Gasoline. Gouging?

[Mariner]

I agree that we can't escape gasoline dependence instantly. On the other hand, the technology already exists (hybrid engines) to halve our use of gasoline for transportation. Some tax breaks and gov't investment in improved technology, and we could be sipping rather than guzzling the stuff. If every consumer product had a sticker on it indicating the amount of oil that went into its manufacture, I predict people would rapidly make choices that would vastly cut our use of oil. The geopolitical and environmental consequences of oil use are simply too crystal clear at this point.

The real problem is a nostalgic view that we have a "right" to practically free gasoline. It's fueled the development of sprawling suburbs and strip malls, endless places that can be accessed only by car, not even by bicycle or on foot.

Imagine if new subdivisions and shopping centers provided full access for foot and bicycle traffic--sidewalks, safe crossings, and video-monitored bicycle parking. Vast numbers of people would be willing to bike to work and the store if it were simply possible. And at 912 miles per gallon of Ben and Jerry's, there's no more efficient way to get around than the bicycle.

Other simple changes resisted by the Bush administration include going to low sulfur diesel faster, cleaning up the smokestacks of electricity companies, mandating cleaner standards for lawn mowers and marine engines, which produce outsized pollution for their size compared with cars (~100 times as much pollution per gallon).

Mariner

PS I put my money where my mouth is. My rarely used car runs on biodiesel, and I bike or skateboard to work, the gym, and much of my shopping. I'm also vegetarian, and eat locally grown foods when I can, which further decreases my oil personal oil dependence (beef requires unbelievable amounts of oil and water--even fishing requires vast oil, some fishing boats leaving the dock heavier with diesel than they return laden with fish). And we reinsulated our old house to minimize energy use for heating and cooling. Just because the world "is" a certain way doesn't mean it "should" be that way, and I believe too many Americans have bought the commercially inspired vision that we have a "right" to a mini-English estate in the suburbs with a sparkling chemically sterilized lawn and a giant SUV in the garage. It's not sustainable--and we should face that fact sooner rather than later, for our own good. But that doesn't mean we have to sacrifice hugely. An organic lawn might have a couple of weeds, but a hybrid car has no less power than a conventional one--sometimes more.

 

[CSM]

I agree that we can't escape gasoline dependence instantly. On the other hand, the technology already exists (hybrid engines) to halve our use of gasoline for transportation. Some tax breaks and gov't investment in improved technology, and we could be sipping rather than guzzling the stuff. If every consumer product had a sticker on it indicating the amount of oil that went into its manufacture, I predict people would rapidly make choices that would vastly cut our use of oil. The geopolitical and environmental consequences of oil use are simply too crystal clear at this point.

The real problem is a nostalgic view that we have a "right" to practically free gasoline. It's fueled the development of sprawling suburbs and strip malls, endless places that can be accessed only by car, not even by bicycle or on foot.

Imagine if new subdivisions and shopping centers provided full access for foot and bicycle traffic--sidewalks, safe crossings, and video-monitored bicycle parking. Vast numbers of people would be willing to bike to work and the store if it were simply possible. And at 912 miles per gallon of Ben and Jerry's, there's no more efficient way to get around than the bicycle.

Other simple changes resisted by the Bush administration include going to low sulfur diesel faster, cleaning up the smokestacks of electricity companies, mandating cleaner standards for lawn mowers and marine engines, which produce outsized pollution for their size compared with cars (~100 times as much pollution per gallon).

Mariner

PS I put my money where my mouth is. My rarely used car runs on biodiesel, and I bike or skateboard to work, the gym, and much of my shopping. I'm also vegetarian, and eat locally grown foods when I can, which further decreases my oil personal oil dependence (beef requires unbelievable amounts of oil and water--even fishing requires vast oil, some fishing boats leaving the dock heavier with diesel than they return laden with fish). And we reinsulated our old house to minimize energy use for heating and cooling. Just because the world "is" a certain way doesn't mean it "should" be that way, and I believe too many Americans have bought the commercially inspired vision that we have a "right" to a mini-English estate in the suburbs with a sparkling chemically sterilized lawn and a giant SUV in the garage. It's not sustainable--and we should face that fact sooner rather than later, for our own good. But that doesn't mean we have to sacrifice hugely. An organic lawn might have a couple of weeds, but a hybrid car has no less power than a conventional one--sometimes more.

