Gender bias: Spiritual or Economic cause?

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by emilynghiem, Jun 28, 2011.

?

What caused gender bias toward male dominance

Poll closed Jul 13, 2011.
  1. spiritual cause or religious teachings

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. economic due to men hunting meat

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. agricultural revolution

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
  4. physiological strength and size

    6 vote(s)
    66.7%
  5. what there is no bias

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist Supporting Member

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    What do you believe caused the current gender bias we see today
    in terms of male dominance in patriarchal society:

    A. spiritual causes or teachings
    B. economic - due to men valued more as hunters of meat
    (over women and workers gathering or harvesting the fields)
    C. agricultural revolution (where people started to store
    and guard more shares, and thus defend their wealth)
    D. physiological - men are bigger/stronger than women
    E. disagree, do not believe in a predominant gender imbalance or bias
     
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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  2. Wingsofwind
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    Wingsofwind Active Member

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    I chose 'A', not because Religion teaches that men are over the women, but because people tend to twist scripture to try and justify the way they treat others.

    Scripture teaches that the man IS over the woman, however, it also teaches that the man is to 'LOVE' the woman and treat her with kindness and respect. This is not how many men are though. Many fallow the 'men are over the women', but do not fallow the fact that they are to be kind to the women also.

    However, I do think that it is also a bit of all 'A'-'D' in some cases.
     
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  3. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    Depends on what society we're talking about, doesn't it?
     
  4. tonystewart1
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    tonystewart1 VIP Member

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    I voted D because for most of our history the superiour physical strength of men has given rise to a bias toward men.
     
  5. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist Supporting Member

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    Dear WOW: I think that is a very fair statement. I'm beginning to think that the socio-economic and physical reality shaped this trend from many factors combined, and either the religious/spiritual teaching enforced it or was justified even more, so they fuel each other. Locally some people focus on the childbearing and rearing role of the woman and how the need for protection increased. Which came first the chicken or the egg, did the reality shape the perception or did the perception shape the reality, or both? I believe these mesh so much you cannot tell, and the cause/effect co-influence each other.

    Thanks for your insights.
    I agree it ends up being some combination,
    but still find it interesting which factors people focus on more,
    which explains why they approach relations from different angles.
    Yours truly,
    Emily

    P.S. RE: husband and wife submitting one to another
    Yes I also agree the point of Jesus sacrifice and his fulfillment of the message in the Bible is to submit one to another as equals, where there is no division between gender, tribe, race, religion, etc. We are all equal children of God on the spiritual level, though we differ in class and role on the physical level. Ideally the people together are one body as the "Bride" of Christ/Lord/Laws that are universal to all humanity. (gentiles define these by natural laws while the churched tribes follow divine laws, but both are universal and fulfilled in Christ Jesus though they remain distinct paths leading to the same source of truth). The key is forgiveness instead of competing to trump or discredit another group,
    but recognizing all people have equal strengths and weaknesses, and we mutually
    check and balance each other to bring out the best and correct or prevent the bad.
    I see it like an orchestra, where there are different sections that don't play in the same key or the same parts, but when all are in harmony the symphony is perfect or whole.
    Instead of blasting each other out, or playing out of tune, we are supposed to each play our parts in balance with the others, and then it works out though they are all different.
     
  6. Anachronism
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    Anachronism BANNED

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    All four "A-D" are legitimate reasons for Male Dominance and Patriarchal Society being the accepted norm in human society.
     
  7. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist Supporting Member

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    Hi Ed: You remind me of a classmate of mine in college who won a fellowship to study feminism in Iceland, because in their history the population was so accustomed to women political leaders, it was considered amusing for men to hold office, or something like that.

    In my art history classes, one professor taught a whole class on how artifacts showed the trend in civilizations from female goddess/matriarchal worship in prehistoric times to the current trend of patriarchal figures and institutions. He showed examples of how the Egyptian culture depicted the woman on top, as the Sky Goddess being fertilized by the male with an erection from below, because of the water source coming from irrigation from the ground -- while other cultures predominantly depicted Heaven or the Sky as male and the earth as female because the rain came down from above to fertilize the crops.

    The reason I listed "agricultural revolution" (separately from the theory about meat changing the economy to favor men, the hunters and the upper class that could store more meat) is that someone debated this point, insisting that more research has shown that this factor had more direct and demonstratable impact than religion, and affected regions and cultures that were not under that influence.

    However I do believe that spiritual influences can affect people and generations unconsciously. I personally believe there is some karma involved in the violent transition from matriarchal to patriarchal structures and dominance, that included genocide and abuse/oppression of women and women's knowledge of spirituality repressed from the past. Even if people did not have that knowledge consciously, I believe it is still a factor.

