General Motors Green Revolution!!

[westwall]

And I've already said that GM didn't expect it to be profitable immediately. I guess I'll have to find that article now. However, are we supposed to just sit around while China, Japan and South Korea start reaping all the profits (and jobs) down the line? At what point does the United States get back in the game--regarding just about EVERYTHING?

I don't know the answer to your question Maggie. But common sense tells me that "investing" hundreds of millions of dollars to create products that do not sell - is not going to get the USA back in the game.

Well apparently even folks like Lamar Alexander don't agree.

Nissan turns over new Leaf to Sen. Lamar Alexander » Knoxville News Sentinel

Plugging in my new Leaf will give me the patriotic pleasure of not sending money overseas to people who are trying to blow us up," Alexander said.

If the United States can electrify half its vehicles within 20 years, it could reduce foreign oil consumption by about one third, from 20 million to 13 million barrels of oil per day, Alexander said, adding that the existing power infrastructure could support the goal if electric car users charged up at night while power demand is low, he said.

The fact that the Leaf will be produced in Tennessee starting in 2012 also was important to Alexander. The automobile industry has created great opportunities for jobs in the state going back to when he was governor, the senator said.

Alexander also discussed his plans for introducing legislation that would promote the sale and use of electric vehicles.

Based on the Electric Vehicle Deployment Act of 2010, the bill would direct the Secretary of Energy to support the nationwide deployment of electric vehicles and would offer technical assistance to state and communities to prepare for plug-in, electric-drive vehicles.

The act would include incentives such as tax credits in amounts up to $10,000 for electric-vehicle buyers, and it also would help build electric infrastructure such as charging stations eligible for a 50 percent tax credit. The Leaf, equipped with a lithium ion battery, can travel about 100 miles on a full charge.

As more people who can afford new ones, their old hybrids will be sold as used making those more affordable. That works the same as with any other brand.

I fear hybrids are going to have a relatively soft resale market because battery replacement is going to be an issue with them, as is the disposal of the toxic battery remains. That will drive their desirability down.

 

[westwall]

What a hoot. 281 cars! That was really worth bailing them out with billions and billions of taxpayer dollars.

This reminds me of how the ObamaCare program for the uninsured has enrollment rates far below projections.

And how millions of doses of swine flue vaccines for the Epidemic That Never Came To Be are wasting away towards their expiration dates.

I see a pattern....




of Faux Crises which have Led to Waste.

Oh boo hoo. I'm sick of your constant whining over how "bad" Obama has made things. How many JOBS were saved by bailing out GM (for which we ARE being reimbursed, although obviously not as fast as YOU would like)? Those lost jobs would have meant thousands more added to the unemployment rolls, meaning more government welfare. Duh...

The companies should have been allowed to collapse. That way new companies would arise in their place that could rehire the workers at a competitive wage. GM is going to fail again and take much more wealth down with it then if it had been allowed to go the first time. GM hasn't repaid anything yet. They "borrowed" money from TARP to pay that first installment, so in essence the government was repaid with government money from a different account. Either way that first payment was bogus.

 

[MaggieMae]

What a hoot. 281 cars! That was really worth bailing them out with billions and billions of taxpayer dollars.

This reminds me of how the ObamaCare program for the uninsured has enrollment rates far below projections.

And how millions of doses of swine flue vaccines for the Epidemic That Never Came To Be are wasting away towards their expiration dates.

I see a pattern....




of Faux Crises which have Led to Waste.

Oh boo hoo. I'm sick of your constant whining over how "bad" Obama has made things. How many JOBS were saved by bailing out GM (for which we ARE being reimbursed, although obviously not as fast as YOU would like)? Those lost jobs would have meant thousands more added to the unemployment rolls, meaning more government welfare. Duh...

The companies should have been allowed to collapse. That way new companies would arise in their place that could rehire the workers at a competitive wage. GM is going to fail again and take much more wealth down with it then if it had been allowed to go the first time. GM hasn't repaid anything yet. They "borrowed" money from TARP to pay that first installment, so in essence the government was repaid with government money from a different account. Either way that first payment was bogus.

