German Healthcare Insurance System - Good/bad

When people talk about the healthcare Insurance system, both sides rarely mention the German system. To the right it sounds too much like Obamacare, to the left it doesn't sound enough like free Single Payor.

What American Healthcare Can Learn From Germany - The Atlantic

Here is how it works:
(1) All children and the elderly (over 65 I believe) are paid for by the government. Think of medicare for minors and seniors.
(2) All Germans must get health insurance. They can choose between 160 non-profit (yet non-goverment) health insurance provides. Again these we would like non-profit private insurance provides. Think of it like credit unions. They have a bottomline, decently compensated employees, but they don't make a profits.
(3) Co-pays are low, and premiums are set at a percent of one's income. The person's employer pays half and the person pays half.
(4) The government covers the premiums while one is unemployed. I know the right attitude. Lazy people won't work in order to get insurance. For get food, rent and other necessities, they won't seek a job because they want insurance. Illogical.
(5) Each person has the option of opting out and getting private insurance if they choose, but their employer does not have to pick up 1/2 the tab.
(6) There are no network limitations.No deductibles.
(7) Good wait times

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This is not very correct. There is not a single non-profit insurance company but the companies are bound by conditions set by the government. For example there is a unitary insurance contribution. However, if someone has no health insurance for some reason, treatment will not be denied.

There are two kinds of health insurance companies: Public and private ones.
The private insurance is preferred by the medical practices, they earn more and the privately insured must directly pay out of pocket and gets his money back later from the insurance company. This is why the private insurance requires an high income, while the public insurance companies cannot reject people.


German hospitals practice the most surgical operations in Europe. Don't know about the rest of the world. To make money for the hospitals.
Most hospitals in Germany are underfunded and overworked. Sometimes, doctors work 30 hours at a stretch and they often have official 24 hours shifts.
Krefeld rzte gegen 24-Stunden-Schicht

How is that any different than in the US?


I'm not talking about the U.S.

True, but the whole point of this thread is to state the US should try to move more towards a German style system. The German hospitals have funding issues, just as US hospitals have.
 
This is not very correct. There is not a single non-profit insurance company but the companies are bound by conditions set by the government. For example there is a unitary insurance contribution. However, if someone has no health insurance for some reason, treatment will not be denied.

There are two kinds of health insurance companies: Public and private ones.
The private insurance is preferred by the medical practices, they earn more and the privately insured must directly pay out of pocket and gets his money back later from the insurance company. This is why the private insurance requires an high income, while the public insurance companies cannot reject people.


German hospitals practice the most surgical operations in Europe. Don't know about the rest of the world. To make money for the hospitals.
Most hospitals in Germany are underfunded and overworked. Sometimes, doctors work 30 hours at a stretch and they often have official 24 hours shifts.
Krefeld rzte gegen 24-Stunden-Schicht

How is that any different than in the US?


I'm not talking about the U.S.

True, but the whole point of this thread is to state the US should try to move more towards a German style system. The German hospitals have funding issues, just as US hospitals have.


The Americans go over to a single payer system, that has funding problems?

The German system is good (still). But nothing to what it used to be. Paying more, and getting less.
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


It's been going since Bismarck. A lot of catching up to do. :beer:
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)

This is very much a red herring argument, because it has very little to do with the health INSURANCE system. I agree we wouldn't want to copy a pamphlet like this, but then again we have the best HEALTHCARE in the world, so they should copy us!
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?

I put my google-fu to work and came up with this. I put the opening paragraph through Google Translate and it seems to be on the mark. Why not read it and give us your informed assessment.
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?


I find a document that was probably what those idiots meant, although they translated it very badly, very, very badly.

Here is the document:

http://www.bzga.de/pdf.php?id=75df323290c7c111605e78ff8aaf71bb

The actual Title is:

"Liebevoll begleiten...Körperwahrnehmung und körperliche Neugier kleiner Kinder"
(Accompanying in a loving way... bodily awareneness and the bodily curiousity of small children"

The pamphlet is aimed at advice about kinds from 0 to 6 years old.

