G_d, why kat?

[rtwngAvngr]

Yeah, because you know, the Israeli army is so powerful, right? Oh, that's right I think 300 million Americans, 250 million Russians, 1.2 billion Indians and 1.1 billion Chinese might have something to say about that. And you think Christians and Christianity think they DON'T have all the answers? As for forcing Christianity upon anybody, only the Muslims seem to want to do at a point of sword, but there are Christian missionaries and they ain't selling vouchers to Burger King (well, the could be, but you get the point)....

Israel does have a powerful army, and influence in the world wildly disproportionate to their actual numbers.

There is a vast difference between forcing religion and appealing to hearts and minds to come voluntarily. One is criminal violence, the other is free speech. Leave to a lib to confuse the two.

 

[Nienna]

If I am lucky enough to go to heaven, I will make sure to ask God if he actually gives two shits how his name is written.

Okay.

 

[Nienna]

Or perhaps you have overthought the point.

The central argument...usage of G-d. Nienna's point: the jews are disobeying God's will.

My point: God probably has larger fish to fry, so why don't we let people of different religions spell god in the way they thing is most respectful and we can all be fine & dandy

My point was actually that it is a logical flaw to deface God's name one's self in an effort to avoid others' defacing it. The name was still defaced.

 

[jillian]

My point was actually that it is a logical flaw to deface God's name one's self in an effort to avoid others' defacing it. The name was still defaced.

No. Your point was, actually, one of total disrespect to other beliefs.

Again. The only "name" ever "given" was "I will be what I will be". And, again, Jews were here first, so how did they "deface" anything that you might believe in?

 

[Nienna]

No. Your point was, actually, one of total disrespect to other beliefs.

Again. The only "name" ever "given" was "I will be what I will be". And, again, Jews were here first, so how did they "deface" anything that you might believe in?

I feel no disrespect toward people of other beliefs at all. I honestly was simply pointing out the logical inconsistency and expressing my disappointment that I cannot know the correct pronunciation of my God's name.

If you study Jewish history, you will find a point at which they stopped using God's name and substitued Adonai (often rendered YHVH in our alphabet). This was Jewish history, long before Jesus Christ ever came on the scene.

 

[jillian]

I feel no disrespect toward people of other beliefs at all. I honestly was simply pointing out the logical inconsistency and expressing my disappointment that I cannot know the correct pronunciation of my God's name.

If you study Jewish history, you will find a point at which they stopped using God's name and substitued Adonai (often rendered YHVH in our alphabet). This was Jewish history, long before Jesus Christ ever came on the scene.

I'd ask you to switch words around and place the word "Christians" in your initial post, instead of "Jews". I believe you'd have found it offensive. If you don't acknowledge that you would have, I think you wouldn't be being honest about it.

As for Jewish history, I'd say that my knowledge about it is at least as good as yours, and probably more accurate, since I didn't learn that history from a Christian slant how it is taught.

Just saying.

And again, where in the Old Testament does it ever say Jews "stopped" using the name?

 

[dmp]

And, again, Jews were here first, so how did they "deface" anything that you might believe in?

Baby -

It worked like this -

God said "My name is Yaweh"

Jews thought "In an effort to keep people from defacing His Name, we'll take out all the vowels - we'll spell it wrong!"

See the irony?



:kiss2:

 

[jillian]

Baby -

It worked like this -

God said "My name is Yaweh"

Jews thought "In an effort to keep people from defacing His Name, we'll take out all the vowels - we'll spell it wrong!"

See the irony?



:kiss2:

Where is that quote, dearie? BTW, Hebrew has no vowels, hence it being spelled the way it is, using the Hebrew letters.

See how it works, snookums? Mwah!

 

[Nienna]

I'd ask you to switch words around and place the word "Christians" in your initial post, instead of "Jews". I believe you'd have found it offensive. If you don't acknowledge that you would have, I think you wouldn't be being honest about it.

As per your request, I have reread my initial post, subsituting the word "Christian" for "Jews." I honestly do not find it offensive. The only thing that could be construed that way is the exclamation "What a crock!" which was meant as an exclamation of frustration rather than an insult to the Jewish people.

As for Jewish history, I'd say that my knowledge about it is at least as good as yours, and probably more accurate, since I didn't learn that history from a Christian slant how it is taught.

Just saying.

I do not know what you know about Jewish history; therefore, I have no basis of comparison to my knowledge of Jewish history.

And again, where in the Old Testament does it ever say Jews "stopped" using the name?

The OT would not be a good source for this information. The Hebrew scribes stopped using God's name as they were copying the scripts. Here is one source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

 

[jillian]

As per your request, I have reread my initial post, subsituting the word "Christian" for "Jews." I honestly do not find it offensive. The only thing that could be construed that way is the exclamation "What a crock!" which was meant as an exclamation of frustration rather than an insult to the Jewish people.

