Gitmo Justice.

[Navy1960]

Ok, you're on the other side now with me.

So please explain how they are equal to being a POW.

FYI....we tortured terrorists under Bush and it is ok. Torturing scum to their death would be better than giving them some show trial for their followers.

You are the fucking idiot.

We did not torture anyone. We used enhanced interrogation. Big difference... except it idiotic, overly hysterical left wingers who think dropping water on someone's face is inflicting excessive pain.

You are being overly emotional. That's fine, but it tends to make you look silly. I prefer measured, rational thought.

Whens the last time you were water boarded? Was it pleasant? Would you want to go through it again?

any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture

http://www.un.org/millennium/law/iv-9.htm

We agreed to the convention. UNTC

therefore using waterboarding, a form of torture, is unlawful.

Now check out the video on the bottom of this page:

HowStuffWorks "What is water boarding?"

and thats not even water boarding. Thats MILD and they couldnt last long at all. They all gave up.





lets look at actual water boarding now.

and this one, conservative talkshow host ManCow gets waterboarded after saying repeatedly that waterboarding IS NOT TORTURE:

water boarding - Bing Videos

and thats for demonstating purposes. In a safe enviorment. where NO ONE is actually trying to get information out of him. Six seconds, it took him to go from its not torture to it IS torture.

Water boarding is TORTURE. Period.

I agree completely that Water Boarding is Torture, so then that begs the question, what then is planning, carrying out, and engaging in the deaths of thousands of of innocent lives by all means, that often times result in horrible injuries to those who survive these attacks? If then if we are to conclude that these individuals are accorded the protections offered them under the Geneva Convention, then as a result one could argue that the following is also true.

Common Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

So then the question is a Military trial consistant with this article ? One can argue that the trials at Nuremburg as well those conducted by Allied Powers in the Pacific on Japanese POW's would say yes. If no, then my suggestion to this would be the following, accord these people rights under the Geneva convention and as such release them when Terrorism is at an end? Which both you and I know will never happen. So then it becomes a life sentence anyway. Water Boarding is and of itself an irresponsible method by wich one gains or seeks to gain information that is often times not reliable and runs contrary to the Field Manual as it relates to the treatment of those captured on the battlefield as well as it gives a reason for those Americans who may find themselves in a similar situation for their captors to do the same to them. However Water Boarding is not an excuse for the the clear reasons why these men find themselves at Gitmo and before a Court.

 

[GoneBezerk]

You don't know shit.

You never went through SERE school and you don't have a security clearance, you're just an internet blowhard.

You haven't talked with anyone that knows what has gone on....

Is it a victory for them? Really? I don't think so. I think it shows the rest of the world - and particularly the ME and Islamic countries... that we behave better than them.

Try them, find them guilty, sentence them to LWOP and be done with it.

Then, make it known that... from now on, regardless of who is our President... that America will bomb the fuck out of any country that harbors our enemies. That there will be no more Mr Nice Guy.

Your perspective is in error. It isn't a matter of showing the world that we behave better than they do. It's about power and control. These muslims took a two hour hearing and stretched it to 13 hours. They have manipulated the defense attorney into demanding that all women in the courtroom wear the abeya. They can make the court adjust proceedings to suit them. And, they don't have to do anything at all. They can be as disruptive as possible, mock the proceedings, and disrupt as much as they can. By getting away with it, they have total control over what happens in the courtroom.

My perspective is mine... it's observation based on fact.... it can't be wrong... you can disagree with it. Thinking that 'perspective' equates to 'fact' demonstrates that you have intellectual issues.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Giving this scum military trials makes them legitimate like a normal soldier. They are not worthy of being treated like a soldier, thus should've been tortured in some blackhole site until they were no longer worth any intel and executed.

Instead we paraded them out as war trophies, so being PC we have to give them trials to look "civilized" to the world.

Next time it's better to capture them and not tell anyone we got them, so their friends will try to contact them (catch them too) and eventually they all can be tortured to death which sends a message to any idiot that wants to follow them to this death.

A CIA agent in charge of the interrogations said the terrorists were expecting a lawyer and were shocked when they were slapped around using basic techniques used in SERE school. They don't fear us because they know there are idiots here that will defend their right to a lawyer and fair treatment, even a jail sentence with no threat of death. Everyone fears death.....

