Gay marriage and religious freedom: Why we're concerned

SGdsn

Member
Nov 15, 2009
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Let me explain this for people who think the fear religious people have that their religious freedoms will be infringed upon if gay marriage is legalized.

This fear is common when it comes to states who legalize gay marriage through the courts, like the situation with California and Prop 8. See, religious people don't believe that gay marriage is a right; no, they really don't. They're not just saying that because they're trying to contradict liberals...they honestly disagree with you. So when they see a court "find" (see: invent) the right to gay marriage, they believe that that judge or judges have effectively taken a side on this contentious cultural, political (see: non-judicial) issue, and they don't trust any legislature, governor, or judicial body who would oppose the will of the people to then protect the people's right to religious freedom.

I think that's part of the reason why the Yes on 8 side made people believe that their religious freedom would come under attack if Prop 8 passed. Because the people reasoned, "well shoot, if they're willing to overturn the votes of millions of people who voted for Prop 22, they're probably not that concerned about my religious freedoms, either." The right to vote is just as fundamental a right in a democracy as the supposed right to marry is, and you can't expect people to compromise one for the other.

And then, I'd also say, there's a way for people to get back at a church for not recognizing gay marriages without forcing them to do it: namely, their tax exempt status. See, this is actually contradictory to what they believe, but I think there are some in the gay community spiteful enough to use whatever argument they can get away with. The argument would go like this:

"Churches are religious institutions, and the constitution grants them them free exercise of their faith. But the constitution doesn't mandate that the state affirm that right by granting tax-exempt status on these institutions. There are plenty of stipulations churches must follow in order to maintain their tax-exempt status, and they can't not respect the laws the state duly passes. Since this state recognizes gay marriage, it should be unlawful for any institution that receives subsidies or a tax-exemption to behave in a way that is discriminatory and non-yielding to the laws. As a private entity, the church may exclude or include whomever they wish, but public institutions should not have the luxury to ignore the rights of minorities."

They could very easily make that argument and find people to accept it. Gay rights groups already tried that once when it came to the Boy Scouts not allowing scoutmasters to be gay. The Supreme Court found that the Boy Scouts have a right to associate with whomever they want, but that hasn't stopped them from challenging their tax-exempt status.

The point is, the gay marriage lobby is trying to tie "opposition to gay marriage" with "anti-gay discrimination" (since to them it's the same thing) and deal with it the same way. They want to punish everyone who opposes gay marriage in some way, and it doesn't matter if it's at the expense of people's other rights.

Like I said, they got Prop 22 overturned and that was enacted by the expressed will of the people. They tried to get Prop 8 overturned as a revision and not an amendment (a case you don't even hear about anymore), and then took it to federal court and the governor and AG didn't even defend it.

People see the legal jujitsu being used to legalize gay marriage at all costs. It should be no wonder why they don't trust these same people who are willing to undermine the votes of millions of people to respect their religious liberties.
 
...because it's really up to conservatives to do away with state-sponsored marriages... Liberals are all for doing away with them, but it's conservatives who want to keep them.

Yeah right.
 
The primary fear is that when you make it a violation of civil rights to refuse to marry people, whether it's because of their sexual orientation or anything else, then GOVERNMENT is dictating what the CHURCH must do.

Next will be making it illegal to preach certain views in the pulpit.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?
 
The primary fear is that when you make it a violation of civil rights to refuse to marry people, whether it's because of their sexual orientation or anything else, then GOVERNMENT is dictating what the CHURCH must do.

Next will be making it illegal to preach certain views in the pulpit.

Yours is a weak argument. There are (or will be) churches that will marry gay couples if and when gay marriage becomes legal in a particular state.

Support and affirmation of marriage rights for same-sex couples increasingly come from those who practice progressive Christianity. Some examples of religious organizations voicing their support for marriage equality include the Metropolitan Community Church, the United Church of Christ, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), the Episcopal Church of the United States, the Anglican Church of Canada, the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America and the Unitarian Universalists church which has long supported the rights of gays and lesbians to marry both in the church and through the state.

Religious views on same-sex marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If not, then the gay couple can go to a Justice of the Peace and get married outside of the church.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to gay people.

And the state has no business dictating to the churches what they will and won't do. That's one of the basic tenets of the Constitution. We can worship as we please, so long as we are not violating the rights of others in doing so. And nobody is convinced that gays have a right to be married in any church they so desire.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to gay people.

