Getting Rich

[mattskramer]

Whether or not one is stating their own business, it's easier to come from higher income. Getting a job, any job, connections help.

Again I comment, it appears you are saying that most successful are deceiving liars.

I don’t know what the statistics are. There are probably many people whose value system prevents them from being dishonest. I simply continue to contend that I think that it would be easier to get ahead by being dishonest. If you want to be more successful, then cut corners and have connections with people who can pull strings for you.

 

[Annie]

I don’t know what the statistics are. There are probably many people whose value system prevents them from being dishonest. I simply continue to contend that I think that it would be easier to get ahead by being dishonest. If you want to be more successful, then cut corners and have connections with people who can pull strings for you.

Why? Are you saying I'm dishonest if I contact people that are friends of my friends or family to get a position?

Would I be 'more honest' if I didn't?

 

[mattskramer]

Why? Are you saying I'm dishonest if I contact people that are friends of my friends or family to get a position?

Would I be 'more honest' if I didn't?

Would you have no problem with your coworker get promoted merely because she happens to have been, and continues to be the bosses best friend and closest relative? Would you have no problem with the owner of a business with which you compete asking a fried in Washington to change the rules so that his business gets an advantage over yours? Should you be judged on your own merits or on who you know?

 

[Annie]

Would you have no problem with your coworker get promoted merely because she happens to have been, and continues to be the bosses best friend and closest relative? Would you have no problem with the owner of a business with which you compete asking a fried in Washington to change the rules so that his business gets an advantage over yours? Should you be judged on your own merits or on who you know?

Answer my question first.

 

[mattskramer]

Why? Are you saying I'm dishonest if I contact people that are friends of my friends or family to get a position?

Would I be 'more honest' if I didn't?

Would you have no problem with your coworker get promoted merely because she happens to have been, and continues to be the bosses best friend and closest relative? Would you have no problem with the owner of a business with which you compete asking a fried in Washington to change the rules so that his business gets an advantage over yours? Should you be judged on your own merits or on who you know?

“Hey Clinton baby, remember me from Enron? Say, I’m in financial trouble, would you and your people in Washington help me out? Get some rules changed or pass some legislation.”

“Well, Kenny, my old friend, I’ll see what I can do.”

“Hey Bush baby, remember me? Say, I’m in financial trouble, would you and your people in Washington help me out? Get some rules changed or pass some legislation.”

I think that garbage like this happens more often than most people imagine, and it is simply unethical and wrong.

 

[mattskramer]

Why? Are you saying I'm dishonest if I contact people that are friends of my friends or family to get a position?

Would I be 'more honest' if I didn't?

Yes, it would be wrong unless your promotion was also based on merit – that you actually and honestly out-performed other people.

 

[Annie]

Yes, it would be wrong unless your promotion was also based on merit – that you actually and honestly out-performed other people.

Ok, assuming I'm qualified, which I am btw, why would I not pass my resume onto friends of friends/family, knowing I'm more likely to come to the top of a pile. After that, it's up to me to sell myself.

Now you are in school from what I read yesterday, if someone can help you get an interview, you're going to say, "No thanks. If my resume/cover letter doesn't cut it, my wife and I will just keep trying."

In my position there are often 300 or more applicants to position. A fraction get the interview. I've already got my hearing against me, if I can cop the interview. Trust me, I'd use any and all means. Won't get me the position, that's up to me, but I'll take the interview.

 

[mattskramer]

Ok, assuming I'm qualified, which I am btw, why would I not pass my resume onto friends of friends/family, knowing I'm more likely to come to the top of a pile. After that, it's up to me to sell myself.

Now you are in school from what I read yesterday, if someone can help you get an interview, you're going to say, "No thanks. If my resume/cover letter doesn't cut it, my wife and I will just keep trying."

In my position there are often 300 or more applicants to position. A fraction get the interview. I've already got my hearing against me, if I can cop the interview. Trust me, I'd use any and all means. Won't get me the position, that's up to me, but I'll take the interview.

Okay. I think that I see your point. All things being equal, I have no problem with friends helping friends get jobs. I do have a problem with friends helping friends skirt the system and get unfair preferential treatment when they are otherwise undeserving and under-qualified.

 

[jillian]

Okay. I think that I see your point. All things being equal, I have no problem with friends helping friends get jobs. I do have a problem with friends helping friends skirt the system and get unfair preferential treatment when they are otherwise undeserving and under-qualified.

Guess what... everybody who can gets help from people they know.... everybody. But I will tell you what my dad said to me when he helped me get my first real summer job... he said "I can help you *get* the job. Only *you* can keep it". Does that make you feel better? Because that's the honest truth.

As Kathianne said, there are tons of people seeking each position. Anything that helps separate you from everyone else is something you should use.

Also, frankly, reality check... not everyone who gets helped is good enough for the job (see Brownie's inability to have FEMA effectively handle Katrina because he wasn't equipped for the job). Ultimately, they get found out, though.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

It seems to me that it would be much easier if you have connections, can bribe authorities, can push the envelope in deceiving customers, and know how to cut your losses if you get caught.

Sure, it would be easier to lie, cheat, steal but any person with a conscious wouldn't be able to sleep at night for indulging in such practices.

I understand your reasoning in bribes but would you consider taking a potential client a gift certificate a bribe, in order to get a contract? I wouldn't. Also, what's wrong with connections? Let's say that you have a business and a good friend of yours is in charge of sales from one of your potential vendors. If you were offered an order of 10000 boxes for 89 cents a piece from your friend OR 99 cents a box from someone you didn't know what would you do? Of course, you take the offer from your friend in order to keep costs down. Nothing unethical about that.