    These other socio-economic influences, I believe follow that spiritual trend, and then become the driving force we see. The common factor being that knowledge is power, and where the matriarchal cultures had power based on spiritual strength, then the patriarchal cultures based on physical/economic/political strength over masses with less resources,
    then we will reach a balance when we all share equal knowledge on both the spiritual level as well as the physical/economic/political level. Even if we remain in different classes, we don't have to abuse that knowledge to exploit power over those with less.

    So fascinating to me how people will frame this issue differently if they focus on the spiritual level or the physical level.

    Thank you for your posts, and the realistic check on idealism that you provide.
    I will reply to your other one with questions that I forwarded
    to friends on another site to try to answer.

    I find both the spiritual angle and the totally secular angle
    are both necessary complements to put the bigger picture
    together, where abstract thought even on a symbolic level
    and concrete action in the real world meet in agreement.

    I look forward to sharing more with you
    from your perspective and sharp focus!

    Thanks, Ed
    Yours truly,
    Emily
     
  8. emilynghiem
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    emilynghiem Constitutionalist Supporting Member

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    Hi TS1: Someone else threw in the comment that women in childbearing and rearing roles more specifically shaped this trend toward needing protection of the men, citing that as the craniums of newborns grew with larger brains, then this left women more incapacitated. Very interesting take, I guess, on the Eve story, perhaps: where because of greater knowledge, this increased the women's pain in labor? Never thought of that!

    However, if you compare the egalitarian and matriarchal cultures in prehistoric times before patriarchal lineages, the argument is that when women passed property down the female side of the family, the mothers KNEW who their children were, and did not need to defend their assets/property from other women the way men need to with the system of primogeniture. The laws created to control women and children as "assets of the estate" became necessary for a man to make sure his children were HIS, and thus the laws against adultery written by men for men. So that is where I personally trace some of this control issue trend between men and women in relationships, that collective influences church and state and whole institutions.

    But when I pose this question online, I get more the opposite views!
    People see the trend on the outside, of men dominating women, and then say that this influences the biases in people and within personal relationships by example. I thought it was the other way, where people take their internal or unconscious spiritual programming and then project that outward into relationships and then greater society!

    Now I can only surmise that it must be both ways, working at once. There is a mix of internal/spiritual influence from within, and also external influence from institutions and cultures. So you can no longer say it started with one thing more than the other!

    So fascinating!

    I get different answers every time I ask this question to different people.

    Thank you for participating in the poll and adding your comments.
    I also find it interesting that as people consider why the other views come at it from that angle, that might increase awareness of how these differences affect us on ALL levels
    both spiritually on one level and also physically in our economies and personal relations.

    Even when we communicate online, there are tendencies in some people to team up along gender lines or spiritual vs. secular lines, so that we can either keep reinforcing the same lines or we can make efforts to cross over and understand views coming from opposites.

    I hope these dialogues encourage more exploration on all sides.
    I believe the right answers will come from combining information from all sources,
    checking sources and points against each other, and deriving new understanding
    where the assimilated whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts we contribute.

    Thanks for adding to the mix!

    Yours truly,
    Emily
     
  9. midcan5
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    midcan5 liberal / progressive

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    That is an interesting question, there is only one Matriarchal society in the world, the Mosuo. I have to think about it a bit before I give my two cents.

    [ ????? ]

    Long ago I read that a woman is always half in love with a man who listens to her. Half ? Every time I touch my wife in any way she says, what do you want now? I've watched my granddaughters and grandson now, and actually see little difference, but there is difference.

    "...In his classic study of mid 19th century American labor, Norman Ware observes that the imposition of industrial capitalism and its values 'was repugnant to an astonishingly large section of the earlier American community'. The primary reason was 'the decline of the industrial worker as a person', the 'degradation' and 'psychological change' that followed from the 'loss of dignity and independence' and of democratic rights and freedoms. These reactions were vividly expressed in the working class literature, often by women, who played a prominent role despite their subordination in the general society." Introduction Alex Carey 'Taking The Risk Out Of Democracy'

    Can you imagine asking a man this question? "The American company Unilever asked 1000 women how long they would give up sex, in exchange for a wardrobe full of new clothes? The majority said 15 months."

    "In 1958 The Mississippi state legislature categorized voyeurism as an exclusively male crime, thereby exempting women from prosecution as Peeping Toms, A Peeping Tom, the lawmakers decreed, was "any male person who enters upon real property. . . and thereafter pries or peeps through a window. . . for the lewd, licentious, and indecent purpose of spying upon the occupants thereof."
     
  10. Marie888
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    Marie888 † † †

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    I'm pretty much along the sames lines as what Wings said.


    .
     

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