George Bush's Eve Of Destruction

[acludem]

Welcome, emmanuel! I enjoyed this mix, interesting play on both the President's words and the old song.

And here's another source for the information on Bin Laden
http://www.worldhistory.com/binladen.htm

acludem

 

[Emmanuel_Z]

Originally posted by insein
Ok a russian source was the only source you found. It wasnt even a news source. It was the equivalent to a fan site that finds information to serve their purposes such as moveon.org. I'd accept it better (albeit only slightly better due to their bias) if it came from CNN or CBS etc rather than an obscure overseas website.

Since when is a Russian newspaper no news source? Why do you think only American-based news agencies are reliable? Would you also consider the BBC an obscure overseas source? That's where I heard it first.

BBC programme about Osama

EDIT: Thanks Acludem!

 

[acludem]

you are very welcome!

acludem

 

[insein]

that was a great story about the tragically shy life of Osama bin Laden. But where did it mention the fact that Osama had any part in the first gulf War. According to this story all it says:

In 1991 Osama left Saudi Arabia for Sudan. Scott Macleod, the first American journalist to interview him, met him then and provides insight into a vain, petty man whose pride was hurt.

[sarcasm]Poor Osama. Hes so misunderstood. I guess we should just leave him and his terrorists alone since their feelings have been hurt. Not even by us directly. Nevermind all thos bombings and the Americans he killed. I mean we obviously had no idea what a troubled childhood he led. What with him actually going to school and being able to learn, something many Middle Easterners and even Americans dont have an opportunity to have.[/sarcasm]

So lets review. No proof of him having any take in the first Gulf War and yet an account of the troubled upbrining of Osama. Not that any of his prior help for any of the US allies would cancel out what his done since then. Thats like saying, "Well this guy just killed my mom, but i mean he's ok because he helped out my family one time on the side of the road."

Get over your arrogance to think that by being nice to these animals will get rid of their kind. If someone killed your mom or your dad, or any member of your family would you say "Oh his misunderstood. We need to help him out and make sure his life is ok in the hope that he doesnt go an kill anymore people." No!! You go and kill him and then he damn sure wont be killing anymore people.

Thats what we are doing with terrorists. we arent negotiating with them because they arent any rational beings to be negotiated with. We are exterminating them where they live. Deal with it.

 

[Emmanuel_Z]

Insein,

I felt I still owe you a reaction to your remarks on the first page.

Originally posted by insein
The war is going very well.

The fact that you're still calling it a war while Bush declared the war over almost a year ago suggests that it's not going very well. Admittedly, the old regime was dispersed of quickly, but that was the easy part. Rebuilding such a differentiated and repressed country is much more difficult and has clearly been underestimated.

And Appeasment is never the answer. Nevil Chamberlain comes to mind.

Your criticism of appeasement implies that you think war is the only answer. Since we're comparing, try the First World War for analogies. After Archduke Ferdinand of Austria was murdered, nobody was ready to appease and the whole world was at war within a week.

You can train a lion and you can make him tame, but he is still a lion. He can bite your head off at any time. Terrorism can not be negotiated with. It is not even a country. Its a group of individuals with an agenda. They just happen to use bombs to get their points across. Their point you ask? To kill as many people as possible. No peace in our time can be had when animals like these breath the same air as we.

You can't negotiate with terrorists. Agreed. But they are only a small group, that gets a lot of support in the Arabic world. And these supporters are people - not lions or animals - that you can negotiate with. These people have their criticism on American foreign policy. Whether this criticism is justified or not, it needs to be dealt with. If you can take away their support for groups like Al Qaida, you can diminish Al Qaida's power. So we should look at the reasons Arabic nations hate the US so much, and find a long-term solutions for the Palestinian problem.

EDIT: I understand you hoped to find the information on the BBC web site; I'm sorry, you should have seen the programme. Thankfully, acludem provided us with an American link: http://www.worldhistory.com/binladen.htm

 

[OCA]

This stuff continually amazes me, the stuff about understanding the reasons behind their hate and taking away their support will diminish terrorism, WHAT RUBBISH! As someone who comes from that general part of the world I can tell you learnedly and factually that the only thing these guys understand is violence, death and power. They are like a stud colt that if you don't show it who's boss from early on it will try and take advantage of you at every opportunity and can sense nervousness which is the case right now what with all the complete B.S. the terrorists see on CNN, BBC, CBS etc. etc. they think we are pussies.

Anybody who still endorses negotiation over armed force is demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge of the people who inhabit that part of the world.

 

[Emmanuel_Z]

Hi OCA.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody. I'm for a healthy debate... after all, aren't we all on here because this stuff is on all our minds?