And the part those idiots at that stupid website are talking about is on page 28, with the subtitle:

"Kinder brauchen Freunde zum Vergleichen, zum Verlieben oder Doktorspielen"
Children need friends for comparison, to love or to play doctor.

I just read it three times. There is nothing in there was was quoted in that idiot website and absolute in no way was even inferred that parent's should be touching their childrens' genitals.
That is just batshit crazy.

It talks about a child's natural curiousity about his or her sexuality and how parents should not get in the way, advice that we also hear in the USA.

You see, this is how crazy people work: they incorrectly translate a document and then try to make it something diabolic. It is not.
 
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Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?


I find a document that was probably what those idiots meant, although they translated it very badly, very, very badly.

I think you jumped the gun and owe the idiots an apology. The link I provided has this translated text:

The Federal Ministry for Family Affairs has now responded : The brochure was deleted from the repertoire of his educational work , including at the BZgA Internet page it is gone.
Machine translation isn't all that great so we're going to have to rely on you German speakers to read the article and synopsize for us. From what I can tell there was controversy in Germany which looks like what the Lifesite article was writing about, but again, I'm relying on a hatchett job from machine translation.
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?

I put my google-fu to work and came up with this. I put the opening paragraph through Google Translate and it seems to be on the mark. Why not read it and give us your informed assessment.

I already know that article. And again, there is absolutely nothing in that or any other broschure that encourages parents to touch their children in a sexual way. That is simply a huge lie.
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?


I find a document that was probably what those idiots meant, although they translated it very badly, very, very badly.

I think you jumped the gun and owe the idiots an apology. The link I provided has this translated text:

The Federal Ministry for Family Affairs has now responded : The brochure was deleted from the repertoire of his educational work , including at the BZgA Internet page it is gone.
Machine translation isn't all that great so we're going to have to rely on you German speakers to read the article and synopsize for us. From what I can tell there was controversy in Germany which looks like what the Lifesite article was writing about, but again, I'm relying on a hatchett job from machine translation.


No.

The broschure is still there, within another one.

I already linked to it above.

Pay attention, if you are even capable of such.
 
No.

The broschure is still there, within another one.

I already linked to it above.

Pay attention, if you are even capable of such.

Who to believe, you or the magazine? I go with the magazine:

The Federal Ministry for Family Affairs has now responded : The brochure was deleted from the repertoire of his educational work , including at the BZgA Internet page it is gone.
You're probably too stupid to realize that you're reading a revised edition. The article mentions the controversy.

I'll wait for another German-literate member to chime in on the article.
 
Is the German healthcare system we should emulate the same German healthcare system that advocated pedophilia? :)

"BERLIN, July 30, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Booklets from a subsidiary of the German government’s Ministry for Family Affairs encourage parents to sexually massage their children as young as 1 to 3 years of age. Two 40-page booklets entitled "Love, Body and Playing Doctor" by the German Federal Health Education Center (Bundeszentrale für gesundheitliche Aufklärung - BZgA) are aimed at parents - the first addressing children from 1-3 and the other children from 4-6 years of age.

"Fathers do not devote enough attention to the clitoris and vagina of their daughters. Their caresses too seldom pertain to these regions, while this is the only way the girls can develop a sense of pride in their sex," reads the booklet regarding 1-3 year olds. The authors rationalize, "The child touches all parts of their father’s body, sometimes arousing him. The father should do the same.""
German Government Publication Promotes Incestuous Pedophilia as Healthy Sex Ed News LifeSite

Maybe that's why we don't use the German system? :)


So, you quote a whacky site from SEVEN years ago about a german broschure that is nowhere to be found?

I just combed the entire BZgA site: there is no such document.

Perhaps that is why this never ended up being a story at all.

Care to try again?


I find a document that was probably what those idiots meant, although they translated it very badly, very, very badly.

I think you jumped the gun and owe the idiots an apology. The link I provided has this translated text:

The Federal Ministry for Family Affairs has now responded : The brochure was deleted from the repertoire of his educational work , including at the BZgA Internet page it is gone.
Machine translation isn't all that great so we're going to have to rely on you German speakers to read the article and synopsize for us. From what I can tell there was controversy in Germany which looks like what the Lifesite article was writing about, but again, I'm relying on a hatchett job from machine translation.


