Gas powered Solar Energy

[mdn2000]

In the latest scam involving Solar Power a dark secret is found. Solar Plants will be powered with Natural gas.

Imagine, we get to pay more money for Green Energy but the dark secret is that energy will be coming from Natural Gas.

What will prevent these large solar projects from simply providing all their energy from cheaper natural gas.

Either way, Solar is going to produce more green house gas than nuclear or even a natural gas powered plant, Solar is now Natural Gas powered.

Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System 07-AFC-05

Each plant also includes a partial-load natural gas-fired steam boiler, which would be used for thermal input to the turbine during the morning start-up cycle to assist the plant in coming up to operating temperature more quickly. The boiler would also be operated during transient cloudy conditions, in order to maintain the turbine on-line and ready to resume production from solar thermal input, after the clouds pass. After the clouds pass and solar thermal input resumes, the turbine would be returned to full solar production

 

[mdn2000]

Call me a wingnut, go figure, I could not make this stuff up if I wanted to.

It would be nice to know how much of our electricity from Solar is actually going to come from natural gas. This project looks like it may be insignificant, but who knows, money and profit is a powerful force, not to mention everyone will want these projects to look good on the books. That is the governement will pressure these Solar Companies to "Succeed", the more profit they make in the subsidized electrical market of California, the better. Good things there will be feed in tariffs charged to us customers as well.

So this project has two natural gas boilers to provide back up, you cannot have an Energy Contract with the local utility if you can not produce energy thus we see Natural Gas boilers designed into Solar power plants. All the CO2 of lets say, a Natural Gas fired plant, plus the added benifit of destroying miles and miles of protected desert.

Even the natural gas pipeline is going to have a diesel pump.

Solar energy is useless, I bet you that the water the Solar plant uses will be pumped in with diesel powered pumps.

Beacon Solar Energy Project

California Energy Commission - 22 Oct 09
]Department of Physics
Stanford University, Stanford, CA

Beacon Solar, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company is proposing to construct, own and operate the Beacon Solar Energy Project. The project is a concentrated solar electric generating facility proposed on an approximately 2,012-acre site in Kern County, California. The project will use well-established parabolic trough solar thermal technology to produce electrical power using a steam turbine generator (STG) fed from a solar steam generator (SSG). The SSG receives heated heat transfer fluid (HTF) from solar thermal equipment comprised of arrays of parabolic mirrors that collect energy from the sun.

The project will have a nominal electrical output of 250 megawatts (MW) and commercial operation is planned to commence by the third quarter of 2011,

The project will utilize two auxiliary boilers fueled by natural gas to reduce startup time and for HTF freeze protection. The auxiliary boilers will supply steam to the HTF freeze protection heat exchangers during nighttime hours to keep the HTF in a liquid state when ambient temperatures are not sufficient to keep the temperature of the HTF above its relatively high freezing point (54 degrees Fahrenheit). In order to fuel the boilers, a new 17.6-mile, eight-inch gas pipeline will be constructed to connect The project to an existing Southern California Gas Company (SCG) pipeline in the California City area. The project will also have a dieselfueled firewater pump for fire protection.

Solar Millennium Blythe Solar Power Project

 

[iamwhatiseem]

This is old news, but it's irony has not been lost.

 

[Old Rocks]

Irony? The use of supplementary power, from whatever source, to even out the power is a reasonable proposition.

Now calling you a wingnut, MDN, is an insult to wingnuts. Most are not as technically stupid as you are.

 

[mdn2000]

This is old news, but it's irony has not been lost.

I had not seen this before, talk about being slow.

How can we honestly call one of these plants Solar when their ability to produce electricity from Natural gas is a 1,000:1

 

[sujiro]

Just the tiny fraction of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth (around a hundredth of a millionth of a percent) is enough to meet all our power needs many times over.In fact, every minute, enough energy arrives at the Earth to meet our demands for a whole year - if only we could harness it properly..

 

[editec]

How much energy is used priming the pump compared to the amount of energy that the solar plants actually produces?