Well, bicycles are great, if your job is close enough to bike to (mine is not). I suspect a bike ride to Home Depot for wallboard would be a mighty exciting adventure for some. Veggies are ok but not as sole sustenance. I am all for the energy efficient home.

As for the "right" to own the domicile you describe...why isn't it a right? Not everyone has to live like you, nor would I want them to. What is appropriate for you and your family is not necessarily appropriate for mine. If they can afford it (the mini-estate, etc) then bless their little pea-pickin hearts!!

Your vision is not necessarily the right one either...there has to be a happy medium...you know, the one where I can drive where ever I want when ever I want without fear of throwing the world into another conflict over oil, where I can live where I want without fear of causing some lib to have a heart attack, where I can eat what I want without fear for the life of some baby seal in the Artic.

 

[red states rule]

Well, it occurs every year about this time. As baseball is being played, people enjoy the wonderful spring weather and folks start to go on their vacations, the usual cast of characters run to the nearest open mike and start to bellow the DNC talking points.

What am I referring to?

Liberals wanting to investigate the oil companies for price gouging. My question is, why don't they, and the liberal media, do the same about tax gouging?

After all, oil companies' profit works out to nine cents a gallon. Taxes total more. On average 45 cents a gallon. In Pennsylvania, the state gas tax is 31.1 cents per gallon on top of the federal tax of 18.4 cents.

But you don't hear liberals whining about the taxes? After all, that's an easy source of revenue for a monotonous list of social programs whose failures are legendary. Better to keep funding them through taxes that are killing us than demanding accountability.

If liberals want to bring gas prices down, start offering solutions and stop playing games. Start opening areas for more oil exploration here, so we don't rely on oil from over there.

Start ending the costly insanity of blended fuel mandates that do nothing to clean our air but do tons to empty our wallets. Start removing the restrictions that prevent companies like Wal-Mart from selling gasoline below their cost as a loss leader. And start demanding the same accountability of our tax dollars that you do oil giants' dollars.

Over the past 25 years, oil companies directly paid or remitted more than $2.2 trillion in taxes, after adjusting for inflation, to federal and state governments -- including excise taxes, royalty payments and state and federal corporate income taxes. That amounts to more than three times what they earned in profits during the same period.

These figures do not include local property taxes, state sales and severance taxes and on-shore royalty payments.

Liberals do motorists no good, when they motor past the facts and only stop for an open microphone.

 

[Mariner]

about price-gouging. I believe an independent commission recently exonerated the oil companies of that, and I'm perfectly happy to believe it. Supply and demand will likely continue to drive up the price of oil, as China and India add their demands to a limited supply.

As for "Democratic talking points," well, many USMB members could be accused of simply following Bush's talking points--especially one or two years ago, before the real world gave him his comeuppance in the form of Katrina, the WVa mining disasters (both of which reminded everyone why government is important), Iraq, etc. At the time, almost no one was willing to criticize anything said by any Republican. Libertarian Republicans, who would reject eavesdropping as strongly as any liberal, were nowhere to be seen, etc. USMB's gotten a lot more interesting since people had to start forming their own opinions on issues--the Republican monolith is gone, forever I hope.

I'm criticizing our dependence on oil, not the companies that provide it to us.

Hobbit, of course people can drive what they want, eat what they want, and live as they want. My point was that with increased information about the actual impact of various choices, people might change their behavior considerably. Consider, for example, the fact that it take 5500 gallons of water to create one pound of beef, versus 25 gallons for a pound of lettuce. I think people want to live in harmony with the world, and feel good when they know they're treading more lightly. I make my own choices not out of masochism, but simply because they feel right to me, mentally and physically. When I need wallboard, I borrow my father-in-law's pickup truck, without guilt.

Mariner.

