Gender bias: Spiritual or Economic cause?

[Anachronism]

emily, I've finally got a couple of minutes to really respond at length.... I'll start by admitting to being a Patriarchist and something of a Mysoginist. I'm a very strong believer in appropriate Gender Roles and the idea that the decline of such things has been a major factor in the decline of the United States and the Western World in general.

Regardless of what the particular reason for gender bias, it has existed in almost every society over the course of recorded human history. When one studies religions/mythologies (which are really the same thing), the impetus for the inclusion of "Evil" in the world is very commonly a woman (Eve & Pandora being the two most well known stories).

In my mind the biggest problem in terms of gender relations is the mistaking of the concept of Equality with the concept of Sameness. In my mind Men and women are two sides of the same coin. Yin & Yang, Creation and Destruction, if you will. The world cannot properly exist without both forces co-existing in some level of unity and harmony. However, as the industrialization of the world occured, there became a surplus of people and time for the things that needed to be done. With that mechanization we also removed a lot of the necessity for one gender or the other to be involved in specific tasks due to physical or emotional/psychological differences between Men and women. With the necessary and natural distinctions between the roles of Men and women blurred by these "advances" in society, some individuals have sought to remove ALL distinctions between the genders. The first steps included voting rights; removal of restrictions on appropriate careers and education levels; etc....

Over the last century we've seen the "Women's Movement" constantly chip away at all distinctions between Men and women in society. I don't think that's even debatable. They will claim that they're all about Equality, when in reality what they seek is Sameness. Let's see if I can clarify what I mean by that.... Let's take a quarter. It has two sides, a Head and a Tail. The total value of the quarter is $0.25. Which side of the quarter is worth more? Neither. Without both sides properly struck the coin is faulty and worthless. Each side of the coin has the same value, with is the sum total of both sides together. That is the way that nature has always intended Men and women to exist. Each side of the equation complimenting and supplementing the strengths and weaknesses of the other. Now another question.... Which has more value; a quarter or twenty-five pennies? Neither. They both have an equal value (one-fourth of a dollar). However, they are not the same coinage, and at times that can make a major difference. Try using those pennies in the soda machine at work. Try using the quarter in the penny-candy dispenser at the store. In both cases the value of the coins is less important than the particular coins themselves. Likewise, there are things that Men and women as separate genders are better adapted to do in life. In attempting to not only ignore those natural adaptations, but to alleviate them by force of law, we do ourselves a major disservice, and I believe our society shows itself as being much worse off for having done so.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Men are just smarter.

 

[Iridescence]

....................
Long ago I read that a woman is always half in love with a man who listens to her. Half ? ..........................

The other 'half' of 'her love' comes once 'he' learns to actually utilize what 'he' has 'heard'.

Honestly, it seems that more than not it depends on each and every individual that one comes across, as there are no 'real' set rules... and those personality type classifications? Those only touch on the most basic stereotypical research.

From my experience with 'Religion', it doesn't necessarily teach the man as the absolute head, as there are many underlying factors that come into scripture and one's perception of it.

 

[Avatar4321]

Perhaps the answer is simply that there are Eternal differences between men and women. Maybe we should celebrate our differences instead of always trying to be the same. I think it's those differences that grounds us together and helps us raise children.

 

[midcan5]

Whether or not these articles illuminate or complexinate the topic, I thought them funny interesting and honest.

Talking Philosophy | What Lesbians Don’t Understand About Heterosexual Men

What straight men don't understand about lesbians | Julie Bindel | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[Anachronism]

Perhaps the answer is simply that there are Eternal differences between men and women. Maybe we should celebrate our differences instead of always trying to be the same. I think it's those differences that grounds us together and helps us raise children.

I agree wholeheartedly. Instead of trying to ensure that everyone is exactly the same maybe we should embrace and celebrate the grand differences between Men and women. The world requires balance to continue to run properly. We have seriously thrown that balance out of whack in the last century. House-husbands, female firefighters and CEO's, etc.... and yet we wonder why our society is crumbling around us.

 

[Avatar4321]

Perhaps the answer is simply that there are Eternal differences between men and women. Maybe we should celebrate our differences instead of always trying to be the same. I think it's those differences that grounds us together and helps us raise children.

I agree wholeheartedly. Instead of trying to ensure that everyone is exactly the same maybe we should embrace and celebrate the grand differences between Men and women. The world requires balance to continue to run properly. We have seriously thrown that balance out of whack in the last century. House-husbands, female firefighters and CEO's, etc.... and yet we wonder why our society is crumbling around us.