Letting GM collapse would not have solved anything in the immediate panic. It would have had the opposite effect of destroying hundreds of small businesses that support the auto industry as well, while waiting for those "new companies" to arise. And what was the guarantee they would? No, I think it's all too frequently forgotten how dire the situation was. There was no TIME to do any speculation that other private entities would step in and pick up the pieces, especially since the whole business climate was jittery at the time.

Also, the payback is slowly getting done. The government has already sold part of its 61% stake in GM, which reduced its share to 33%. I would say if the government breaks even, it would have been well worth it.

 

[Sallow]

Oh boo hoo. I'm sick of your constant whining over how "bad" Obama has made things. How many JOBS were saved by bailing out GM (for which we ARE being reimbursed, although obviously not as fast as YOU would like)? Those lost jobs would have meant thousands more added to the unemployment rolls, meaning more government welfare. Duh...

The companies should have been allowed to collapse. That way new companies would arise in their place that could rehire the workers at a competitive wage. GM is going to fail again and take much more wealth down with it then if it had been allowed to go the first time. GM hasn't repaid anything yet. They "borrowed" money from TARP to pay that first installment, so in essence the government was repaid with government money from a different account. Either way that first payment was bogus.

Letting GM collapse would not have solved anything in the immediate panic. It would have had the opposite effect of destroying hundreds of small businesses that support the auto industry as well, while waiting for those "new companies" to arise. And what was the guarantee they would? No, I think it's all too frequently forgotten how dire the situation was. There was no TIME to do any speculation that other private entities would step in and pick up the pieces, especially since the whole business climate was jittery at the time.

Also, the payback is slowly getting done. The government has already sold part of its 61% stake in GM, which reduced its share to 33%. I would say if the government breaks even, it would have been well worth it.

Letting GM collapse would have probably ended the auto industry in the United States as we know it.

 

[Sallow]

Uh yeah, right, you are so smart you can't figure out that 650 bucks with good range is going to be more desirable than 1750 dollars and a crappy range. In a pigs eye you make six figures.

You think six figures is alot?

Really?

Seriously?



And maybe you should bother reading your own links..

While basic electric cars cost under $1,000, most early electric vehicles were ornate, massive carriages designed for the upper class. They had fancy interiors, with expensive materials, and averaged $3,000 by 1910. Electric vehicles enjoyed success into the 1920s with production peaking in 1912.

Now you're cutting and pasting like olfraud, this is the relevent portion that deals with the end of the electric car market, which was challenging the ICE market until the 1920's. Then the economics of the ICE got to be so much better that only a silly person would buy one. Someone like you perhaps?

And no 6 figures isn't a great deal of money, but those who mention how much they make often do think it's a lot, otherwise why mention it?

Oh yes here's that little information...please note the emphasis on efficiency.

By contrast, the price of the less efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to rise. In 1912, an electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car sold for $650.

Frankly, I hadn't heard or read about an Electric car being produced in the 20s. However your own link pointed out that it had been targeted for upper class clients which basically means that it was meant to be a niche product.

Big oil has had a big impact on the course of this country. Trying to discount that is pretty naive.

 

[Ernie S.]

You're kinda slow son.....Free Software Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is free and will always be free. Redhat is not LINUX.

anyone can download Linux for free. It is freeware.

RedHat is not Linux?



Oh man..thanks for the laugh.

Red Hat is not Linux. Sorry. But please do continue to make a total and complete ass of yourself, you do it very well!

Red Hat is one of a large number of Linux distributions. Red Hat IS a linux operating system as is SUSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu and dozens of others.
The Linux kernel and most software written for the OS is free. Red Hat (and other distributions) generates income from supporting users and developing computing environments for specific tasks.

 

[westwall]

Oh boo hoo. I'm sick of your constant whining over how "bad" Obama has made things. How many JOBS were saved by bailing out GM (for which we ARE being reimbursed, although obviously not as fast as YOU would like)? Those lost jobs would have meant thousands more added to the unemployment rolls, meaning more government welfare. Duh...

The companies should have been allowed to collapse. That way new companies would arise in their place that could rehire the workers at a competitive wage. GM is going to fail again and take much more wealth down with it then if it had been allowed to go the first time. GM hasn't repaid anything yet. They "borrowed" money from TARP to pay that first installment, so in essence the government was repaid with government money from a different account. Either way that first payment was bogus.