Lieing to customers, I'm 100 percent with you there.

 

[Bern80]

I don’t know what the statistics are. There are probably many people whose value system prevents them from being dishonest. I simply continue to contend that I think that it would be easier to get ahead by being dishonest. If you want to be more successful, then cut corners and have connections with people who can pull strings for you.

Of course it would. That doesn't make it true statistically. I can say with a high degree of certainty that it isn't.

 

[mattskramer]

Sure, it would be easier to lie, cheat, steal but any person with a conscious wouldn't be able to sleep at night for indulging in such practices.

I understand your reasoning in bribes but would you consider taking a potential client a gift certificate a bribe, in order to get a contract? I wouldn't. Also, what's wrong with connections? Let's say that you have a business and a good friend of yours is in charge of sales from one of your potential vendors. If you were offered an order of 10000 boxes for 89 cents a piece from your friend OR 99 cents a box from someone you didn't know what would you do? Of course, you take the offer from your friend in order to keep costs down. Nothing unethical about that.

Lieing to customers, I'm 100 percent with you there.

All things being equal and above board, I have no objection to friends helping friends out. Otherwise, it falls to cronyism. Examples include Bush nominating of Harriet Miers to the US Supreme Court when she had no previous judicial experience and demonstrated little knowledge of constitutional law. The appointment of Michael D. Brown to the head of FEMA could also be considered a case of cronyism as Brown had no experience pertaining to his job.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

 

[Bern80]

All things being equal and above board, I have no objection to friends helping friends out. Otherwise, it falls to cronyism. Examples include Bush nominating of Harriet Miers to the US Supreme Court when she had no previous judicial experience and demonstrated little knowledge of constitutional law. The appointment of Michael D. Brown to the head of FEMA could also be considered a case of cronyism as Brown had no experience pertaining to his job.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

Which is a perfect example 'friends in high places' crosses over into the unfair terrirtory. Recomending friends for jobs, etc. requires a level of prefossionalism that recognizes whether someone is actually qualified or not. If they aren't, you're just setting the person up for failure.

 

[Mr.Conley]

So Matts, business owners are inherently evil? Dishonest? Priviledged?

You may not like it, but I really think everything Matt added right there is true. Any and all of those skills are very useful in accumulating wealth. They're not the only factors- one can 'get rich' both honestly and dishonestly- but it certainly doesn't hurt to know how to manipulate the system.

 

[William Joyce]

I'd add a few more:

12. Knowing how best to deceive.

13. Knowing how to work the legal system so that if you get caught committing fraud and corruption, you get little more than a slap on the wrist.

14. Having powerful friends (or buying influential friends) in high positions of authority to help you out.

I'll buy these, to the extent that I think pushing moral and ethical boundaries is part of getting rich. Nobody who is totally squeamish about that gets rich, I am pretty sure.

 

[Bern80]

You may not like it, but I really think everything Matt added right there is true. Any and all of those skills are very useful in accumulating wealth. They're not the only factors- one can 'get rich' both honestly and dishonestly- but it certainly doesn't hurt to know how to manipulate the system.

Sure, those are all ways one could get rich. And you may not like it, bust most Americans have a horribly skewed notion of a) 'who' actually makes up 'the rich' and b) how they got to be rich.

I posted an excerpt, I think in this thread from the book, 'The Millionaire Next Door', which is really interesting and what many of you cynics really need to read before you start passing judgement on something you seem to know little about.

 

[Mr.Conley]

Sure, those are all ways one could get rich. And you may not like it, bust most Americans have a horribly skewed notion of a) 'who' actually makes up 'the rich' and b) how they got to be rich.

I think you're putting me in the wrong camp. I support the capitalist system, but I'm not blind to its rough edges either.

I posted an excerpt, I think in this thread from the book, 'The Millionaire Next Door', which is really interesting and what many of you cynics really need to read before you start passing judgement on something you seem to know little about.

I've read 'The Millionaire Next Door' before. Good book, especially for people looking to increase there net worth. Then again, a million dollars just ain't what it used to be. At this point, I wouldn't characterize the people in the book as rich, 'merely' affluent as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bern80]

I think you're putting me in the wrong camp. I support the capitalist system, but I'm not blind to its rough edges either.

fair enough. I'm not blind to them either. I simply don't think said rough edges are as prevalent as some beleive.

I've read 'The Millionaire Next Door' before. Good book, especially for people looking to increase there net worth. Then again, a million dollars just ain't what it used to be. At this point, I wouldn't characterize the people in the book as rich, 'merely' affluent as far as I'm concerned.

I came away with that too. The book defines 'millionaire' as simply haveing a net worth of a million dollars. If all your assetts equal a million dollars, then you're a millionaire. I think there's an irony then that a lot of people who complain about the rich are rich themselves as the book would define them.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I'd add a few more:

12. Knowing how best to deceive.

13. Knowing how to work the legal system so that if you get caught committing fraud and corruption, you get little more than a slap on the wrist.

14. Having powerful friends (or buying influential friends) in high positions of authority to help you out.

I think you'd find those qualities also among the chronically poor, the welfare abusers, drug abusers, and thieves as well - so what's your point? Seems to me there is an extra ingredient to be had for those that really make it - whether they are above the law or not.