Funny, I don't have a problem with any of those, though I can't imagine a true "house-husband" who isn't just some lazy dude trying to live off his woman.

Whats wrong with female firefighters and CEOs. Simply because men and women are different doesn't means that roles can't and don't overlap at all.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Things are the way they are b/c we have been doing it that way since before we learned to read and write.

The only differences are small and based on the current needs, or lack of, in modern society.

Men take a more active role in child raising now than ever before. Why? B/c we no longer need to work the fields or hunt enough food to feed everyone.

Women take a far less active role. Why? B/c they are taking jobs outside the home.

Each generation of kids is more screwed up than the last. Why? B/c fathers don't have eons of memory to draw upon to codle kids when they need it and the mothers, who know how to codle, are not there as often.

Think I'm fulla shit?

When you went to school. Did you have to pass through metal detectors?
Did a kid ever bring a rifle in for show-and-tell?
Was there gangs that you knew would kill you if you crossed them?

for me, that goes; no - yes - no

What did you call the kid that pulled a weapon out in a fight?
We called him a punk or chicken. Now; He's da man.


sorry, I wondered off topic.

 

[Anachronism]

Funny, I don't have a problem with any of those, though I can't imagine a true "house-husband" who isn't just some lazy dude trying to live off his woman.

Whats wrong with female firefighters and CEOs. Simply because men and women are different doesn't means that roles can't and don't overlap at all.

See, I do have a problem with those things.

The "house-husbands" that I know are exactly that, Avatar; a bunch of worthless, lazy sacks of shit too incompetent or unmotivated to be able to support their family the way they should be.

As I've alluded to more than once, I'm a strong believer in gender roles and responsibilities. There are just certain jobs that I don't believe are appropriate for women and others which are not appropriate for a man. What an individual man or woman CAN do or WANTS to do is much less important in my mind than what a member of their gender SHOULD do. While I agree there IS an overlap, it's a pretty small one in my mind.

 

[emilynghiem]

Men are just smarter.

Smarter Asses maybe? ha ha

Just kidding.

I think it depends on the people, have not heard of any stats
on either males or females averaging any higher or lower in intelligence by gender.

I do understand there are studies showing
men and women use the brain differently;
that men tend to use one side or the other at a time,
while women cross over and use both sides at the same time.

If that affected certain types of intelligence aptitudes in application,
I could see how that may affect
men scoring higher in certain skills, that benefit from having a separate kind of focus
or ability to compartmentalize, while
women perform better at other tasks, such as requiring holistic analysis, intuition or
emotional intelligence for example.

There was an award-winning author recently who made a public statement
that he does not think any woman could match his literary mastery of prose,
claiming it has to do with women being too emotional or something like that.

I don't think you can compare writing styles in an objective way, to say one
style is better than another, though you can say if it is effective or not in its own genre.

If you want to say more men are famous in history for what they have written or published than women, could you also say that more men are famous than women for negative things also, like war and rape and other crimes. Can you really make a blanket statement based on gender by looking at statistics that way?

In terms of intelligence, I could probably compete well if you consider both the academic type of intelligence and the emotional intelligence together. If you only looked at academic intelligence, there are many geniuses so far superior, there is no contest. But maybe considering the wider range of intelligences, I could make up in other areas, whereas most people might excel in fewer areas or just one but not across the board.

Same with writing: If I were to compete with any one person in many different genres and formats, I could make up points that way by excelling in several different ones. But given any specific field, of course other people could smear me easily who specialize in it.

I assume people tend to average out the same way; wherever we have areas of strengths, we have other areas of weakness. And even some weaknesses can serves as a strength, and some strengths can become weaknesses depending on the circumstances.

I don't know how you can judge or measure these things perfectly.
I think we can recognize some trends, but then we have to interpret the data, factors,
and reasons carefully to identify what is really being exhibited as a visible difference.

Downright fascinating to me!

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Men are just smarter.

Smarter Asses maybe? ha ha

Just kidding.

I think it depends on the people, have not heard of any stats
on either males or females averaging any higher or lower in intelligence by gender.

Most of the accepted studies these days show that women in general are better with verbal reasoning and that men in general are better with spatial reasoning.

 

[emilynghiem]

....................
Long ago I read that a woman is always half in love with a man who listens to her. Half ? ..........................

The other 'half' of 'her love' comes once 'he' learns to actually utilize what 'he' has 'heard'.

Honestly, it seems that more than not it depends on each and every individual that one comes across, as there are no 'real' set rules... and those personality type classifications? Those only touch on the most basic stereotypical research.