The woman who wrote the article was sued in court by two fundie Christians who were offended. They were offended SIX years after it came out.

The broschure inhalt does indeed describe how most children discover sexuality, but not even one single sentence encourages parents to touch their children in any way at all.

The pamphlet encourages parents to not get in the way of the sexual development of their children.

The most concrete accusation that those two fundies could bring against the article was:

""Einige Formulierungen missverständlich und zweideutig""

A number of formulations led to misunderstandings and were double-entendres.

Of course, double-entendre is a matter of perspective.

Here a quote:

"Die Broschüren informieren darüber, wie Eltern ihre Kinder beim Entdecken des eigenen Körpers und bei der Erfahrung der Sexualität begleiten können", stand seinerzeit in einer Pressemitteilung zu den Aufklärungsheften. Eine Evaluierung hatte den Ratgeber für gut befunden: Das Institut für Marktforschung befragte im Auftrag der BZgA kurz nach der Herausgabe 60 Mütter, 30 Väter und 15 Erzieherinnen. Das Ergebnis der Elterninterviews sei "überaus positiv, sowohl hinsichtlich der Bewertung des Inhalts auch der Gestaltung. (...) Eine spontane Kritik am Inhalt wurde nicht geäußert." 89 Prozent der Eltern hätten angegeben, für die Grenzen und die Intimsphäre der Kinder sensibilisiert worden zu sein. Auch die Erzieherinnen hätten - mit einer Ausnahme - spontan positiv geurteilt.

"The broschures inform people who parents can "accompany" (guide) their children during the phase in whiche they are discovering sexuality within their bodies" - this was the press release to these broschures.

The Advisory board that published the broschures found them to be good. The pollster "Institut für Marktforschung" was assigned the task to ask 60 mothers, 30 fathers and 15 pre-school personnel about the broschures. The results of the interviews with the parents was "overwhelmingly positive, both in terms of the actual content and how it was presented.... there was no spontaneous negative critique on the content. 89% of the respondents responded that they were now more sensibilized to the needs of and the BOUNDARIES of the intimate-sphere of their children. 13 of 14 pre-school personnel gave the broschure a positive mark.



The sentence that sent those fundie fruitcakes through the roof was:

"Scheide und vor allem Klitoris erfahren kaum Beachtung durch zärtliche Berührung (weder durch Vater noch Mutter) und erschweren es damit für das Mädchen, Stolz auf seine Geschlechtlichkeit zu entwickeln."

Attention is hardly paid to the Vagina and above all else, the clitoris through gentle touching (neither from the father or the mother) which makes it hard for a girl to be proud of the development of her sexual anatomy.

-------------------

What is lacking, of course, is the context. In the paragraph right before, the author reminded that parents should stay away from the sexual development of their children, for this reason, the parenthetic referral to (fathers and mothers).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, Ursula van der Leyen (CDU) apparently strikes the broschure from the catalogue and then it reappears as part of another. So, apparently, it wasn't as controversial as it seemed. I remember reading about this because the controversy was stirred up about 4 months after my child was born and my then wife and I, we were reading all sorts of material on raising kids.

This is much ado about nothing.
 
So, in typical RWNJ fashion, we have gone, on this thread, from the basic facts about the very robust and healthy TGerman health care system to one pamphlet out of thousands and thousands that made some fundie mad.

Poor Righties, they cannot really concentrate on anything for very long, now can they...
 
So, in typical RWNJ fashion, we have gone, on this thread, from the basic facts about the very robust and healthy TGerman health care system to one pamphlet out of thousands and thousands that made some fundie mad.

Poor Righties, they cannot really concentrate on anything for very long, now can they...

Hey, Delta4Embassy is one of your dingbats. Don't try to pawn him off on conservatives.
 
why are we looking to Germany now

obamacares was the fix all

promised -better care - coverage for all- cheaper premiums
 

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