the part of democratic, open societies and the toning down of the rethoric directed at illegal immigrants.

Some people say:

As long as illegal immigrants are humanely detained and deported what's the problem with calling them criminals, parasites etc...?

The problem is that a society that refers to illegal immigrants as bandits, outlaws etc... creates a climate of intolerance, a social environment that is conducive to the criminalization of illegal immigration which is the hallmark of tyrannical, totalitarian societies that value national borders over human rights.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Angelhair
What can be done TODAY in the 21st century to change what happened in the 19th???? And would it make a difference now?

Nothing can be done to change the past, Angel. That region now rightfully belong to America and the country has every right to enforce its immigration laws including mass deportations of recently arrived immigrants.

The only lesson to be drawn from the way America acquired its western region is the need to treat illegal immigrants humanely and tone down the rethoric.

 

[Angelhair]

This country treats illegals a lot more humanly than Mexico and all other countries treats their illegals. There is no reason for this country to feel any guilt regarding that. The rhetoric that should be toned down is coming from the left the likes of the Sharptons, Jacksons, mainstream media, etc. If people were to use common sense instead a letting emotions get in the way, the problem to resolve this illegal problem would be very simple.

 

[Navy1960]

You know Jose after reading all of your posts on the thread I started here, I have come to the conclusion that you misunderstand my post somewhat. I could not agree more that the heated talk on both sides of this issue solves nothing , especially when the people caught in the middle are for the most part caught in a system that uses them for cheap labor or political gain, thats a fact Jose and those people because of the apathy on the part of our Federal Govt. that has allowed this to become an institution are trapped in a sanctioned slavery. Thats the real racism here not the heated talk of a state and or Officer of the law trying to enforce Federal Law. What I as trying to point out is that simply applying the law to this situation will go a long way in solving the issue. There are thousands upon thousands of people that go through the immigration system each year to become citzens and simply looking the other way, because of some historical claim on the Southwest is another way to send the wrong message. I suggest that if the people are upset about the American Southwest being the hands of the United States they address the issue with the Mexican Govt. that signed the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. On a side note, I was always under the impression that if any peoples were to make a rightful claim on this land it would not be hispanics or anglo decendents but rather the Native Americans that have lived here for thousands of years. Arizona as well as the United States has in your words every right to enforce their own laws and apply them equally to all those here including the same people who disregard them. While I recognize the hispanic heritage of the Southwest of course, that is not reason enough to simply advocate for the application of law in an unfair way. Sure the system to citizenship is a mess and often times confusing and expensive and needs to be fixed so that people who really want to come here and contribute can, but it's hard to tell those that participate in that system that they must when others ignore it and some Americans are willing to help them ignore it.

 

[Angelhair]

The USA allow more AUTHORIZED immigrants from MEXICO than it does from any other country. The problem is that many people in that country get so desperate to come here that they do not want to wait in line so they 'jump the fence'.

 

[Defiant1]

As much as I love Lady Liberty, maybe it's time for her to retire. She's of an era that has long past.

I'd like to see her replaced with a statue of W. as he stood on the rubble in NYC after 911.

"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."