PS CORRECTION--above I said we use 13 million barrels of oil a day. In fact, we use 21 million. We import 13 million, which was the origin of my error. Sorry, and thanks to the person who pointed it out to me. The bill the Senate is working on would ask us to cut this use by 2.5 million barrels a day, similar to the decreases Carter achieved during the early 70's oil crisis. It's the first time since Bush took office that we've done anything to reduce our use of oil.

 

[red states rule]

There is no reason for us to have to change our entire economy to find something other then oil to fuel that economy
We have so much oil within our own country to fill our needs. However, the enviros block evey attempt to drill for new oil, and build new and/or expand refineries.
Of course we cannot build new nuclear plants. We can't expand the use of coal.
Oh yes, now I know what the greens want. In a local paper, on the front pagem they did a story about the electric car
They profiled one with a top speed of - wow - 30 mph.
It can go - gasp - 15 miles before a recharge
I am not making this up - it was on the front page
I do believe the bulb is a bit dim for these people

 

[Mariner]

the fact that it's not only "enviros" who are against increased drilling in the U.S. The president's very own totally-Republican brother opposes increased drilling in his state, Florida. The majority of Americans oppose opening the ANWR to drilling. Two words say it all: Exxon Valdez.

In the long history of civilization, oil's reign will be just a century or two. Why shouldn't we move to make its run as our major energy source shorter rather than longer? Imagine how different the world would look politically if, for example, Iran weren't earning hundreds of millions of dollars in oil revenue, and if Saudi princes lived in tents still, not palaces? The oil economy works against us--every time we fill up, we finance the other side of the war on terror.

As we spread our middle-class dream to the world, we have to recognize that, as E.O. Wilson calculates it, if everyone on earth wanted a middle class American's standard of living, it would require 4 earths to support it. That's why each of our footprints needs to be reduced. This does not have to mean living with less--just using our resources more intelligently.

Mariner.

 

[red states rule]

If we start obtaining all the oil we have within the US, we would not be sending our money to the Middle East.
I love it when libs start lecturing us on how we should be living our lives. Perhaps you should talk to Sen Kennedy and Sen Kerry
It seem some greens wanted to build a wind farm off the coast of Mass
Problem - it was visible from the Kennedy and Kerry beach front homes. They put a stop to the wind farm
It seems their view of the ocean was more important then alternate sources of energy

 

[Mariner]

I couldn't agree with you more about the wind farm. It was an excellent proposal, and was squashed by local politics (not just Kennedy et al, but a lot of other wealthy beachfront owners).

You're ignoring my point: the majority of Americans, which includes many Republicans, oppose further drilling in the U.S., so it's not goint to happen.

And getting more of our oil here does not take care of the global warming problem or the 4-earth problem.

Today's Times reports that Asian companies just passed a milestone: 40% of the U.S. market. Why? Because of increased sales of fuel-efficient cars. Toyota, which made wise investments in hybrid engines and fuel efficiency, is now worth over 10 times as much as G.M., which took a short-term strategy of building as many SUV's, pickups, and muscle cars as it could. Dumb.

The politicians are catching up to the reality. Paulson, Bush's new and excellent choice for Treasury, is a rabid environmentalist (Chairman of The Nature Conservancy) and also disagrees totally with Bush on running massive structural budget deficits. 6 years too late, the Bush team might start to show some sense on these two giant issues.

Mariner.

 

[red states rule]

I couldn't agree with you more about the wind farm. It was an excellent proposal, and was squashed by local politics (not just Kennedy et al, but a lot of other wealthy beachfront owners).

You're ignoring my point: the majority of Americans, which includes many Republicans, oppose further drilling in the U.S., so it's not goint to happen.

And getting more of our oil here does not take care of the global warming problem or the 4-earth problem.

Today's Times reports that Asian companies just passed a milestone: 40% of the U.S. market. Why? Because of increased sales of fuel-efficient cars. Toyota, which made wise investments in hybrid engines and fuel efficiency, is now worth over 10 times as much as G.M., which took a short-term strategy of building as many SUV's, pickups, and muscle cars as it could. Dumb.