From my experience with 'Religion', it doesn't necessarily teach the man as the absolute head, as there are many underlying factors that come into scripture and one's perception of it.

Hi Melissa
1. It was explained to me that only if the man submits fully to Christ and God's will,
as Christ lay down his life for his Bride the people or the church body, then he has that position as the head of the family. Once you submit to Christ, then husband and wife submit one to another equally, though they play different roles.

The passage in Paul, where women were scolded for speaking out and were instructed to wait until called upon to speak, refers to women like students in a classroom who were gossipping and being disruptive. So the classroom etiquette applies where students raise their hands to be called upon before speaking, and do not speak out of turn to interrupt the teacher.

In practice, all people may be teachers or leaders in one field or project or task,
but then be followers or students under another person in a different circumstance.

So this way, we are all equal; we lead when we are in charge or the head of a project, and we follow when we are serving as the helpmeet or team partner to other people.

Ideally we are all supposed to be as the "Bride of Christ" where the "people" are the "church body" working in agreement to respect universal laws (or in secular law, the "people" are the "government" and we submit equally to rule of law).

2. As for men and women in love and relations, perhaps the role of women in general is to help keep men in check by telling them how they are wrong and making corrections in private, before they make a fool of themselves in public.

I think it was C.S. Lewis (?) who said that if women were in charge of decisions, they would favor their own families and interests while seeing men as more objective in governing greater society; but I think that could be the other way around, too, where men will stick to their opinion, right or wrong, to defend their honor and image and not always be able to work cooperatively with other people doing the same thing. So it is the communications behind the scenes that allows for conflict resolution and common focus; where women's ability to emphathize "in relation to others" may help facilitate the process.

So I might agree with this idea of why men may dominate in the roles as public figures and leaders in making definite decisions, but disagree in that I believe women serve an equally critical role in the peacemaking and negotiations necessary behind the scenes to include and incorporate relative views and points in the process of making a fair decision.

It is this side of the democratic process I am concerned gets lost in patriarchal politics or whatever you call the use of majority-rule to bully or bulldoze over dissenting input.

On a local individual level, if women help men, or people help each other, to consider and incorporate a fuller perspective in decisions in relation to the interests of others (instead of just favoring or imposing their opinion on others by force, emotional or physical) then whatever "feminism" is trying to push for will be accomplished whether it's women's contributions being unfairly oppressed or people in general being treated unequally.

The same problems will be solved by respecting and including people equally.

 

[emilynghiem]

Most of the accepted studies these days show that women in general are better with verbal reasoning and that men in general are better with spatial reasoning.

Does this explain the difference in asking for directions, where
more men will apply their "spatial skills" and not ask,
while more women will apply their "verbal skills" and ask?

Hmmmm....

The other day, I found myself following my bf around a home improvement
store because he would not stop to ask for directions. Not even in a store!

I thought my job was to help him load the AC unit in the car,
but apparently it was to ask the clerks where to find it!!!

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Most of the accepted studies these days show that women in general are better with verbal reasoning and that men in general are better with spatial reasoning.

Does this explain the difference in asking for directions, where
more men will apply their "spatial skills" and not ask,
while more women will apply their "verbal skills" and ask?

Hmmmm....

Could be. It might also explain why top male chess players have considerably stronger records than their female counterparts.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Men are just smarter.

Smarter Asses maybe? ha ha

Just kidding.

I think it depends on the people, have not heard of any stats
on either males or females averaging any higher or lower in intelligence by gender.

I do understand there are studies showing
men and women use the brain differently;
that men tend to use one side or the other at a time,
while women cross over and use both sides at the same time.

If that affected certain types of intelligence aptitudes in application,
I could see how that may affect
men scoring higher in certain skills, that benefit from having a separate kind of focus
or ability to compartmentalize, while
women perform better at other tasks, such as requiring holistic analysis, intuition or
emotional intelligence for example.

There was an award-winning author recently who made a public statement
that he does not think any woman could match his literary mastery of prose,
claiming it has to do with women being too emotional or something like that.

I don't think you can compare writing styles in an objective way, to say one
style is better than another, though you can say if it is effective or not in its own genre.

If you want to say more men are famous in history for what they have written or published than women, could you also say that more men are famous than women for negative things also, like war and rape and other crimes. Can you really make a blanket statement based on gender by looking at statistics that way?

In terms of intelligence, I could probably compete well if you consider both the academic type of intelligence and the emotional intelligence together. If you only looked at academic intelligence, there are many geniuses so far superior, there is no contest. But maybe considering the wider range of intelligences, I could make up in other areas, whereas most people might excel in fewer areas or just one but not across the board.