Do you know?

If not them are you truly qualified to have an opinion?

 

[Cimerian]

Just the tiny fraction of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth (around a hundredth of a millionth of a percent) is enough to meet all our power needs many times over.In fact, every minute, enough energy arrives at the Earth to meet our demands for a whole year - if only we could harness it properly..

And if only that were true.

 

[westwall]

Just the tiny fraction of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth (around a hundredth of a millionth of a percent) is enough to meet all our power needs many times over.In fact, every minute, enough energy arrives at the Earth to meet our demands for a whole year - if only we could harness it properly..

That is true, and amazingly enough according to the climate alarmists out there the sun has a minimal impact on the planets climate!

 

[martybegan]

How much energy is used priming the pump compared to the amount of energy that the solar plants actually produces?

Do you know?

If not them are you truly qualified to have an opinion?

This also allows the plant to keep working at night, allowing it to be considerd a base load provider (at probably a reduced wattage).

Natural gas plants are perferred as they are as close to "push-button start" as you can get, compared to coal/oil/nuclear.

I still would like to see a plant use the stored hydraulic energy approach, where they use a portion of the solar power to pump water to a higher elevation, and use the water flowing to a lower elevation during clouds/night.

 

[editec]

How much energy is used priming the pump compared to the amount of energy that the solar plants actually produces?

Do you know?

If not them are you truly qualified to have an opinion?

This also allows the plant to keep working at night, allowing it to be considerd a base load provider (at probably a reduced wattage).

Natural gas plants are perferred as they are as close to "push-button start" as you can get, compared to coal/oil/nuclear.

I still would like to see a plant use the stored hydraulic energy approach, where they use a portion of the solar power to pump water to a higher elevation, and use the water flowing to a lower elevation during clouds/night.

Actually I'm informed that some power companies already do that to some extent.

They store energy by pumping water to higher elevations during off peak hours and tap into it's potential energy using hydropower generation during high demand times of day.

Of course, an enormous amount of energy is lost in the storing process, but as it's energy that would have not been used (thus lost, anyway) it is one approach to storing excess energy until you need it.

The problem is, (and I suspect you know this) you still need to generate that excess energy before you can store it.

It takes a lot of solar or wind energy to push a gallon of water up in elevation so you can tap into that water's potential energy later.

STill it is one approach to regulating the flow of energy that we can use when we are tapping solar and wind energy that we do not currently need, for sure.

 

[martybegan]

How much energy is used priming the pump compared to the amount of energy that the solar plants actually produces?

Do you know?

If not them are you truly qualified to have an opinion?

This also allows the plant to keep working at night, allowing it to be considerd a base load provider (at probably a reduced wattage).

Natural gas plants are perferred as they are as close to "push-button start" as you can get, compared to coal/oil/nuclear.

I still would like to see a plant use the stored hydraulic energy approach, where they use a portion of the solar power to pump water to a higher elevation, and use the water flowing to a lower elevation during clouds/night.

Actually I'm informed that some power companies already do that to some extent.

They store energy by pumping water to higher elevations during off peak hours and tap into it's potential energy using hydropower generation during high demand times of day.

Of course, an enormous amount of energy is lost in the storing process, but as it's energy that would have not been used (thus lost, anyway) it is one approach to storing excess energy until you need it.

The problem is, (and I suspect you know this) you still need to generate that excess energy before you can store it.

It takes a lot of solar or wind energy to push a gallon of water up in elevation so you can tap into that water's potential energy later.

STill it is one approach to regulating the flow of energy that we can use when we are tapping solar and wind energy that we do not currently need, for sure.

Still better than having to take 100% of the plant's energy off the grid every time a cloud goes by, or the sun goes down.

What you do is account for the pumping needs in your design calculations, so even though you make, say a 500MW facility, you rate it at 450MW, the other 50 during peak output being used to pump the water up.

It isn't as inefficent as you think. Your losses are basically the pumps inefficency, the waste heat from the pumps, plus evaporation losses in potential if you use an open pit. You get back all the Delta Z potential, minus of course the efficency of the turbine, and friction losses.