Letting GM collapse would not have solved anything in the immediate panic. It would have had the opposite effect of destroying hundreds of small businesses that support the auto industry as well, while waiting for those "new companies" to arise. And what was the guarantee they would? No, I think it's all too frequently forgotten how dire the situation was. There was no TIME to do any speculation that other private entities would step in and pick up the pieces, especially since the whole business climate was jittery at the time.

Also, the payback is slowly getting done. The government has already sold part of its 61% stake in GM, which reduced its share to 33%. I would say if the government breaks even, it would have been well worth it.

The problem Maggie is that the collapse is going to occur. GM is too bloated and inefficient to compete with the likes of Toyota or Subaru. It is terrible that some companies would likewise go under but they too are antiquated and inefficient in many cases and will likewise fall by the wayside in due course. It is far better to let the damage occur early then wait and magnify the issue. That's why GM is in such bad straights now, they knew there was a problem and they kept ignoring it. At some point the end is going to come regardless of your good intentions. And the damage is going to be far greater because of it.

 

[westwall]

The companies should have been allowed to collapse. That way new companies would arise in their place that could rehire the workers at a competitive wage. GM is going to fail again and take much more wealth down with it then if it had been allowed to go the first time. GM hasn't repaid anything yet. They "borrowed" money from TARP to pay that first installment, so in essence the government was repaid with government money from a different account. Either way that first payment was bogus.

Letting GM collapse would not have solved anything in the immediate panic. It would have had the opposite effect of destroying hundreds of small businesses that support the auto industry as well, while waiting for those "new companies" to arise. And what was the guarantee they would? No, I think it's all too frequently forgotten how dire the situation was. There was no TIME to do any speculation that other private entities would step in and pick up the pieces, especially since the whole business climate was jittery at the time.

Also, the payback is slowly getting done. The government has already sold part of its 61% stake in GM, which reduced its share to 33%. I would say if the government breaks even, it would have been well worth it.

Letting GM collapse would have probably ended the auto industry in the United States as we know it.

Really? Seems to me there are some mighty fine plants in South Carolina and Indiana to name just a couple. It would have been the end of the UAW, that much I'll grant you, but that in the long run would be a good thing. But the auto industry as a whole? Nope.

 

[Ernie S.]

You're wrong. Just admit it. It isn't a crime to be mistaken. Grown men admit when they are wrong, immature boys deflect, spin and deny.

Linux is freeware that anyone can download and use. You don't need or require Red Hat to use Linux.

Red Hat uses the Linux Kernel. Red Hat is not Linux.

My friends at GNU- who invented LINUX- will get a good laugh at what a total douchebag you are....

No..you're wrong. Red Hat is a company that makes a brand of Linux. That's what they sell. That's what the company is based on. It's like your trying to tell me that GM isn't a car company because they don't make FORD cars. It's an absolutely absurd point.

It's also like saying that HP/DG/SUN/SOLARIS/SGI didn't make a UNIX OS because it didn't come out of Berkley or ATT.

Linux is an Operating System. It's based on UNIX...except you have a wider range of hardware platforms you can run it on.

Hilarious!!

Sorry - but Red Hat is STILL not Linux.

You said that Red Hat was Linux. That is not true. Red Hat is not Linux. You are wrong. There is no grey area.

When mature adults make statements that are found to be factually incorrect, such as the statements you have made in this thread - they admit it. It's what grown-ups do.

Grow up.

So grow up!

 

[westwall]

You think six figures is alot?

Really?

Seriously?



And maybe you should bother reading your own links..

Now you're cutting and pasting like olfraud, this is the relevent portion that deals with the end of the electric car market, which was challenging the ICE market until the 1920's. Then the economics of the ICE got to be so much better that only a silly person would buy one. Someone like you perhaps?

And no 6 figures isn't a great deal of money, but those who mention how much they make often do think it's a lot, otherwise why mention it?

Oh yes here's that little information...please note the emphasis on efficiency.

By contrast, the price of the less efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to rise. In 1912, an electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car sold for $650.

Frankly, I hadn't heard or read about an Electric car being produced in the 20s. However your own link pointed out that it had been targeted for upper class clients which basically means that it was meant to be a niche product.

Big oil has had a big impact on the course of this country. Trying to discount that is pretty naive.