This stuff continually amazes me, the stuff about understanding the reasons behind their hate and taking away their support will diminish terrorism, WHAT RUBBISH!

Please read all my posts in this thread carefully. 'Their hate' and 'their support' are phrases that I use with distinctive subjects. I don´t just throw them around. Please understand that I make the distinction between terrorists and their support base.

As someone who comes from that general part of the world

From where, if I may ask? Just out of curiosity.

With all the complete B.S. the terrorists see on CNN, BBC, CBS etc. etc. they think we are pussies.

What would you care? After all, if you don't care for their reasons, why would you care for what they think?

Anybody who still endorses negotiation over armed force is demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge of the people who inhabit that part of the world.

What faith in people.

 

[OCA]

Greece

You just don't get it. You know what they did during Clinton when he would send a negotiator over, a woman negotiator Madeline Albright? To her face they say yes, yes, yes but she leaves and they laugh their ass off and do what they want to do. You don't understand this area has not been infected with the disease known as liberalism and political correctness. Its eye for an eye and power and strength makes the rules. Until America understands this and shows them strength they will continue to screw with us. Negotiation and diplomacy are the road to ruin.

 

[Emmanuel_Z]

I know what you're trying to say, but isn't it a bit shallow? It almost sounds as if you really think a whole continent approves of terrorist acts. In doing so, you might be offending a lot of innocent people. Who, in turn, will dislike Americans a slight bit more... And up goes the spiral.

You know what they did during Clinton
Define 'they'
To her face they say yes, yes, yes but she leaves and they laugh their ass off and do what they want to do.
Define 'they'
Until America understands this and shows them strength they will continue to screw with us. Negotiation and diplomacy are the road to ruin.
Define 'they'

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Originally posted by Emmanuel_Z
I know what you're trying to say, but isn't it a bit shallow? It almost sounds as if you really think a whole continent approves of terrorist acts. In doing so, you might be offending a lot of innocent people. Who, in turn, will dislike Americans a slight bit more... And up goes the spiral.

You know what they did during Clinton
Define 'they'
To her face they say yes, yes, yes but she leaves and they laugh their ass off and do what they want to do.
Define 'they'
Until America understands this and shows them strength they will continue to screw with us. Negotiation and diplomacy are the road to ruin.
Define 'they'

They = Taliban and other Islamic militant organizations.

 

[st8_o_mind]

Originally posted by Emmanuel_Z
If you don't try to look at it from the other side, you'll never make a balanced judgement.

So here, for your benefit, is the other side.

Saddam Hussein's regime and Al Qaida were enemies. Due to this (and of course the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict), fundamentalism grew more widespread, and soon the attacks against the Americans started. The troops had to go, was the message. They didn't.


Peace!

According to a tape bin Ladin made shortly after the 9/11 attacks (that he, not Saddam was responsible for) he gave three reasons. You listed two. The third was the suffering of the Iraqi people under the sanctions for which he blamed the US.

Otherwise, great post.

 

[Emmanuel_Z]

Thanks st8. I try...

Jihadthis: Taliban and other Islamic militant organizations says it all, doesn't it? Just throw the whole lot together in one big 'they'? If the administration also holds such a simplistic world view it certainly shouldn't be trying to run the world.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Emmanuel_Z
Jihadthis: Taliban and other Islamic militant organizations says it all, doesn't it? Just throw the whole lot together in one big 'they'? If the administration also holds such a simplistic world view it certainly shouldn't be trying to run the world.

I can simplify it even further and just call them terrorists.

 

[Emmanuel_Z]

An Islamic militant organization is a terrorist organization by default? This debate is slipping over...

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by Emmanuel_Z
An Islamic militant organization is a terrorist organization by default? This debate is slipping over...

Your damn right it is. There is no difference between Yassir Arafat and OBL. You talk about lumping people together, in Fallujah I saw civilians in the streets celebrating, kinda makes them one doesn't it? If they aren't the same its time they declare their innocence because hell is coming in the form of firepower and its not discerning.

My take is you are another pacifist like all the others, news for ya, your time has passed, now its time to do some killing and earn their respect.

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by Emmanuel_Z
I know what you're trying to say, but isn't it a bit shallow? It almost sounds as if you really think a whole continent approves of terrorist acts. In doing so, you might be offending a lot of innocent people. Who, in turn, will dislike Americans a slight bit more... And up goes the spiral.

You know what they did during Clinton
Define 'they'
To her face they say yes, yes, yes but she leaves and they laugh their ass off and do what they want to do.
Define 'they'
Until America understands this and shows them strength they will continue to screw with us. Negotiation and diplomacy are the road to ruin.
Define 'they'

Shallow? How does understanding the enemy obviously better than you make me shallow?

