Germany Still Doesn't Get It

Annie

Diamond Member
Nov 22, 2003
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One of our 'previous allies' that we would be best off casting away:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051220/wl_nm/lebanon_germany_prisoner_dc



Germany frees jailed Hizbollah man wanted by US

By Louis Charbonneau 36 minutes ago

Germany has quietly released a Hizbollah member jailed for life for the murder of a U.S. Navy diver, apparently disregarding Washington's wish to extradite him, diplomats and German officials said on Tuesday.

"He served his term," Eva Schmierer, a spokeswoman for Germany's justice ministry, told a news conference.

Sources in Berlin and Beirut said earlier that Mohammad Ali Hammadi, convicted of killing Navy diver Robert Dean Stethem in Beirut during the 1985 hijacking of a TWA flight and sentenced to life in prison, was flown back to Lebanon last week.

German legal sources said he had been released on Thursday and travelled to the Lebanese capital on Friday. Hizbollah sources confirmed that Hammadi had returned.

Schmierer said her ministry had never received a formal extradition request from Washington. But diplomats in Berlin said the German government was well aware that the Americans would have liked Hammadi extradited to the United States, where he is under indictment for Stethem's murder.

The diplomats said Hammadi's release could complicate relations between Germany and the United States, which have pledged to cooperate closely in anti-terrorism efforts.

The U.S. embassy in Berlin had no immediate comment on Hammadi's release.

Hammadi, now in his late 30s, was captured in 1987 and all attempts to have him exchanged with German hostages held in Lebanon in the late 1980s and early 1990s failed.

Hammadi's brother, Abdul-Hadi, was a senior security official of Hizbollah at the time.

A Lebanese source said a senior German intelligence officer visited Damascus early this month but did not disclose the purpose of the trip. Syria is a key backer of Hizbollah.

A German court convicted Hammadi in 1989 of murder, air piracy and other crimes for his role in the June 1985 hijacking of the TWA passenger jet that was diverted to Beirut and Algiers. The court sentenced him to life in prison.

His life sentence was one that Germany reserves for the most serious and cruel crimes, but it did not necessarily require that he spend the rest of his natural life in jail.

Stethem, a native of Waldorf, Maryland, was based in Virginia Beach, Virginia, at the time of the hijacking.

HAMMADI FOR OSTHOFF?

Hammadi's other brother, Abbas Ali, was sentenced to 13 years in prison for plotting the kidnapping of two Germans in Lebanon in the hope of forcing the release of his brother. He was released after serving his term.

Hammadi's release occurred shortly before German hostage Susanne Osthoff was freed in Iraq. The archaeologist had disappeared on November 25. Germany said on Sunday she was in safe custody. She has made no public statement since.


The German Foreign Ministry denied any link between the Hammadi and Osthoff releases.

"There is no connection between these two cases," Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Jaeger said.

Doris Moeller-Scheu, spokeswoman for the Frankfurt prosecutors office also denied any link. She said Hammadi was released after a standard review of his case.

Under German law, he became eligible for release after serving 15 years. He spent over 18 years in jail in Germany.
 
I got into an arument on another board a bit ago. On this board was an European, a Brit I think. He said America has lost all it's allies and they what we got in return was Togo, Latvia, and Poland. I replied that Togo, Latvia and Poland do about as much for us militarily as Germany, France, and Russia; they agree with us far more often; and when they don't agree with us they don't actively work against us. So in effect yes, I would rather have them as allies.
 
reason to be teed off at us right now. El Masri, the apparently innocent German citizen who was "rendered" to Egypt by the U.S., where he was treated brutally, has been big news over there. Just another example of how Bush's outrageous views on torture, secret prisons, rendition, and deprivation of prisoners' human and legal rights lowers our standing in the rest of the world--the exact opposite of what we're supposedly trying to accomplish. "How to lose friends and create enemies" would be a good title for Bush's overall international policy. Anyone notice how even as the war in Iraq is supposedly being won, the "coalition of the willing" has been shrinking?

Mariner.
 