And the state has no business dictating to the churches what they will and won't do. That's one of the basic tenets of the Constitution. We can worship as we please, so long as we are not violating the rights of others in doing so. And nobody is convinced that gays have a right to be married in any church they so desire.

Of course it doesn't, neither did it provide Civil Rights for Blacks and Women, which brings me back to the "All men are created equal" part of the COTUS.

Shouldn't it be up to the church? Some churches would probably let Gay people marry, and how many people were for the Civil right's movement back int he 60's?

Civil rights triumph over Religion.

Hmm, The state has no business on what Churches do or don't do, so why not let the Church chose if they want to let Gay marriages happen in their church?
 
The primary fear is that when you make it a violation of civil rights to refuse to marry people, whether it's because of their sexual orientation or anything else, then GOVERNMENT is dictating what the CHURCH must do.

Next will be making it illegal to preach certain views in the pulpit.

Yours is a weak argument. There are (or will be) churches that will marry gay couples if and when gay marriage becomes legal in a particular state.

Support and affirmation of marriage rights for same-sex couples increasingly come from those who practice progressive Christianity. Some examples of religious organizations voicing their support for marriage equality include the Metropolitan Community Church, the United Church of Christ, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), the Episcopal Church of the United States, the Anglican Church of Canada, the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America and the Unitarian Universalists church which has long supported the rights of gays and lesbians to marry both in the church and through the state.

Religious views on same-sex marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If not, then the gay couple can go to a Justice of the Peace and get married outside of the church.

I thought that was my argument.

Their rights aren't being violated because there are clergy and organizations that will marry them now.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to gay people.

Does it provide the right for me to drink Coca Cola?
Does it provide the right for heterosexuals to get married?
Does it say anything about marriage?


And the state has no business dictating to the churches what they will and won't do. That's one of the basic tenets of the Constitution. We can worship as we please, so long as we are not violating the rights of others in doing so.

I agree - within limits. What if my religion calls for animal sacrifice?
What if my religion prohibits me from paying taxes?

And nobody is convinced that gays have a right to be married in any church they so desire.

I agree. When marriage becomes legal, it will be up to gay couples to find a church willing to marry them - or find a Justice of the Peace.
 
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The primary fear is that when you make it a violation of civil rights to refuse to marry people, whether it's because of their sexual orientation or anything else, then GOVERNMENT is dictating what the CHURCH must do.

Next will be making it illegal to preach certain views in the pulpit.

Yours is a weak argument. There are (or will be) churches that will marry gay couples if and when gay marriage becomes legal in a particular state.

Support and affirmation of marriage rights for same-sex couples increasingly come from those who practice progressive Christianity. Some examples of religious organizations voicing their support for marriage equality include the Metropolitan Community Church, the United Church of Christ, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), the Episcopal Church of the United States, the Anglican Church of Canada, the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America and the Unitarian Universalists church which has long supported the rights of gays and lesbians to marry both in the church and through the state.

Religious views on same-sex marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If not, then the gay couple can go to a Justice of the Peace and get married outside of the church.

I thought that was my argument.

Their rights aren't being violated because there are clergy and organizations that will marry them now.

Yes, just as soon as gay marriage becomes legal.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to gay people.

And the state has no business dictating to the churches what they will and won't do. That's one of the basic tenets of the Constitution. We can worship as we please, so long as we are not violating the rights of others in doing so. And nobody is convinced that gays have a right to be married in any church they so desire.

Of course it doesn't, neither did it provide Civil Rights for Blacks and Women, which brings me back to the "All men are created equal" part of the COTUS.

Shouldn't it be up to the church? Some churches would probably let Gay people marry, and how many people were for the Civil right's movement back int he 60's?

Civil rights triumph over Religion.

Hmm, The state has no business on what Churches do or don't do, so why not let the Church chose if they want to let Gay marriages happen in their church?

That's what I said already. The state doesn't stop churches from performing gay marriages now. The state just doesn't sign off on them. If it is determined that gay marriage is a matter of civil right, then churches will be open for prosecution for violation of civil rights when they refuse to marry gays. And that will open the door for government intrusion in religion at the most fundamental level.
 
Let me explain this for people who think the fear religious people have that their religious freedoms will be infringed upon if gay marriage is legalized.