"They" are a conglomerate of persons and organizations well known to everyone here from that area. You know exactly who i'm talking about.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Emmanuel_Z
An Islamic militant organization is a terrorist organization by default? This debate is slipping over...

How would you classify them? Are they like the local Red Cross? Is their purpose to have weekly meetings to share applie pie and coffee?

They are organizations put together to instill fear in others and kill to further their agendas.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Why is it so hard to understand some simple truths?

In the last 20+ years, there has been an obvious trend. Look at most major terrorist events. The bulk of them have been commited by Islamic militant organizations:

US Embassey "invasion" and subsequent hostage ordeal in Iran
Bombing of Marine barracks in Lebanon
Death of Leon Klinghoffer on Achille Lauro
Bombing of flight 103 over Lockerbie
The ongoing warfare in Chechnya
The ongoing warfare in Kashmir
Bombing of Khobar Towers
Bombing of US Embassey in Africa
Bombing of WTC in 93
Bombing of USS Cole
9/11
Bombing of nightclub in Bali
3/11
Arafat/PLO/Hamas/Hezbollah and the ongoing "intafada" in Israel

None of these events were perpertrated by radical Pagans, Hindus or Christians. The facts are facts. The Koran as interpreted by the radicals justifies these actions. Claims are made that these are a fringe element of a so called peaceful religion. Yet I never see or hear a so called moderate Muslim stand up and say that the above events are the horrible tragedies that they are and tries to do something about it from within the frame work of his cultural institutions. Instead, I hear a lot of blame about how the non muslims caused these problems. That the "oppression" of the people, the "Israel" situation, the Palestinian "problem" etc, is our fault. For what ever reason, it seems that a lot of the poulation in the Mid East can not/will not take responsibility for their own misery. Take the current situation in Iraq. Agree with it or not, the US went in and liberated the country over a year ago. Yet the Iraqis expect us to secure their country for them, and a lot of them don't seem too interested in doing it themselves. Why should they? Anything that gets screwed up they can blame on the Americans. People from all over the world are in Iraq right now trying to help them better their lot in life, yet they let the terrorists, thieves and foreign jihadis stir up all the BS you've been watching on tv the last week. If there is only a few thousand "insurgents" in Fallujah, why hasn't the other 280,000 + residents done something about these scumbags that are causing all the problems? They must not disagree with their message or their methods. Which comes back to my original point:

Ask some of these moderate pro US Muslims why they don't do something about the allegedlly "small" fringe element in their midst. I won't hold my breath.....

 

[acludem]

Being that I'm taking a class right now called "Dynamics of Terrorism" and just took my midterm tonight I can tell you a couple of things. First, it is damn near impossible to actually define terrorism. There is no agreement amongst experts on the issue on what the definition actually is. We assume, because our dumbed-down media tell us, that every act of violence in the middle east must be "terrorism". I can also tell you that the start of terrorism in the middle east can be traced to three sources. The first is a broken promise from Britain during World War I that created the modern map of the middle east instead of the pan-arabic nation the leaders in the area were promised. The next cause is of course the fight over Israel. There are strong intra-arab rivalries in the region, as well as tension between different sects of Islam.

acludem

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by acludem
Being that I'm taking a class right now called "Dynamics of Terrorism" and just took my midterm tonight I can tell you a couple of things. First, it is damn near impossible to actually define terrorism.

Half of your problem is you are being taught by DOMESTIC terrorists what the definition of "terrorism" is to apply to FOREIGN terrorism.

There is no agreement amongst experts on the issue on what the definition actually is.

Then they aren't experts are they?

We assume, because our dumbed-down media tell us, that every act of violence in the middle east must be "terrorism". I can also tell you that the start of terrorism in the middle east can be traced to three sources. The first is a broken promise from Britain during World War I that created the modern map of the middle east instead of the pan-arabic nation the leaders in the area were promised. The next cause is of course the fight over Israel. There are strong intra-arab rivalries in the region, as well as tension between different sects of Islam.

acludem

Ok. Now that you will prove you LIKE to sound like an idiot, in at least 2 other threads I have discussed this with you. You are totally clueless as to any knowledge of these guys WHATSOEVER because you are cluless as to what is printed in the koran.

You justify this ignorance by pointing to teachers who sabotage the US Constitution by subverting minds like yours into not knowing how to even read the dang thing if they can even read at all due to lacking proper public education.

As I have said repeatedly, until you read the koran, don't lecture people who know something on the topic. You are totally ignorant on the subject. Open your ears and eyes and learn, and turn off your tv.