Mariner said:
reason to be teed off at us right now. El Masri, the apparently innocent German citizen who was "rendered" to Egypt by the U.S., where he was treated brutally, has been big news over there. Just another example of how Bush's outrageous views on torture, secret prisons, rendition, and deprivation of prisoners' human and legal rights lowers our standing in the rest of the world--the exact opposite of what we're supposedly trying to accomplish. "How to lose friends and create enemies" would be a good title for Bush's overall international policy. Anyone notice how even as the war in Iraq is supposedly being won, the "coalition of the willing" has been shrinking?

Mariner.


Well then. I hope those nations Don't call us up for help, when the terrorist decide to attact them. :cry:
 
I have little doubt this was directly connected with the freed hostage.

Btw, the guided missile destroyer that bears Stethem's name is in my battle group (7th Fleet). What a rich irony it would be if this knucklehead were to go back to his old ways in a place like Iraq or Afghanistan and a missile from one of this battle group's planes or ships was the one that sent him to this 72 whores.....

We should just pay one of the militia groups in Lebanon to kill him, if we can't do it ourselves.

Known and convicted terrorists like him should get no retrial, no prison time, no remorse, just a bullet in the head. They signed away their humanity when they committed terrorist acts.
 
NATO AIR said:
I have little doubt this was directly connected with the freed hostage.

Btw, the guided missile destroyer that bears Stethem's name is in my battle group (7th Fleet). What a rich irony it would be if this knucklehead were to go back to his old ways in a place like Iraq or Afghanistan and a missile from one of this battle group's planes or ships was the one that sent him to this 72 whores.....

We should just pay one of the militia groups in Lebanon to kill him, if we can't do it ourselves.

Known and convicted terrorists like him should get no retrial, no prison time, no remorse, just a bullet in the head. They signed away their humanity when they committed terrorist acts.

you are one violent dude, NATO....not that I disagree with you!
 
One man's terrorist is another man's "Freedom Fighter."

Did you read the post where I related some of the history I've been learning about the formation of the state of Israel? The Arabs were driven off their land in large part by Israeli terrorism, led by Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan. Entire villages were razed. In one village, 250 innocent civilians, including children and elderly people, were butchered and mutilated. The Israeli terrorists also bombed British facilities, killing 91 people in one incident. All of this predated a single act of Palestinian terrorism in Israel.

Or, remember Ronald Reagan's Freedom Fighters in Nicaragua?

From the British point of view, the American Revolutionaries were terrorists--they used guerrilla tactics that were considered outside the norm of civilized warfare.

What about the ANC in South Africa? Without its terrorism, apartheid may not have ended as quickly as it did.

I'm no defender of terrorism, but the sad truth is that it does serve a purpose for particular groups at particular times in history.

Mariner.
 
Mariner said:
One man's terrorist is another man's "Freedom Fighter."

Did you read the post where I related some of the history I've been learning about the formation of the state of Israel? The Arabs were driven off their land in large part by Israeli terrorism, led by Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan. Entire villages were razed. In one village, 250 innocent civilians, including children and elderly people, were butchered and mutilated. The Israeli terrorists also bombed British facilities, killing 91 people in one incident. All of this predated a single act of Palestinian terrorism in Israel.

The Muslim Brotherhood were equal foes, many of today's terrorists organizations are off-shoots from that group. Google Egypt's Hassan al-Banna.
 
theim said:
I got into an arument on another board a bit ago. On this board was an European, a Brit I think. He said America has lost all it's allies and they what we got in return was Togo, Latvia, and Poland. I replied that Togo, Latvia and Poland do about as much for us militarily as Germany, France, and Russia; they agree with us far more often; and when they don't agree with us they don't actively work against us. So in effect yes, I would rather have them as allies.

The way things are going, in 40 years or so from now, France, Germany will be dominated by other European countries like Poland, Latvia etc. etc. It may occur sooner.

Right now the French and Germans only dominate because of their history, and reputation.

If I was picking a team (and my success rate in Sunday softball games is around 80% :) ) I would take Poland over France or Germany anyday. And countries like Latvia, though small, could become economic powerhouses if they become strong allies with the US.
 