 

[Sunni Man]

The people captured on the battle field and sent to Gitmo were citizen soldiers.

Just the same as Minute Men captured by the British during the American revolution were citizen soldiers.

Both were defending their people and fighting for their country.

This new artificial designation of so called "enemy combatant" is very disingenuous and only makes out judicial system look hypocritical and basically idiotic.

 

[GoneBezerk]

Wrong, many are foreign terrorists that flocked to Iraq and Afghanistan to kill Americans, coalition members and locals that didn't bow down to them.

They are not people fighting for their country in most cases, they are international terrorists that kill anyone that gets in their way.

They don't deserve any fair treatement under the Geneva Conventions because they are NOT legitimate soldiers fighting for a country under the rules of international law. Blowing up innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq or anywhere isn't following the rules of war.

The people captured on the battle field and sent to Gitmo were citizen soldiers.

Just the same as Minute Men captured by the British during the American revolution were citizen soldiers.

Both were defending their people and fighting for their country.

 

[Vidi]

Giving this scum military trials makes them legitimate like a normal soldier. They are not worthy of being treated like a soldier, thus should've been tortured in some blackhole site until they were no longer worth any intel and executed.

Instead we paraded them out as war trophies, so being PC we have to give them trials to look "civilized" to the world.

Next time it's better to capture them and not tell anyone we got them, so their friends will try to contact them (catch them too) and eventually they all can be tortured to death which sends a message to any idiot that wants to follow them to this death.

A CIA agent in charge of the interrogations said the terrorists were expecting a lawyer and were shocked when they were slapped around using basic techniques used in SERE school. They don't fear us because they know there are idiots here that will defend their right to a lawyer and fair treatment, even a jail sentence with no threat of death. Everyone fears death.....

wrong. Everyone does not fear death. Some see death as merely a transition to the next life and if they did the will of God during this life they will be rewarded.

As far as the "scum" being legitimate soldiers, they are as legitimate as the minutemen were or the French underground fighters were in WWII. Not all soldiers wear the uniform of a sovreign nation.

Funny thing is...Im not against torture per se. I am however against dishonesty.

 

[GoneBezerk]

You're full of shit. Everyone that was waterboarded reacted in fear.

Everyone fears death when they are not in control.

As for comparing terrorists to the people defending France from the Nazis or Americans defending this country from the British invaders.....you are now one of the dumbest people on this board.

When someone from Yemen is captured in afghanistan.....you have a hard time claiming they're defending their home like the French.

Giving this scum military trials makes them legitimate like a normal soldier. They are not worthy of being treated like a soldier, thus should've been tortured in some blackhole site until they were no longer worth any intel and executed.

Instead we paraded them out as war trophies, so being PC we have to give them trials to look "civilized" to the world.

Next time it's better to capture them and not tell anyone we got them, so their friends will try to contact them (catch them too) and eventually they all can be tortured to death which sends a message to any idiot that wants to follow them to this death.

A CIA agent in charge of the interrogations said the terrorists were expecting a lawyer and were shocked when they were slapped around using basic techniques used in SERE school. They don't fear us because they know there are idiots here that will defend their right to a lawyer and fair treatment, even a jail sentence with no threat of death. Everyone fears death.....

wrong. Everyone does not fear death. Some see death as merely a transition to the next life and if they did the will of God during this life they will be rewarded.

As far as the "scum" being legitimate soldiers, they are as legitimate as the minutemen were or the French underground fighters were in WWII. Not all soldiers wear the uniform of a sovreign nation.

Funny thing is...Im not against torture per se. I am however against dishonesty.

 

[Sunni Man]

Throughout our history Americans have volunteered to fight in foreign was across the globe.

Americans fought in the Spanish Civil War in which Hemmingway wrote about when he was a soldier there.

The Flying Tigers AVG in China would be another example.

When American's were captured they were treated as soldiers.

And released when the war concluded.

Yet, we invent a new category called enemy combatant and imprison these citizen soldier indefinitely.

Heck, even the hated Nazi SS soldiers were given either a trial or released after WWII

 

[Vidi]

You're full of shit. Everyone that was waterboarded reacted in fear.