Of course big oil has. And the vast majority of that impact has been positive or don't you like having auto's and planes and trains? I am also not surprised you had no idea about the original electric cars, they were around even before the ICE vehicles got truly started and were the prime competetion for ICE powered vehicles. The fact remains however, when a ICE vehicle came along that cost less than half of the electric the electric was doomed. Not because of some big plot by big oil but because a niche market can only support a very small number of employees. The auto industry grew to the size it did because they could make cars cheap enough that the average working family could afford them. If all you had were a few rich people buying a few vehicles there would have been no road construction, there would have been very little advancement in technology etc.

You have to THINK about what goes on in the world. You can't just wish it. You have to analyse all that happens and then make a decision on what will work and what won't. The Tesla won't work because it is too expensive and not efficient enough. If they ever develop the technology to actually produce the S model they may stand a chance as a BMW
analog but I still doubt it because of the inherent difficulties of EV's.

 

[Ernie S.]

I'll type really slow, just for you Sallow - this is Linux....
Click the link>>>> Linux.com | The source for Linux information <<< click the link


They are a non-profit organization.


Red Hat is a separate, independent, for profit company. Different name. Different company.

Clear enough??
Damn you're dense....

So in your world a Cadillac isn't an automobile because it isn't the only car company?
I guess your claim is that because Linux is free, a company that generates a profit from the OS can't be Linux? Fucked up semantics at best. Fighting for a lost cause to save face at worst.

 

[Trajan]

The royalties are now treated as taxes which can be written off dollar-for-dollar. Read this:

What Obama should know about ending oil subsidies | Grist

are you referring this?

All of this matters, because in the 1950's, the Saudi Arabian and other Persian Gulf governments wanted to increase their share of oil revenues from U.S. based oil companies, and were considering raising their royalty payments. Royalty payments are like licensing fees that oil companies pay to the countries they drill in for the right extract the oil. The IRS treats them as a deductible business expense.

The U.S. State Department, eager to keep the Saudi government happy and the oil in the hands of U.S. companies, negotiated a deal whereby the governments would raise their royalty payments the companies had to pay them, but to reclassify them as income taxes. In the end, these governments collected more money from the oil companies, but the oil companies got a dollar-for-dollar reduction in their U.S. tax liabilities, so that the net effect was a reduction in U.S. tax revenues -- to the tune of $15 billion total in just the years between 2002 and 2008 -- while the oil companies themselves came out no worse, or perhaps slightly better off.

Yes. Wouldn't that explain, at least partly, how Exxon-Mobil was able to reduce it's entire 2009 tax burden down to zero?

and the causation is...?It was at the time a geo-political trade off...

 

[Trajan]

And I've already said that GM didn't expect it to be profitable immediately. I guess I'll have to find that article now. However, are we supposed to just sit around while China, Japan and South Korea start reaping all the profits (and jobs) down the line? At what point does the United States get back in the game--regarding just about EVERYTHING?

I don't know the answer to your question Maggie. But common sense tells me that "investing" hundreds of millions of dollars to create products that do not sell - is not going to get the USA back in the game.

Well apparently even folks like Lamar Alexander don't agree.

Nissan turns over new Leaf to Sen. Lamar Alexander » Knoxville News Sentinel

Plugging in my new Leaf will give me the patriotic pleasure of not sending money overseas to people who are trying to blow us up," Alexander said.

If the United States can electrify half its vehicles within 20 years, it could reduce foreign oil consumption by about one third, from 20 million to 13 million barrels of oil per day, Alexander said, adding that the existing power infrastructure could support the goal if electric car users charged up at night while power demand is low, he said.

The fact that the Leaf will be produced in Tennessee starting in 2012 also was important to Alexander. The automobile industry has created great opportunities for jobs in the state going back to when he was governor, the senator said.

Alexander also discussed his plans for introducing legislation that would promote the sale and use of electric vehicles.

Based on the Electric Vehicle Deployment Act of 2010, the bill would direct the Secretary of Energy to support the nationwide deployment of electric vehicles and would offer technical assistance to state and communities to prepare for plug-in, electric-drive vehicles.