Mariner said:
reason to be teed off at us right now. El Masri, the apparently innocent German citizen who was "rendered" to Egypt by the U.S., where he was treated brutally, has been big news over there. Just another example of how Bush's outrageous views on torture, secret prisons, rendition, and deprivation of prisoners' human and legal rights lowers our standing in the rest of the world--the exact opposite of what we're supposedly trying to accomplish. "How to lose friends and create enemies" would be a good title for Bush's overall international policy. Anyone notice how even as the war in Iraq is supposedly being won, the "coalition of the willing" has been shrinking?

Mariner.

It was planned that the coalition would reduce in size over time.

Hey, you got a hang nail? Oh, blame it on Bush, you are the KING!
 
Mariner said:
One man's terrorist is another man's "Freedom Fighter."

Did you read the post where I related some of the history I've been learning about the formation of the state of Israel? The Arabs were driven off their land in large part by Israeli terrorism, led by Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan. Entire villages were razed. In one village, 250 innocent civilians, including children and elderly people, were butchered and mutilated. The Israeli terrorists also bombed British facilities, killing 91 people in one incident. All of this predated a single act of Palestinian terrorism in Israel.

Or, remember Ronald Reagan's Freedom Fighters in Nicaragua?

From the British point of view, the American Revolutionaries were terrorists--they used guerrilla tactics that were considered outside the norm of civilized warfare.

What about the ANC in South Africa? Without its terrorism, apartheid may not have ended as quickly as it did.

I'm no defender of terrorism, but the sad truth is that it does serve a purpose for particular groups at particular times in history.

Mariner.

Who cares what you post? Its all propaganda and LIES.

Go read a definition of propaganda
then read one of your posts
then read the def. of prop
then one of your posts
then the def of prop
then your post
then prop
then ur post
prop
ur post
prop
ur post
prop
ur post
ALL LIES
 
http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=24029
Ex-hostage's Iraq return angers her rescue team
From Roger Boyes in Berlin

THE German Government angrily rebuked a former hostage yesterday who is determined to return to Iraq despite being held captive for three weeks by a Sunni gang.

Susanne Osthoff, a 43-year-old archaeologist, announced this week on al-Jazeera television that she would go back to her work in northern Iraq, trying to set up a German cultural centre in Arbil.

Angela Merkel’s new Government, which regards the freeing of Frau Osthoff this month as its first foreign policy triumph, is furious. It made huge efforts to secure her release and is widely believed to have paid a ransom.

It has now blocked all funding for her project and has told her that she should leave the region immediately. She is believed currently to be in Jordan, with her 12-year-old daughter, preparing to return.

“I would have little sympathy if Frau Osthoff puts herself again in danger considering the intensive efforts made by many people to secure her release,” said Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German Foreign Minister, who headed a team that negotiated her release.

Other foreign policy experts were less diplomatic. “A self-willed woman!” exploded Hans-Ulrich Klose, the deputy leader of the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee. “Incomprehensible,” agreed Ruprecht Polenz, the committee chairman. “In the event of a second kidnapping one would have to discuss who should foot the bill.”

German newspapers have been full of letters complaining about how much she has cost the taxpayer. Peter Scholl-Latour, the country’s leading Middle East expert, complained: “She is absolutely irresponsible — she is just kicking the Government on the shins.”

Frau Osthoff, however, seems likely to go ahead with her plans. Despite the national relief at her release, she refused to return to Germany for Christmas. Although she was released on December 18, she has yet to telephone her mother.

Frau Osthoff converted to Islam, speaks Arabic and was married to a nomadic tribesman from the region near the Iraqi-Syrian border; she plainly considers Iraq to be her home.

The circumstances of her abduction are only now beginning to leak out. She was due to travel north from Baghdad for a meeting about her projects. Her driver, however, took her only to a house in the capital. She was pulled into an apartment by three men.

The driver appears to have been working with the kidnappers and has since disappeared. British Special Forces in Iraq offered their assistance to Germany — which has no troops on the ground — but the Germans declined.