The politicians are catching up to the reality. Paulson, Bush's new and excellent choice for Treasury, is a rabid environmentalist (Chairman of The Nature Conservancy) and also disagrees totally with Bush on running massive structural budget deficits. 6 years too late, the Bush team might start to show some sense on these two giant issues.

Mariner.

You mean RINOS oppose oil drilling within America. McCain, Snow, Collins, and others are far from conservatives. They are more interested what the NY Times and Washington Post write about them.
The only way to lower prices is to increase supply
Despite what the liberal media is reporting, gas prices where I live FELL over the holiday weekend. They are down 40 cents per gallon from there high.
Toyota may have increased their market share because of the quality of their care. US automakers have been putting out alot of crap for years. I drive a Toyota Echo due to my long drive to work and because of the quality.
What global warming? Please do not start that liberal crap. Al Bores movie is sinking faster then the Titantic.
Paulson is in the Treasury dept. He will have little to say about oil exploration and production

 

[red states rule]

Here is a list of state gas taxes. How much are you paying in taxes?
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

Alabama 18 19 Includes 2-cpg inspection fee. Counties can levy up to 5 cpg with approval of the state legislature. Cities and counties can levy additional tax—rates range from .5 cents per gallon to 4 cents per gallon. An additional 1 cpg UST/AST Trust Fund Environmental Transport Fee is levied at the wholesale level to cover remediation costs.
Alaska 8 8 There is a .06 per gallon tax credit for gasohol used during a mandated control period in a CO non-attainment area. The motor fuel tax rate for marine use is 5 cents/gallon; aviation gas is 4.7 cents/gallon; and jet fuel is 3.2 cents/gallon.
Arizona 18 18 Plus 1 cpg UST tax. Use class vehicles pay an additional 9 cpg on diesel (with an exemption for vehicles under 26,000 gw).
Arkansas 21.5 22.5 Plus .2-cpg environmental assurance fee assessed at the wholesale level for underground storage tank fund.
California 18 18 Other taxes include a 6% state sales tax and 1.25% county, plus additional local sales taxes and 1.2 cents per gallon state UST fee.
Colorado 22 20.5 --
Connecticut 25 26 Plus 5% gross earnings tax collected at wholesale.
Delaware 23 22 --
Dist. of Columbia 20 20 --
Florida 14.5 27.2 The statewide excise tax is 14.5 cents per gallon for gasoline and 27.2 cpg for diesel. The 14.5 cents represents 10.5 cpg sales tax plus 4 cpg excise tax. Gasoline tax rate increased .2 cpg on 1/1/05. Tax rate changes annually based on CPI. Does not include 2.2-cpg tax/fee for environmental inspection purposes (5 cents per barrel tax for the Water Quality Assurance Trust Fund, 80 cents per barrel for the Inland Protection Trust Fund, 2 cents per barrel for the Coastal Protection Trust Fund and 1/8 cents per gallon for weights and measures inspection fee). Gasoline rate also does not include additional minimum 9.9 to 17.8 cent per gallon local option tax portion with the weighted average of 14.6 cents per gallon. Therefore, depending on where you live in Florida, your overall gasoline tax can vary from an average of 52.9 cents per gallon to 45 cents per gallon.
Georgia 7.5 7.5 Plus 4% sales tax.
Hawaii 16 16 Plus 4% sales tax and additional county taxes and 0.12-cpg environmental response tax.
Idaho 25 25 --
Illinois 19 21.5 Plus 6.25% sales tax and .3 % tax for underground storage tank fund, and other local sales and gasoline taxes. Diesel fuel taxes are 27.5 cpg for commercial highway users.
Indiana 18 16 Plus 6% sales tax and 0.008 per gallon inspection fee. For diesel, there is an 11-cpg surcharge paid on a quarterly self-reporting basis. Gasoline tax increased 3 cpg effective 1/1/03 per 2002
legislation.
Iowa 20 22.5 Plus 1 cpg UST fee. The gasoline tax for ethanol-blended gasoline is 19 cpg. Tax on gasoline is based on the amount of ethanol sold in the state. Ethanol sales review for 2004 will be complete 6/30/05 and the gasoline tax may be increased.
Kansas 24 26 Plus 1 cpg environmental fee. Gasoline tax increased 1 cents per gallon 7/1/03.
Kentucky 15 12 Variable based on 9% of the average wholesale price of gasoline with minimum price of $1.11 or 10 cpg. In addition, there is a supplemental highway user tax of 5 cpg for gasoline and 2 cpg for special fuels plus a 1.4-cpg underground storage tank fee. Commercial carriers pay surtax via a quarterly report of 2.2 cpg on gasoline and 5.2 cpg on special fuels.
Louisiana 20 20 --
Maine 25.2 26.3 Plus for gasoline: .07 cpg for Coastal and Inland Water fund, 1.38 cpg for Groundwater Fund and 40 cpg/10,000 gallons for Petroleum Market Share Act Plus for diesel: .07 cpg for Coastal and Inland Water Fund and .6 cpg for Groundwater Fund. Governor signed legislation in 2002 to index gasoline tax beginning 7/03. Tax increased .6 cpg 7/1/04.
Maryland 23.5 24.25 --