The act would include incentives such as tax credits in amounts up to $10,000 for electric-vehicle buyers, and it also would help build electric infrastructure such as charging stations eligible for a 50 percent tax credit. The Leaf, equipped with a lithium ion battery, can travel about 100 miles on a full charge.

As more people who can afford new ones, their old hybrids will be sold as used making those more affordable. That works the same as with any other brand.

no offense but I don't care if it was Ronald Reagan. 10K to pay to get them on the road. Wonderful. And our grid cannot possibly sppt. half the cars on the road as electric.


and these OLD hybrids need what exactly?Old is relative, I think the accepted OLD estimate is between 100 and 150k ? Toyota themselves say they built the batteries to last the life of the vehicle....150k to 200, fine lets split the difference at 150-175k ....? You have to buy the car and then, as a second owner, a huge capital cost- NEW battery's....do you know what they cost? I have found figures from 3500-7000k on Prius user sites...*shrugs* not fo me thank you. I can get a rebuilt engine and tranny for that, easy.

 

[Flopper]

Now you're cutting and pasting like olfraud, this is the relevent portion that deals with the end of the electric car market, which was challenging the ICE market until the 1920's. Then the economics of the ICE got to be so much better that only a silly person would buy one. Someone like you perhaps?

And no 6 figures isn't a great deal of money, but those who mention how much they make often do think it's a lot, otherwise why mention it?

Oh yes here's that little information...please note the emphasis on efficiency.

By contrast, the price of the less efficiently produced electric vehicles continued to rise. In 1912, an electric roadster sold for $1,750, while a gasoline car sold for $650.

Frankly, I hadn't heard or read about an Electric car being produced in the 20s. However your own link pointed out that it had been targeted for upper class clients which basically means that it was meant to be a niche product.

Big oil has had a big impact on the course of this country. Trying to discount that is pretty naive.

Of course big oil has. And the vast majority of that impact has been positive or don't you like having auto's and planes and trains? I am also not surprised you had no idea about the original electric cars, they were around even before the ICE vehicles got truly started and were the prime competetion for ICE powered vehicles. The fact remains however, when a ICE vehicle came along that cost less than half of the electric the electric was doomed. Not because of some big plot by big oil but because a niche market can only support a very small number of employees. The auto industry grew to the size it did because they could make cars cheap enough that the average working family could afford them. If all you had were a few rich people buying a few vehicles there would have been no road construction, there would have been very little advancement in technology etc.

You have to THINK about what goes on in the world. You can't just wish it. You have to analyse all that happens and then make a decision on what will work and what won't. The Tesla won't work because it is too expensive and not efficient enough. If they ever develop the technology to actually produce the S model they may stand a chance as a BMW
analog but I still doubt it because of the inherent difficulties of EV's.

When we first started using petroleum, we scooped it up in a bucket. Then we put down wells similar to water wells pumping the oil from just a few hundred feet. We developed more powerful wells and started bringing up oil form thousands of feet. Now we have offshore drilling platforms that bring oil up from miles under the surface. The cost is in hundreds millions and the potential for environmental damage is huge. In 50 years I have seen the cost of oil go from $2 a barrel to over hundred dollars a barrel. At the rate it has increased over the last 50 years, gas will cost over $100/gal by mid century.

To me it is not a question of when we will go to another primary fuel, it's a question of how fast.

 

[Ernie S.]

Spin away douchebag...everyone knows you misspoke. You are not a big enough man to admit it. No biggie to me.

Misspoke what? I didn't say anything. Not a word. You are lying now.

I typed it in on a keyboard.

What a lying buffon you turned out to be.

And I'd love to see you use this line of reasoning if you were to apply for a job in IT.

They'd laugh you out of the building.

Weak.

Yeah sure they would. And then you can explain how Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, et. al. are all really MICROSOFT.



They all use Windows operating system. So according to your logic, they are all Microsoft. Right dumbass?

Piss poor analogy, unless you are trying to make my point. Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, et. al. are not operating systems. They are PC's just like Red Hat, SUSE, Ubuntu et. al. are Linuxes

 

[westwall]

Frankly, I hadn't heard or read about an Electric car being produced in the 20s. However your own link pointed out that it had been targeted for upper class clients which basically means that it was meant to be a niche product.

Big oil has had a big impact on the course of this country. Trying to discount that is pretty naive.