Eventually the kidnappers made contact. One of the middle men, according to German media reports, may have actually been one of the hostage takers. He has dropped out of sight.

Frau Osthoff was unharmed and, according to security sources quoted in Der Spiegel, the sharp-tongued archaeologist made full use of her Arabic fluency to reprimand the kidnappers. It appears they were relieved to see her go.

# Poland will keep its troops in Iraq until the end of 2006, it announced yesterday, reversing the previous Government’s decision. It will cut their number by 600, however.
 
To mariner, right and wrong and courses of action are based upon nothing more than getting the most people to like you. How juvenile. Hey mariner, if everyone was eating sh*t sandwiches, would you order a double decker?
 
Mariner said:
One man's terrorist is another man's "Freedom Fighter."

Did you read the post where I related some of the history I've been learning about the formation of the state of Israel? The Arabs were driven off their land in large part by Israeli terrorism, led by Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan. Entire villages were razed. In one village, 250 innocent civilians, including children and elderly people, were butchered and mutilated. The Israeli terrorists also bombed British facilities, killing 91 people in one incident. All of this predated a single act of Palestinian terrorism in Israel.

Or, remember Ronald Reagan's Freedom Fighters in Nicaragua?

From the British point of view, the American Revolutionaries were terrorists--they used guerrilla tactics that were considered outside the norm of civilized warfare.

What about the ANC in South Africa? Without its terrorism, apartheid may not have ended as quickly as it did.

I'm no defender of terrorism, but the sad truth is that it does serve a purpose for particular groups at particular times in history.

Mariner.

Typical liberal identity crisis. I'm on OUR side. Our enemies are extremist, militant, xenophobic, genocidal Islamists deserving of NO quarter.

Our other enemy, the left, has no balls so they aren't a problem except they won't shut up.
 
Take a Few Moments to Recall Freed Terrorist's Crime
By Jonathan Gurwitz, San Antonio Express-News
12/28/2005

Stethem, a Navy diver, was returning from an assignment in the Middle East when terrorists hijacked his flight. The members of Hezbollah singled out Stethem because he was an American serviceman. They bound his arms with an electrical cord and beat him mercilessly.

After hours of this savage treatment, they shot Stethem in the head and dumped his mutilated body on the tarmac at the Beirut airport. Stethem was 23. The Navy awarded him the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. He is buried at Arlington National Cemetery.

In 1987, German authorities caught one of the hijackers of Stethem's flight. They arrested Mohammed Ali Hamadi at the Frankfurt airport carrying liquid explosives in his luggage. Germany denied a U.S. request to extradite Hamadi for prosecution. In 1989, a Frankfurt court gave Hamadi a life sentence for Stethem's murder. In Germany, however, a life sentence means prison time of between 20 and 25 years with the possibility of parole after 15 years.

Last week, Hamadi walked out of prison a free man. The German government rebuffed continued American requests for extradition and a personal plea from Attorney General Alberto Gonzales not to release him early. He boarded a flight to the Beirut airport where, after a brief detention, he disappeared.

Robert Stethem was not the first American victim of Islamic terrorism. But his murder 20 years ago was surely a sign of things to come. And the German government's decision to set his killer free is a guarantee that—in Europe at least—past is prologue.

What makes Hamadi's freedom all the more galling is that only days earlier, the execution of Stanley "Tookie" Williams had Europeans lecturing the United States about the supposed superiority of their sense of justice. The cold-blooded killer of four people, Williams was feted in Europe—as well as in Hollywood and academia—as a Nobel Peace Prize candidate and a children's book author.

It's a curious morality that deplores the death of an American murderer and sanctions the freedom of the murderer of an American. Whatever may be said of Williams' execution, he—unlike Hamadi—will never kill again.

"What I can assure anybody who's listening, including Mr. Hamadi," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said last week, "is that we will track him down. We will find him. And we will bring him to justice in the United States for what he's done." For 16 years after the murder of Stethem, that would properly have been considered an idle threat. Today it is not.

