Genesis and Reality can not coexist

[Powerman]

I understand that some people are fundamentalists and some aren't but you've got to be crazy to think that the book of Genesis is factual. I mean come on...the Catholics don't even believe in it anymore and they invented Christianity.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I understand that some people are fundamentalists and some aren't but you've got to be crazy to think that the book of Genesis is factual. I mean come on...the Catholics don't even believe in it anymore and they invented Christianity.

Please, make a worthwhile post with some substance to it, something that can be debated over...like, say, examples supporting your thesis. This is a poorly executed flame; you look desperate for a fight, not intelligent discussion.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why? Because you say so? Because you don't see it as possible?

 

[Powerman]

Please, make a worthwhile post with some substance to it, something that can be debated over...like, say, examples supporting your thesis. This is a poorly executed flame; you look desperate for a fight, not intelligent discussion.

OK simple examples of flaws in the book of Genesis.

1. God allegedly created light before he created the light producing objects. Seems silly to me.
2. God also created plantlife before creating the light producing objects. How would the process of photosynthesis take place without the sun?
3. The story of Noah is easily one of the most absurd fallacious and/or exagerrated stories ever.


It's just not a factual book. I'd love to have an 'intelligent' discussion on the matter but anyone who disagrees with me on this one probably isn't the brightest person in the world.

 

[MissileMan]

Please, make a worthwhile post with some substance to it, something that can be debated over...like, say, examples supporting your thesis. This is a poorly executed flame; you look desperate for a fight, not intelligent discussion.

Ditto!

 

[The ClayTaurus]

OK simple examples of flaws in the book of Genesis.

1. God allegedly created light before he created the light producing objects. Seems silly to me.
2. God also created plantlife before creating the light producing objects. How would the process of photosynthesis take place without the sun?
3. The story of Noah is easily one of the most absurd fallacious and/or exagerrated stories ever.


It's just not a factual book. I'd love to have an 'intelligent' discussion on the matter but anyone who disagrees with me on this one probably isn't the brightest person in the world.

So you're going to start a thread and ask for intelligent discussion, yet pre-judge anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. Why even bother to start the thread in the first place then? You're killin' me here.

 

[Powerman]

So you're going to start a thread and ask for intelligent discussion, yet pre-judge anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. Why even bother to start the thread in the first place then? You're killin' me here.

I'm not prejudging anyone who wants to debate certain parts of it an idiot. But if you truly believe that everything in Genesis is 100% factual then you either have not read the book or you are very naive.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Using this thread as a barometer, it's no wonder your views on religion are so negative. You load the questions and slant the debate before it's even begun.

I dunno, a lot of what you bring up are issues that I'd be interested in people's opinions on, but you're so inflammatory that you squander any hope of productive discourse before it even begins.

 

[Powerman]

Using this thread as a barometer, it's no wonder your views on religion are so negative. You load the questions and slant the debate before it's even begun.

I dunno, a lot of what you bring up are issues that I'd be interested in people's opinions on, but you're so infammatory that you squander any hope of productive discourse before it even begins.

Well in that case maybe we can have this thread deleted and have a civil discussion about something else.

I didn't intend this to be a negative flame war. I'm just trying to figure out how people believe in something that seems so illogical and impossible to me.

 

[KarlMarx]

OK simple examples of flaws in the book of Genesis.

1. God allegedly created light before he created the light producing objects. Seems silly to me.

According to physics, this is quite possible. Light is carried by a particle known as a "photon" which existed long before matter or the conventional sort. Could talk about the four fundamental forces of nature here (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravity) and how at different stages of creation those forces became uncoupled....

2. God also created plantlife before creating the light producing objects.How would the process of photosynthesis take place without the sun?

Not all plants need photosynthesis to survive. Fungus is a good example. Have you ever heard of "athlete's foot"? That is caused by a plant (a fungus) that lives on your foot in a very dark place. Single celled plants can exist in very extreme conditions.... and I believe they have found plant life at the bottoms of oceans and in caves which are very very dark

3. The story of Noah is easily one of the most absurd fallacious and/or exagerrated stories ever.

After the last ice age, the mean sea level rose by 400 feet (as tall as a forty story building).... Ancient sites were found at the bottom of the Black Sea which were suddenly abandoned around 10000 BC (the end of the last ice age).... so the story of Noah has its roots in historical reality.

It's just not a factual book.

Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldees" ---- the city of Ur did exist, the Kurds (who live in northern Iraq) and Jews were found to be genetically similar.... so it is possible that a chieftain named Abraham who lived in Ur about 2700 BC migrated to Canaan

Joseph sold for 20 pieces of silver the going rate of slaves at the time

Egyptian priests had "dream books" which they used to interpret dreams, which is what is referred to in the account of Joseph....

Tower of Babel --- a ziggarut built by Nimrod, the founder of Ninevah who was leader of the Assyrians.

Saying that the Bible is just not factual is just plain wrong.

 

[theim]

OK simple examples of flaws in the book of Genesis.

1. God allegedly created light before he created the light producing objects. Seems silly to me.
2. God also created plantlife before creating the light producing objects. How would the process of photosynthesis take place without the sun?
3. The story of Noah is easily one of the most absurd fallacious and/or exagerrated stories ever.


It's just not a factual book. I'd love to have an 'intelligent' discussion on the matter but anyone who disagrees with me on this one probably isn't the brightest person in the world.

Now THAT is sig-worthy material.

 

[no1tovote4]

I understand that some people are fundamentalists and some aren't but you've got to be crazy to think that the book of Genesis is factual. I mean come on...the Catholics don't even believe in it anymore and they invented Christianity.

Amazingly you ignore about a billion different things that could effect the results.

Just a few questions for you:

1. If an omnipotent entity did exist could it effect a timeline where evolution happened in its reality in 6 days while effectively creating a reality for the created where billions of years had passed?

2. If an omnipotent entity caused such an effect would it be apparent to us in any detectable manner?

3. If such a being caused these effects could it be possible that both the Bible and Scientific findings might be 100% correct?

4. Is it possible that there are lines of thought that can arrive at the truth without the scientific process or are you so steeped in the dogma of scientism that you will never recover?

 

[Powerman]

OK simple examples of flaws in the book of Genesis.



According to physics, this is quite possible. Light is carried by a particle known as a "photon" which existed long before matter or the conventional sort. Could talk about the four fundamental forces of nature here (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravity) and how at different stages of creation those forces became uncoupled....




Not all plants need photosynthesis to survive. Fungus is a good example. Have you ever heard of "athlete's foot"? That is caused by a plant (a fungus) that lives on your foot in a very dark place. Single celled plants can exist in very extreme conditions.... and I believe they have found plant life at the bottoms of oceans and in caves which are very very dark





After the last ice age, the mean sea level rose by 400 feet (as tall as a forty story building).... Ancient sites were found at the bottom of the Black Sea which were suddenly abandoned around 10000 BC (the end of the last ice age).... so the story of Noah has its roots in historical reality.



Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldees" ---- the city of Ur did exist, the Kurds (who live in northern Iraq) and Jews were found to be genetically similar.... so it is possible that a chieftain named Abraham who lived in Ur about 2700 BC migrated to Canaan

Joseph sold for 20 pieces of silver the going rate of slaves at the time

Egyptian priests had "dream books" which they used to interpret dreams, which is what is referred to in the account of Joseph....

Tower of Babel --- a ziggarut built by Nimrod, the founder of Ninevah who was leader of the Assyrians.

Saying that the Bible is just not factual is just plain wrong.

Photons can emit light but with no sun or starts just how much light do you think there would be? Ever go out at night? Come on man...you're really stretching here.

As for the plant life do you really think that they were referring only to fungi and deep oceanic plant life? I doubt they even knew what that was at the time.



You say after the last ice age the mean sea level rose by 400 feet. That's pretty cute. The Bible is inconsistent with this on several levels.

1. The bible claims that the earth didn't even exist before the last ice age. It was allegedly created about 4 thousand years later.

2. Let's pretend that 1. isn't true. 400 feet is very high but let's not forget the Bible says that the waters covered the highest mountain with room to spare. Mount everest is somewhere around 29,000 feet above sea level if I'm not mistaken. That's not even close.

You say the story has roots in historical reality. There is some truth to a flood but it was a local river flood according to historians. It was NOT a global flood as depicted in the bible. So like I said it's at least an exaggeration.


You say that saying the bible is not factual is just plain wrong. It may be partially factual but that doesn't make it factual.

 

[Powerman]

1. If an omnipotent entity did exist could it effect a timeline where evolution happened in its reality in 6 days while effectively creating a reality for the created where billions of years had passed?

Sure an ominipotent entity could do anything so nothing would be out of the question. But if the Bible is the inspired word of God why leave some important details out? Is God trying to trick us?

2. If an omnipotent entity caused such an effect would it be apparent to us in any detectable manner?

No. Not that I know of. And not to get side tracked but that is precisely why ID can never be taught as science. Because there can be no proof for or against it.