Everyone fears death when they are not in control.

As for comparing terrorists to the people defending France from the Nazis or Americans defending this country from the British invaders.....you are now one of the dumbest people on this board.

When someone from Yemen is captured in afghanistan.....you have a hard time claiming their defending their home like the French.

Giving this scum military trials makes them legitimate like a normal soldier. They are not worthy of being treated like a soldier, thus should've been tortured in some blackhole site until they were no longer worth any intel and executed.

Instead we paraded them out as war trophies, so being PC we have to give them trials to look "civilized" to the world.

Next time it's better to capture them and not tell anyone we got them, so their friends will try to contact them (catch them too) and eventually they all can be tortured to death which sends a message to any idiot that wants to follow them to this death.

A CIA agent in charge of the interrogations said the terrorists were expecting a lawyer and were shocked when they were slapped around using basic techniques used in SERE school. They don't fear us because they know there are idiots here that will defend their right to a lawyer and fair treatment, even a jail sentence with no threat of death. Everyone fears death.....

wrong. Everyone does not fear death. Some see death as merely a transition to the next life and if they did the will of God during this life they will be rewarded.

As far as the "scum" being legitimate soldiers, they are as legitimate as the minutemen were or the French underground fighters were in WWII. Not all soldiers wear the uniform of a sovreign nation.

Funny thing is...Im not against torture per se. I am however against dishonesty.

ahhh see now youre placing qualifiers on it. - when theyre not in control -

and whos full of shit?

You cant possibly believe that the presence of American troops on their home turf would be seen as a good thing by EVERYONE, do you? You cant possibly be THAT myopic. Or maybe you are.

 

[GoneBezerk]

What country does a Yemeni terrorist blowing people up around the globe represent????

The US executed Germans that snuck into the US to blow up places during WWII because they were viewed as terrorists/criminals, not soldiers.

If you are acting outside the rules of war and don't fall under the flag of a country in battle....then you are a rogue fighter, a terrorist. You are not a POW when captured because you have shown you will not stop fighting when released like a common soldier fored to fight in a war.

Nobody forced them to blow people up, so they don't have any rights.

Throughout our history Americans have volunteered to fight in foreign was across the globe.

Americans fought in the Spanish Civil War in which Hemmingway wrote about when he was a soldier there.

The Flying Tigers AVG in China would be another example.

When American's were captured they were treated as soldiers.

And released when the war concluded.

Yet, we invent a new category called enemy combatant and imprison these citizen soldier indefinitely.

Heck, even the hated Nazi SS soldiers were given either a trial or released after WWII

 

[GoneBezerk]

Idiot, the Taliban that helped support the 9/11 attacks caused the situation of us invading their country and helping their internal enemies take back control of the country.

It's not as if everyone in the country hates us, the Taliban and the idiots that follow them are against us whereas many are happy when came there to help them.

Maybe you're ok with the Taliban executing people in soccer fields, allowing men to rape women, etc....idiot.

You're full of shit. Everyone that was waterboarded reacted in fear.

Everyone fears death when they are not in control.

As for comparing terrorists to the people defending France from the Nazis or Americans defending this country from the British invaders.....you are now one of the dumbest people on this board.

When someone from Yemen is captured in afghanistan.....you have a hard time claiming their defending their home like the French.

wrong. Everyone does not fear death. Some see death as merely a transition to the next life and if they did the will of God during this life they will be rewarded.

As far as the "scum" being legitimate soldiers, they are as legitimate as the minutemen were or the French underground fighters were in WWII. Not all soldiers wear the uniform of a sovreign nation.

Funny thing is...Im not against torture per se. I am however against dishonesty.

ahhh see now youre placing qualifiers on it. - when theyre not in control -

and whos full of shit?

You cant possibly believe that the presence of American troops on their home turf would be seen as a good thing by EVERYONE, do you? You cant possibly be THAT myopic. Or maybe you are.

 

[Sunni Man]

Most Taliban knew nothing about 9/11

They were just patriotic citizen soldiers defending their country against an invading army.

Much like American citizens did during the Revolutionary War.

And should be treated with the same respect as any other captured enemy soldier.