I have never forgotten Stethem or the pictures of his boyish face that I saw that summer in 1985, and the nation should never forget what the terrorists did to him or to the other largely nameless American victims of terror. Nor should we ever forget the weakness and appeasement that sets terrorists free to kill again.

http://www.mysanantonio.com
 
Kathianne said:


Oh it gets more interesting:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,392690,00.html


Former Iraq Hostage Makes Bizzare TV Appearance

Susanne Osthoff, the recently released German hostage in Iraq, raises eyebrows by giving an incoherent television interview in a concealing headdress. Bob Geldof defends his decision to become a consultant for Britain's Conservative Party. And a former Nazi training camp will soon open to tourists.

Susanne Osthoff, who was released from Iraqi kidnappers last week, baffles Germany by going on television swathed in black.
If former hostage Susanne Osthoff had been better advised, she probably would have opted against appearing on German television entirely covered in a black headscarf. The hijab, which left only a pair of slits for her eyes, made the freed hostage look like a disturbing cross between a Chechen Black Widow suicide bomber and a ninja.

On Wednesday night, 10 days after her release from captivity, a televised interview with Osthoff, who had been held in Iraq for three weeks, was broadcast on the German public television channel ZDF. In the interview's introduction, the presenter explained that Osthoff's choice of dress was suposedly intended to preserve her identity --a bizarre thought considering that Osthoff's face has been all over the front-pages since November and most people in Germany must be quite aware of what she looks like. Besides, she didn't wear a headdress in her interview with Arab broacaster Al-Jazeera earlier this week.

The second shock for viewers was the rambling, incoherent nature of Osthoff's answers. Even the heavily edited version (ZDF spokesman: "We wanted to protect Osthoff from herself.") of the original 15-minute interview was barely comprehensible. Questions were left unanswered and at times Osthoff rambled off into non-sequiturs about how badly she had been treated by her landlord back in Germany. When asked how the kidnapping had been carried out, she was evasive, simply responding: "I think these details are not interesting. That doesn't interest anyone. Generally kidnappings are carried out quite violently. People watch a lot of television and realize perhaps that you don't let yourself get abducted voluntarily."

Perhaps Osthoff was still shaky from what was presumably a traumatic experience? People close to Osthoff told the media her appearance was "strange and unusual," adding that the stress of the kidnapping seems to have made a nervous wreck out of the once self-assured, articulate woman they knew before the incident. Regardless, the appearance has done little to help her public image in Germany.

Media scrutiny of Osthoff on Thursday was intense, with the mass-circulation Bild leading with "Susanne Osthoff: Crazed TV Appearance," complete with a half-page picture of the headscarf-adorning former hostage. The entire second page is taken up with what the paper calls "The Osthoff Mystery," which links her to Saddam Hussein's regime and asks where she got the money to send her daughter to an exclusive boarding school. "The puzzle of Susanne Osthoff will preoccupy us for a long time to come," the paper concludes, ominously.
 
There is something really fishy about this whole story and I am betting she will not stand up to close scrutiny.
 
CSM said:
There is something really fishy about this whole story and I am betting she will not stand up to close scrutiny.

Seems like she is getting ready to call, 'Stockholm syndrome'...

The German people are very angry with her. The government's obvious payment of ransom bought this, along with more American animosity.
 
Mariner said:
Did you read the post where I related some of the history I've been learning about the formation of the state of Israel? The Arabs were driven off their land in large part by Israeli terrorism, led by Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan. Entire villages were razed. In one village, 250 innocent civilians, including children and elderly people, were butchered and mutilated. The Israeli terrorists also bombed British facilities, killing 91 people in one incident. All of this predated a single act of Palestinian terrorism in Israel.

Yes, but in the States we have a Jewish media, so you'll never hear Israelis referred to as 'terrorists,' only their Arab enemies. You can pretty much predict how a given group will be referred to in the American press based on whether they're friend or foe to Jews.

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Islamic terrorists, freedom fighters or whatever you want to call them.

I wish they'd ALL pack it up and ship it out. Put Bill Kristol of the Weekly Standard in the same foul desert with Osama bin Laden and may the best Semite win.
 

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