Massachusetts 23.5 23.5 Includes 2.5 cpg UST fund tax. UST tax increased from .5 cpg on 4/1/03.
Michigan 19 15 Plus 6% sales tax and 0.875 cpg for environmental regulation fee for refined petroleum fund.
Minnesota 20 20 Plus periodic 2 cpg UST cleanup fee at wholesale level which fluctuates depending on the fund balance. UST (Petro-fund) fee reinstated 11/1/04 and will run through February 2005.
Mississippi 18 18 Plus 0.4 cpg Environmental Protection Fee. In Hancock, Harrison and Jackson counties there is an additional 3 cpg Seawall tax.
Missouri 17 17 Governor signed legislation in 2002 that included removal of the 2008 expiration date of the 6-cpg temporary gasoline tax increase adopted by voters in 1992.
Montana 27.75 28.5 Includes 0.75-cpg fee assessed at the pump to go toward the state cleanup fund.
Nebraska 25.4 25.4 Variable -- 12.5-cent base plus 12.9 cpg variable rate. Does not include 0.9-cpg release prevention fee for gasoline and 0.3-cpg release prevention fee for diesel and other fuels. Variable rate increased ..6 cents per gallon for the period from 1/1/05 to 6/30/05.
Nevada 23 27 Plus up to 10-cpg county tax on gasoline, 0.75-cpg-cleanup fee, and .055 cpg inspection fee.
New Hampshire 18 18 Plus 0.1 cpg for oil pollution control fund, 1.5 cpg for UST cleanup fund, 1 cpg for AST and bulk storage fund. Also 2 cpg for fuel oil and bulk fuel oil storage.
New Jersey 14.5 17.5 Includes 10.5-cpg excise tax plus 4 cpg Petroleum Products Gross Receipts Tax.
New Mexico 17 18 Plus 1 cpg loading fee.
New York 31.9 28.9 Includes 8 cents per gallon excise tax, Petroleum Business Tax of 15.2 cents per gallon for gasoline and 13.45 cents per gallon for diesel (rate increased .6 cpg 1/1/05). Statewide volume weighted average sales tax increased 6/1/04 to 8.3 for per gallon for gasoline and 7.1 cents per gallon for diesel. Also a spill tax of 0.3 cent per gallon is collected on gasoline and diesel and a petroleum testing fee of 0.05 cent per gallon is levied on gasoline. Does not include an estimated 7.9 cents per gallon for gasoline and 6.7 cents per gallon for diesel from weighted county average sales taxes that range from 3.25% to 4.75%.
North Carolina 26.6 26.6 Plus 0.25-cpg inspection tax. Rate increased 2 cpg from 24.6 cents per gallon to 26.6 cents per gallon 1/1/05. It consists of a 17.5 cpg flat rate plus a variable rate of 9.1 cpg wholesale component based on 7% average wholesale price component based on prices from 4/1/04 to 9/30/04 (the average price for that period was 130.34 cents per gallon).
North Dakota 21 21 --
Ohio 26 26 Per 2003 legislation, rate increases 6 cpg in 2-year increments. First increase took effect 6/30/03. 7/1/04 rate increased another 2 cents per gallon (to 26 cents per gallon). Surcharge of 3 cpg for commercial vehicles.
Oklahoma 16 13 Plus 1 cpg per gallon UST fee.
Oregon 24 24 --
Pennsylvania 31.1 35.1 Plus 1.1 cpg fee on gasoline going into USTs (rate increased 1/1/04 from 1 cpg to 1.1 cpg). Includes 18 cent per gallon oil company franchise tax on liquid fuels (primarily gasoline) and 23 cents per gallon oil company franchise tax on fuels (primarily diesel) and a 12 cents per gallon tax liquid fuels tax rate. (Oil company franchise tax rate increased from 14.2 cents per gallon to 18 cents per gallon for gasoline and from 19.2 cents per gallon to 23 cents per gallon for diesel on 1/1/05.) Franchise tax based on the average wholesale price of gasoline during a 1-year period. For 2004 the average price was $1.17, up from 91.9 in 2003.
Rhode Island 30 30 Includes 3-cpg wholesale distributor tax. Does not include 1 cent per gallon environmental protection regulatory fee for UST program. Tax increased 2 cpg on 7/1/02.
South Carolina 16 16 Plus a 0.25 cpg inspection fee for inspection program and 0.50-cpg environmental fee for UST cleanup. Assessed on all petroleum products at the wholesale level.
South Dakota 22 22 Plus a 2-cpg throughput tax on distributors.
Tennessee 20 18 Plus 1-cent special petroleum tax for gasoline and .4 cpg environmental assurance fee.
Texas 20 20 --
Utah 24.5 24.5 --
Vermont 17.5 26 Rate includes 1 cpg license fee for UST fund.
Virginia 17.5 16 Plus 0.6-cpg petroleum storage tank fee and 2% sales tax on motor fuels in localities that are part of the Northern Virginia Transportation District.
Washington 28 28 Per legislation passed in 2003, rate increased 5 cpg effective 7/1/03.
West Virginia 20.5 20.5 Plus a 5% variable wholesale tax, presently 6.5 cpg, based on statewide average wholesale price of gasoline with a minimum price of $1.30 per gallon. Variable wholesale tax increased 1/1/05 from 4.85 cpg to 6.5 cpg.
Wisconsin 32.1 32.1 Variable -- adjusted annually on 4/1. Rate calculated by multiplying the current rate by an inflation factor (annual change in the consumer price index.) Includes 3-cpg oil inspection fee on gasoline and diesel. Gasoline and diesel tax increased 0.6 cpg on 4/1/04.
Wyoming 14 14 Includes base rate of 13 cpg plus 1 cpg to the environmental cleanup costs.