This fear is common when it comes to states who legalize gay marriage through the courts, like the situation with California and Prop 8. See, religious people don't believe that gay marriage is a right; no, they really don't. They're not just saying that because they're trying to contradict liberals...they honestly disagree with you. So when they see a court "find" (see: invent) the right to gay marriage, they believe that that judge or judges have effectively taken a side on this contentious cultural, political (see: non-judicial) issue, and they don't trust any legislature, governor, or judicial body who would oppose the will of the people to then protect the people's right to religious freedom.

I think that's part of the reason why the Yes on 8 side made people believe that their religious freedom would come under attack if Prop 8 passed. Because the people reasoned, "well shoot, if they're willing to overturn the votes of millions of people who voted for Prop 22, they're probably not that concerned about my religious freedoms, either." The right to vote is just as fundamental a right in a democracy as the supposed right to marry is, and you can't expect people to compromise one for the other.

And then, I'd also say, there's a way for people to get back at a church for not recognizing gay marriages without forcing them to do it: namely, their tax exempt status. See, this is actually contradictory to what they believe, but I think there are some in the gay community spiteful enough to use whatever argument they can get away with. The argument would go like this:

"Churches are religious institutions, and the constitution grants them them free exercise of their faith. But the constitution doesn't mandate that the state affirm that right by granting tax-exempt status on these institutions. There are plenty of stipulations churches must follow in order to maintain their tax-exempt status, and they can't not respect the laws the state duly passes. Since this state recognizes gay marriage, it should be unlawful for any institution that receives subsidies or a tax-exemption to behave in a way that is discriminatory and non-yielding to the laws. As a private entity, the church may exclude or include whomever they wish, but public institutions should not have the luxury to ignore the rights of minorities."

They could very easily make that argument and find people to accept it. Gay rights groups already tried that once when it came to the Boy Scouts not allowing scoutmasters to be gay. The Supreme Court found that the Boy Scouts have a right to associate with whomever they want, but that hasn't stopped them from challenging their tax-exempt status.

The point is, the gay marriage lobby is trying to tie "opposition to gay marriage" with "anti-gay discrimination" (since to them it's the same thing) and deal with it the same way. They want to punish everyone who opposes gay marriage in some way, and it doesn't matter if it's at the expense of people's other rights.

Like I said, they got Prop 22 overturned and that was enacted by the expressed will of the people. They tried to get Prop 8 overturned as a revision and not an amendment (a case you don't even hear about anymore), and then took it to federal court and the governor and AG didn't even defend it.

People see the legal jujitsu being used to legalize gay marriage at all costs. It should be no wonder why they don't trust these same people who are willing to undermine the votes of millions of people to respect their religious liberties.

You're right about the state forcing churches to marry people against the church's will....look how they are forcing churches to marry interracial couples, interfaith couples, and couples not of their faith. It's pretty horrible.
 
The primary fear is that when you make it a violation of civil rights to refuse to marry people, whether it's because of their sexual orientation or anything else, then GOVERNMENT is dictating what the CHURCH must do.

Next will be making it illegal to preach certain views in the pulpit.

After all...the government is making it a violation of civil rights for churches to refuse to marry interracial couples, interfaith couples, and couples of other faiths.....as we speak.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to gay people.

And the state has no business dictating to the churches what they will and won't do. That's one of the basic tenets of the Constitution. We can worship as we please, so long as we are not violating the rights of others in doing so. And nobody is convinced that gays have a right to be married in any church they so desire.

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to straight people either.
 
Just another queer post... Nothing new discussed. Same old song and dance. Queer. Simply queer.
 
And the Government is dictating what the people should and shouldn't do, for example gay marriage.

What authority do you have to dictate who is and isn't allowed to marry?

Do you follow the constitution? Aren't all men created equal? Or just the people you want?

The Constitution doesn't provide the right of marriage to gay people.

And the state has no business dictating to the churches what they will and won't do. That's one of the basic tenets of the Constitution. We can worship as we please, so long as we are not violating the rights of others in doing so. And nobody is convinced that gays have a right to be married in any church they so desire.

I don't recall gays asking to be married in any church they choose. They want legal recognition of their marriages. Why would a gay person even consider getting married in a church that hates them? You're throwing a red-herring into the discussion.
 
The Constitution wasn't written to protect the "Rights" of criminals, pedophiles, rapists, homosexuals, and other perverts.

It was enacted to "Protect" the Rights of NORMAL law abiding citizens from excessive/tyrannical government.
 

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