Same with writing: If I were to compete with any one person in many different genres and formats, I could make up points that way by excelling in several different ones. But given any specific field, of course other people could smear me easily who specialize in it.

I assume people tend to average out the same way; wherever we have areas of strengths, we have other areas of weakness. And even some weaknesses can serves as a strength, and some strengths can become weaknesses depending on the circumstances.

I don't know how you can judge or measure these things perfectly.
I think we can recognize some trends, but then we have to interpret the data, factors,
and reasons carefully to identify what is really being exhibited as a visible difference.

Downright fascinating to me!

In some ways we, men and women, use the brain differently. In some ways men are generally smarter about certain kinds of things, women, generally smarter about other kinds of things. Or maybe smarter is not the right word. How about different? See Wonky Pundit's post.

Me? I just see it as God's way of joining two halves to make a whole.

Men are inherently more brutal and less emotional than women, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, certainly not a bad thing in a good man. It's a rough world. Evil is real and has to be confronted, sometimes with deadly force. Boys need to be properly socialized or it's a real problem for society.

I'm a former soldier, an Army Ranger. I'm in my fifties, so I'm not as spry as I used to be. But I'm still a dangerous man to cross. My natural inclination is to protect women and children, and I'm a soft touch. But then I was raised by a stern yet kind and gentle father. So I was kept in line coming up and shown what respect and compassion are by example.

 

[emilynghiem]

Could be. It might also explain why top male chess players have considerably stronger records than their female counterparts.

Could there be other social or economic factors involved?
Like what it takes for top experts to pursue a career or record in chess,
and if this is different for women and men? Economically or socially?

Any stats if more men pursue chess than women on a serious competitive level?
Could it be more socially acceptable for men to be "chess nerds" than for women?

In the research on gender in math and sciences, the trends show that female students score higher than male counterparts, up to a certain age in school, then this advantage suddenly drops off. This is attributed to socialization, so that more initiatives have been targeting and mentoring women in the fields of math and science to compensate.

Could this be a similar situation, I wonder?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Could be. It might also explain why top male chess players have considerably stronger records than their female counterparts.

Could there be other social or economic factors involved?
Like what it takes for top experts to pursue a career or record in chess,
and if this is different for women and men? Economically or socially?

Any stats if more men pursue chess than women on a serious competitive level?
Could it be more socially acceptable for men to be "chess nerds" than for women?

In the research on gender in math and sciences, the trends show that female students score higher than male counterparts, up to a certain age in school, then this advantage suddenly drops off. This is attributed to socialization, so that more initiatives have been targeting and mentoring women in the fields of math and science to compensate.

Could this be a similar situation, I wonder?

You ask hard questions.

 

[Wonky Pundit]

Could be. It might also explain why top male chess players have considerably stronger records than their female counterparts.

Could there be other social or economic factors involved?
Like what it takes for top experts to pursue a career or record in chess,
and if this is different for women and men? Economically or socially?

Any stats if more men pursue chess than women on a serious competitive level?
Could it be more socially acceptable for men to be "chess nerds" than for women?

In the research on gender in math and sciences, the trends show that female students score higher than male counterparts, up to a certain age in school, then this advantage suddenly drops off. This is attributed to socialization, so that more initiatives have been targeting and mentoring women in the fields of math and science to compensate.

Could this be a similar situation, I wonder?

This discussion doesn't answer all the questions you posed, but I think it's a good jumping-off point.

 

[whitehall]

Go back to school emily. Bias means prejudice. The point you are trying to make is related to alleged gender bias towards women not men.

 

[emilynghiem]

Go back to school emily. Bias means prejudice. The point you are trying to make is related to alleged gender bias towards women not men.

Hi Whitehall:
Which instance are you referring to?

Many people have been able to understand the point of this thread,
and have replied quite intelligently with researched citations. I'm surprised none of
these people pointed out such an error if it is was that blatant!

The way I normally use the word bias:
a. when referring to "bias" in experiments, studies or laws, that favor a certain
factor, outcome or influence.
b. when referring to a "bias" in general, without stating which one, such as
admitting that all people have personal "biases"

"Definition of BIAS
....
3 a: bent, tendency b: an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially: a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice c: an instance of such prejudice d (1): deviation of the expected value of a statistical estimate from the quantity it estimates (2): systematic error introduced into sampling or testing by selecting or encouraging one outcome or answer over others"

Can you please explain what you are objecting to specifically as incorrect?