The Federal Tax of 18.4 cents per gallon is collected in all states in addition to any state or local taxes on gasoline sales.

Gasoline taxes are levied in various ways in different states. Some states, such as Louisiana, levy a flat rate per gallon. Others charge a tax similar to a sales tax in that it applies to the monetary amount of the gasoline sold. Other states allow local communities to levy gasoline taxes in addition to any state taxes that might be levied.

 

[Mariner]

uber-Republican/conservative Grover Norquist, the man who despises taxes more than perhaps any other person in the U.S., has voiced support for increased gas taxes.

Bush's brother opposes local drilling. You left him out of your list.

As for global warming, you and many people here have been led down the garden path by an administration that edited out the reality of global warming from its official reports. There is no longer any scientific argument on the issue--global warming is real, and humans are in large part responsible. Bush himself stopped denying its reality two years ago. Look up the Sierra Club's publication of the actual edits by the Administration's chief censor, who was responsible for altering the combined reports of 13 gov't agencies on the subject over Bush's first term. Read what the reports actually said, before the versions that Bush and Fox fooled you with. Or read some actual science. A nice meta-study of nearly 1000 climate-related papers last year showed that exactly 0 questioned the reality of human-caused global overheating. Most were concerned with measuring the various aspects of that overheating as it occurs, which are almost uniformly happening faster than previously predicted--making Bush's clueless avoidance of the subject even more damaging.