3. If such a being caused these effects could it be possible that both the Bible and Scientific findings might be 100% correct?

I do not believe the Bible is 100% correct and believe that science is rarely 100% correct on anything.

4. Is it possible that there are lines of thought that can arrive at the truth without the scientific process or are you so steeped in the dogma of scientism that you will never recover?

I'm actually more of a mathematical and logical person. I don't know why you keep assuming that I am steeped in some dogma of scientism. Science isn't really my thing. But science has brought us many luxuries in life. I would love to know how much religion has held back science over the years. I would say that we are at least 300 years behind our potential because of religion holding back science.

 

[no1tovote4]

Sure an ominipotent entity could do anything so nothing would be out of the question. But if the Bible is the inspired word of God why leave some important details out? Is God trying to trick us?

Which portion was left out? It states that God said, "Let there be light and there was light." Could this be the Big Bang we hear so much about? That we would find no evidence of the omnipotent being does when studying it does not mean that the omnipotent being does not exist. In other words, coexistence is possible withing scientific discovery.

No. Not that I know of. And not to get side tracked but that is precisely why ID can never be taught as science. Because there can be no proof for or against it.

I never attempted to say that ID should be taught as Scientific Theory, this is an attempt to draw the discussion into another realm in which you are more comfortable.

I do not believe the Bible is 100% correct and believe that science is rarely 100% correct on anything.

Nor do I, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be wrong or that Science disproves religion. Neither is true. If, as you stated above, the Intelligent Designer could create the Universe on a timeline that seemed to be 6 days to him but billions of years to us and that followed Evolutionary timelines and processes then they could coexist meaningfully for religious people without disregarding scientific finding.

I'm actually more of a mathematical and logical person. I don't know why you keep assuming that I am steeped in some dogma of scientism. Science isn't really my thing. But science has brought us many luxuries in life. I would love to know how much religion has held back science over the years. I would say that we are at least 300 years behind our potential because of religion holding back science.

Because you state that Genesis and Science cannot coexist, I believe that I have given a reasonable approximation using logic to say that they can coexist without disregarding a single scientific finding. Both can be true.

 

[Powerman]

I never attempted to say that ID should be taught as Scientific Theory, this is an attempt to draw the discussion into another realm in which you are more comfortable.

On the contrary I'd rather not get sidetracked into that. I was just stating that that is precisely why I believe the way I do on the subject.

Nor do I, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be wrong or that Science disproves religion. Neither is true. If, as you stated above, the Intelligent Designer could create the Universe on a timeline that seemed to be 6 days to him but billions of years to us and that followed Evolutionary timelines and processes then they could coexist meaningfully for religious people without disregarding scientific finding.

Makes sense to me. So why do so many people oppose evolution. Why can't evolution and creation co-exist. If people would come to that one logical conclusion then we would never be talking about any of this nonsense. You can chalk that one up to the fundamentalists though. Science didn't come up with evolution for the sake of attacking the bible. But people sure act like they did.

 

[Powerman]

Because you state that Genesis and Science cannot coexist, I believe that I have given a reasonable approximation using logic to say that they can coexist without disregarding a single scientific finding. Both can be true.

Well going by your logic it's possible .

But the one story that still seems impossible is the flood story. How does this elderly man build an enormous boat and manage to put every species on the planet(and we can assume that there were more species then than not because many have been extinct) on to a boat with enough food for them and somehow manage not to kill everyone off with the inevitable diseases that would come from being stuck in a boat for 100 days surrounded by rotting feces. The thought of it makes me want to hurl.

 

[no1tovote4]

On the contrary I'd rather not get sidetracked into that. I was just stating that that is precisely why I believe the way I do on the subject.



Makes sense to me. So why do so many people oppose evolution. Why can't evolution and creation co-exist. If people would come to that one logical conclusion then we would never be talking about any of this nonsense. You can chalk that one up to the fundamentalists though. Science didn't come up with evolution for the sake of attacking the bible. But people sure act like they did.

Here we have found agreement.

 

[Powerman]

Here we have found agreement.

We probably agree on a lot of things. Just that people tend to jump at me because of the apparent bad reputation I've built around here.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

We probably agree on a lot of things. Just that people tend to jump at me because of the apparent bad reputation I've built around here.

It's the whole inferring people are idiots/being condescending thing. Most of us are very interested in what you have to say, we just don't want to be scoffed at for either not immediately understanding or not agreeing with you.