 

[Vidi]

Idiot, the Taliban that helped support the 9/11 attacks caused the situation of us invading their country and helping their internal enemies take back control of the country.

It's not as if everyone in the country hates us, the Taliban and the idiots that follow them are against us whereas many are happy when came there to help them.

Maybe you're ok with the Taliban executing people in soccer fields, allowing men to rape women, etc....idiot.

You're full of shit. Everyone that was waterboarded reacted in fear.

Everyone fears death when they are not in control.

As for comparing terrorists to the people defending France from the Nazis or Americans defending this country from the British invaders.....you are now one of the dumbest people on this board.

When someone from Yemen is captured in afghanistan.....you have a hard time claiming their defending their home like the French.

ahhh see now youre placing qualifiers on it. - when theyre not in control -

and whos full of shit?

You cant possibly believe that the presence of American troops on their home turf would be seen as a good thing by EVERYONE, do you? You cant possibly be THAT myopic. Or maybe you are.

Did I say ANY of that? Youve extrpolated from not every soldier wears a uniform to I sanction rape. Thats quite a stretch of stupid youve got there.

We had the right to invade a country that supported the people that attacked us. No dount about that. And yes, some people there would actually support our invasion.

But like I said, I do not support dishonesty. And its dishonest to believe that everyone in a country we invade, even legitimately, would be on OUR side. That NO ONE would fight against us.

maybe you believed the liberator propaganda, but the rest of us actually thought it through and put opurselves in the place of the invaded and knew we would fight ANYONE who tried to take our country from us.

 

[California Girl]

You don't know shit.

You never went through SERE school and you don't have a security clearance, you're just an internet blowhard.

You haven't talked with anyone that knows what has gone on....

Your perspective is in error. It isn't a matter of showing the world that we behave better than they do. It's about power and control. These muslims took a two hour hearing and stretched it to 13 hours. They have manipulated the defense attorney into demanding that all women in the courtroom wear the abeya. They can make the court adjust proceedings to suit them. And, they don't have to do anything at all. They can be as disruptive as possible, mock the proceedings, and disrupt as much as they can. By getting away with it, they have total control over what happens in the courtroom.

My perspective is mine... it's observation based on fact.... it can't be wrong... you can disagree with it. Thinking that 'perspective' equates to 'fact' demonstrates that you have intellectual issues.

You're using emotion rather than rational thought. That's fine but it tends to make you look kind of silly.

No, I haven't been through SERE, but I know plenty who have. I know several who have quite high security clearance.... but, unlike you, I don't feel I have to prove anything.... and I certainly don't talk about who they are and what they do.

 

[Navy1960]

Again, we can all agree these men that are on trial at Gitmo are indeed terrible human beings or at least I hope so. Having said that, our nation has a long history of processing those captured on the battlefield within the US Military system of justice, be it turning those captured NVA,V/C over to the ARVN, or as in WW2 hold them in POW Camps and then set trials for those who were the worst offenders. There is much debate over the use of water-boarding as means to get information from these individuals and if the use of that method is a form of "torture". Many within the Naval community consider as such, including former Capt. John McCain . While the technique is used at S.E.R.E. school for Naval aviators one might stop to consider that it is an infomation gathering technique. We as a nation have in the past hanged Japanese Officers in WW2 for using water-boarding on American personnel and have ourselves considered it a form of torture. It is my humble opinion that the technique itself garners little in information that can be used and often times results in information that is given to simply stop the water-boarding itself. As such it is not only unreliable but also opens US Military personnel to the same technique by any potential adversary. Contrary to what Mr. Rodriguez may claim there is enough evidence out there to suggest that his claims are somewhat suspect and there are many agencies that are in direct conflict with his claims when it comes to this subject. Having said all this, our actions in the field or at these so called "Black Site", does not excuse the actions of these men that now find themselves in the hands of the US Military and on trial. They are and should be held responsible for their actions and Gitmo is the right venue for that. I do submit that those who wish these men to be treated under the Geneva Accords, would be perfectly fine with me, in that if we were to be consistant with our actions in previous conflicts then at then end of the war on terror , we have the same trial for these men we have had for other war criminals or simply wait till the end of "Terrorism" in order to release them. One way or the other they get the punishment they deserve.