Toyota's sales are up because its most fuel-efficient vehicles are leaving the showroom floors as fast as they arrive. GM's are down because its least fuel efficient vehicles are no longer selling (Hummers waaaay down, to the point that the original Hummer is no longer going to be marketed, Rams down 25%). Check out the Wall Street Journal (conservative) if you think this is just a liberal argument.

Mariner.

 

[red states rule]

Republicans are wrong when they oppose new drilling and building/expanding refieneries. The only way to lower prices is to increase supply

As far as global "warming" - it is crap. 20 years ago the greens and enviro wackos, were telling us about global cooling. When these "scientists" can tell me, accurately how much snow my area will get the next day - then I might consider what they say will happen in 20 years.

As far as smaller cars - I drive one since that is my choise. I believe the main factor with Toyota gaining sales in America is because the unions workers in Detroit have put our garbage for to long and lost their edge

 

[MtnBiker]

As for global warming, you and many people here have been led down the garden path by an administration that edited out the reality of global warming from its official reports. There is no longer any scientific argument on the issue--global warming is real, and humans are in large part responsible.

That just is not true!

 

[red states rule]

That just is not true!

No global warming is caused by Dick Cheneys weather machine. He sent the hurricane into New Orleans to kill liberal blacks

This is about as valid as your "facts"

 

[MtnBiker]

No, it was the Japanese mafia.

http://www.weatherwars.info/index.php?news_id=13&start=0&category_id=&parent_id=0&arcyear=2005&arcmonth=8

 

[red states rule]

Maybe Michael Moore with a really bad case of gas after eating Mexican?

 

[Mariner]

Go read the actual reports that were submitted by gov't scientists (who are both conservative and liberal) to the White House, and read how Phillip Cooney, or whatever the guy's name was, edited them. Then see how Bush trumpeted the uncertainty of global warming based on Cooney's censorship, and how Fox trumpeted his trumpeting. Cooney came from the oil industry, and after his censorship was uncovered, he left the White House in shame and returned to the oil industry.

Aren't you just the least bit skeptical of the objectivity of an administration all of whose top members are lifelong members of the oil industry? The have the maximum vested interest in questioning the science on global warming. But even they've given up--you guys are way behind the times--it's been two years since Bush has dissed global warming.

In any case, businesses and local governments are way ahead. California wine producers and New Hampshire ski resorts have a lot to lose as global overheating proceeds. The entire Northeast is banding together to reduce stack emissions. Even GE, which made every striped bass on the Hudson River inedible via its PCB dumping, has jumped on the "green" bandwagon.

The proper analogy is not with predicting the next day's weather. It's with predicting whether this winter is likely to be colder than this summer. In other words, it's long-term trends, not day-to-day fluctuations that count.

Stop listening to the politicians and read some actual science. There have been several excellent books out recently documenting the massive evidence that has convinced essentially all of the world's climate scientists that this is real. Check out Elizabeth Kolbert's--it's very well-written and clear. Why would you believe a bunch of oilmen and women over the actual scientists? Condi Rice has an oil tanker named after her, for God's sake!

Mariner.

 

[red states rule]

So ignore how they screw up 24 hour weather forecasts but freak out what they say will happen in 25 years?

The worlds economy runs on oil and there is plenty of oil within our own boarders. The enviro wackos, liberal judges, and pinhead politicans block progress.

Of course the libs have a motive for keeping gas prices, demand for gas, and the taxes that go along with it as high as possible

Oil companies' profit works out to 9 cents per gallon. Taxes total, on average, 45 cents a gallon.

But you don't hear liberals whining about the taxes. After all, that's an easy source of revenue for a monotonous list of social programs whose failures are legendary. Better to keep funding them through taxes that are killing us, than demanding accountability due to all of us.

 

[MtnBiker]

Why would you believe a bunch of oilmen and women over the actual scientists?

Here is a petition of over 17,000 scientists that would disagree with you about global warming.

http://www.oism.org/oism/s32p31.htm

http://www.sitewave.net/pproject/listbystate.htm