Of course big oil has. And the vast majority of that impact has been positive or don't you like having auto's and planes and trains? I am also not surprised you had no idea about the original electric cars, they were around even before the ICE vehicles got truly started and were the prime competetion for ICE powered vehicles. The fact remains however, when a ICE vehicle came along that cost less than half of the electric the electric was doomed. Not because of some big plot by big oil but because a niche market can only support a very small number of employees. The auto industry grew to the size it did because they could make cars cheap enough that the average working family could afford them. If all you had were a few rich people buying a few vehicles there would have been no road construction, there would have been very little advancement in technology etc.

You have to THINK about what goes on in the world. You can't just wish it. You have to analyse all that happens and then make a decision on what will work and what won't. The Tesla won't work because it is too expensive and not efficient enough. If they ever develop the technology to actually produce the S model they may stand a chance as a BMW
analog but I still doubt it because of the inherent difficulties of EV's.

When we first started using petroleum, we scooped it up in a bucket. Then we put down wells similar to water wells pumping the oil from just a few hundred feet. We developed more powerful wells and started bringing up oil form thousands of feet. Now we have offshore drilling platforms that bring oil up from miles under the surface. The cost is in hundreds millions and the potential for environmental damage is huge. In 50 years I have seen the cost of oil go from $2 a barrel to over hundred dollars a barrel. At the rate it has increased over the last 50 years, gas will cost over $100/gal by mid century.

To me it is not a question of when we will go to another primary fuel, it's a question of how fast.

The current demand will support a per barrel price of 50 dollars. All the rest is due to commodities brokers driving up the prices. You might also want to remember that your house was worth 8,000 dollars when oil was 2 bucks a barrel. That is called inflation. That part of the equation is due to the economic philosophy's of the ruling politicians.

 

[Toronado3800]

What is the life of the average gasoline engine anymore? I put 270...er 280k? miles on my Toronado, have 156k on my MarkVIII and this one I spin up fairly often.

Honestly I figure hybrids are over complicated. True electric cars with on board gas engines for electrical generation should be the wave of the future. My weed eater can spin a half dozen alternators.

 

[westwall]

What is the life of the average gasoline engine anymore? I put 270...er 280k? miles on my Toronado, have 156k on my MarkVIII and this one I spin up fairly often.

Honestly I figure hybrids are over complicated. True electric cars with on board gas engines for electrical generation should be the wave of the future. My weed eater can spin a half dozen alternators.

Depends on the engine. The new ones will last indefinately so long as they are properly maintained. I had a 4.6 litre V8 powered Thunderbird and I was getting better gas mileage and was turning lower revs after 240,000 miles then when I bought it new. It didn't accelerate as fast because it was down on overall horsepower, but once it got up to speed it maintained that speed easier.

 

[Zander]

RedHat is not Linux?



Oh man..thanks for the laugh.

Red Hat is not Linux. Sorry. But please do continue to make a total and complete ass of yourself, you do it very well!

Red Hat is one of a large number of Linux distributions. Red Hat IS a linux operating system as is SUSE, Gentoo, Ubuntu and dozens of others.
The Linux kernel and most software written for the OS is free. Red Hat (and other distributions) generates income from supporting users and developing computing environments for specific tasks.

You made my case for me. Red hat is one of many Linux distributions. Their software uses a Linux kernel. They are still not "Linux"- Linux is a non-profit organization. Red Hat is a for profit company. Thanks!

 

[Flopper]

Misspoke what? I didn't say anything. Not a word. You are lying now.

I typed it in on a keyboard.

What a lying buffon you turned out to be.

And I'd love to see you use this line of reasoning if you were to apply for a job in IT.

They'd laugh you out of the building.

Weak.

Yeah sure they would. And then you can explain how Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, et. al. are all really MICROSOFT.



They all use Windows operating system. So according to your logic, they are all Microsoft. Right dumbass?

Piss poor analogy, unless you are trying to make my point. Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, et. al. are not operating systems. They are PC's just like Red Hat, SUSE, Ubuntu et. al. are Linuxes

Actually, Dell, HP, Sony, Gateway, et. are just computer manufactures. I think they are all shipped with either Windows 7 or Vista installed. Any of the Intel based operating systems will run on their computers including Linux and it's variations.