 

[flacaltenn]

This is about Solar Thermal (done with smoke and mirrors literally) -- Not Solar PhotoVoltaic. And yes we expect that the solar part would be used to PEAK generate heat with some kind of "other" priming and back-up. Not a truely BAD idea really, but a little Rube Goldberg scientifically.

The GOOD part of solar thermal is that you can use liquids that RETAIN heat rather well. So that solar energy gained during the day is somewhat stored into at least the early evening.

But the REAL travesty is that the same thing happens with Solar PhotoVoltaic. In that, when you turn off a nat gas plant or dial down a boiler at a coal plant to take the CLEAN GREEN stuff onto the grid --- You are WASTING the heat left in the fossil fuel backup system. It takes TIME and energy to switch these sources on/off. So THAT cost and pollution needs to be added to the REAL WORLD calculations of solar and wind. Because those technologies are PEAKER systems that need a back-up..

mdn2000 is on the right track here. Looking at the DETAILS of how these over-rated "alternatives" fit into the big picture is a lot disheartening..

 

[flacaltenn]

Just the tiny fraction of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth (around a hundredth of a millionth of a percent) is enough to meet all our power needs many times over.In fact, every minute, enough energy arrives at the Earth to meet our demands for a whole year - if only we could harness it properly..

Ever heard the saying -- "if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass all day"?

 

[Steve Hanson]

From what I've seem of solar units they work really well and everyone I know who has one swears by them. Solar doesn't need supplemental energy to produce energy. Something is wrong with your information.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Irony? The use of supplementary power, from whatever source, to even out the power is a reasonable proposition.

Now calling you a wingnut, MDN, is an insult to wingnuts. Most are not as technically stupid as you are.

Would it be reasonable if they used a coal fired plant to supplement the solar power?

By the way, since solar is estimated to be available about 33% of the time, wouldn't it be more accurate to call this a natural gas power plant with supplementary solar?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Just the tiny fraction of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth (around a hundredth of a millionth of a percent) is enough to meet all our power needs many times over.In fact, every minute, enough energy arrives at the Earth to meet our demands for a whole year - if only we could harness it properly..

Quite true. If we covered every inch of the Earths land surface in solar panels we would never have to worry about power again.

 

[flacaltenn]

From what I've seem of solar units they work really well and everyone I know who has one swears by them. Solar doesn't need supplemental energy to produce energy. Something is wrong with your information.

This is different form of solar Steve. It's a field of mirrors in the desert tracking the sun and directing sunlight to a "focus" in order to heat water (or other fluids). Not solar panels (PV). If the water doesn't boil -- the turbine don't spin... Thus the "supplemental" energy.

There was a Sci-Fi movie with an evil bad guy using one of these to destroy the world.. burger and fries if you name it...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

From what I've seem of solar units they work really well and everyone I know who has one swears by them. Solar doesn't need supplemental energy to produce energy. Something is wrong with your information.

This is different form of solar Steve. It's a field of mirrors in the desert tracking the sun and directing sunlight to a "focus" in order to heat water (or other fluids). Not solar panels (PV). If the water doesn't boil -- the turbine don't spin... Thus the "supplemental" energy.

There was a Sci-Fi movie with an evil bad guy using one of these to destroy the world.. burger and fries if you name it...

A Bond fan. Did you know that it was just on SyFy?

 

[westwall]

From what I've seem of solar units they work really well and everyone I know who has one swears by them. Solar doesn't need supplemental energy to produce energy. Something is wrong with your information.

This is different form of solar Steve. It's a field of mirrors in the desert tracking the sun and directing sunlight to a "focus" in order to heat water (or other fluids). Not solar panels (PV). If the water doesn't boil -- the turbine don't spin... Thus the "supplemental" energy.

There was a Sci-Fi movie with an evil bad guy using one of these to destroy the world.. burger and fries if you name it...

A Bond fan. Did you know that it was just on SyFy?

It was? Damn that's one of the better ones too!