I think that's disingenuos. But you've made it clear that you think only your brand of Christianity is the "true" belief. Whie I respect that belief, I don't share it.

I do not know what you know about Jewish history; therefore, I have no basis of comparison to my knowledge of Jewish history.

Take it on "faith" then.

The OT would not be a good source for this information. The Hebrew scribes stopped using God's name as they were copying the scripts. Here is one source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

I appreciate your link, but those are surmises by scholars. If you read further down the page, you will see that it is also opined that there never was a "correct pronunciation".

It was your complete disregard for something that is considered reverential which I found offensive.

 

[dmp]

Where is that quote, dearie? BTW, Hebrew has no vowels, hence it being spelled the way it is, using the Hebrew letters.

See how it works, snookums? Mwah!

Where is WHAT quote? I was giving you an example - broken down all basic-like, cuz I care.

Try this, then, if you're going to get lost in the trees:

God: "My name is (insert name)"
Jews: "dayum...Well, you are holy - since YOU are holy we won't even pronounce your name. When we WRITE your name we'll leave out letters, or change it to keep others from...uh..changing your name."

See, toots?

You love me, don't you. Admit it. It's fine. I'm fine with it. Just know you cannot have me.

 

[jillian]

Oy! :teeth:

 

[Nienna]

I think that's disingenuos. But you've made it clear that you think only your brand of Christianity is the "true" belief. Whie I respect that belief, I don't share it.

Of course I believe that my beliefs are more true than others'. That is why I say I believe them. It's okay that you don't share my beliefs, but I must make the comment that it doesn't seem as if you truly respect mine, since I feel that you are attacking my statements.

Take it on "faith" then.

My faith isn't in you. And, since I am not personally acquainted with you, I don't see how you could have much of a basis of comparison for our knowledge of Jewish history. I do not believe that you know the extent or lack of the knowledge that I possess on this subject.

I appreciate your link, but those are surmises by scholars. If you read further down the page, you will see that it is also opined that there never was a "correct pronunciation".

That is an opinion worth considering. However, the OT texts reference "calling on the name of the LORD (YHVH)" several times. His name must have been known, by sound, if this action was to be performed. Therefore, I believe that there was, at one time, a correct pronunciation of God's name.

It was your complete disregard for something that is considered reverential which I found offensive.

I am very sorry that you were offended. However, I must ask you not to presume to know what was in my heart beyond what I express. I do not think that any of my posts have expressed "complete disregard" for anyone's religious beliefs. Of course, the choice is yours, but I ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt, and, unless I blatantly abuse someone's faith, to assume that I do not intend disrespect.

 

[5stringJeff]

Again. The only "name" ever "given" was "I will be what I will be". And, again, Jews were here first, so how did they "deface" anything that you might believe in?

The name actually means "I Am Who I Am." Slight but real difference. That's why when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I Am!" the Jews tried to stone Him. By saying "I Am," He was (rightly) equating Himself with God.

 

[jillian]

The name actually means "I Am Who I Am." Slight but real difference. That's why when Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I Am!" the Jews tried to stone Him. By saying "I Am," He was (rightly) equating Himself with God.

Actually, that's not correct, I recently learned. There is no first person present tense for the verb "to be" in Hebrew. It would have, correctly, been translated as "I will be what I will be"..... meaning His greatness made form meaningless and He could take whatever form he chose.

 

[manu1959]

Actually, that's not correct, I recently learned. There is no first person present tense for the verb "to be" in Hebrew. It would have, correctly, been translated as "I will be what I will be"..... meaning His greatness made form meaningless and He could take whatever form he chose.

i do not belive the creator is male......no man would go to this much trouble....plus it wouldn't be this imperfect.....only a woman would creat such an irrational illogical subjective mess as this

 

[jillian]

Of course I believe that my beliefs are more true than others'. That is why I say I believe them. It's okay that you don't share my beliefs, but I must make the comment that it doesn't seem as if you truly respect mine, since I feel that you are attacking my statements.

And I believe mine are more true than yours. But I would never presume that you have no entry to heaven or that you are somehow bastardizing *my* faith.

But very typical response from you, trying to turn it around as if Christianity is somehow being wronged. Pretty funny, IMO.

My faith isn't in you. And, since I am not personally acquainted with you, I don't see how you could have much of a basis of comparison for our knowledge of Jewish history. I do not believe that you know the extent or lack of the knowledge that I possess on this subject.

I don't need to know your level of knowledge on the subject because I DO know that whatever you learned about Judaism, you learned from other Christians in the context of the New Testament.

I didn't. Hence my knowledge on the subject being more trustworthy than yours.

That is an opinion worth considering. However, the OT texts reference "calling on the name of the LORD (YHVH)" several times. His name must have been known, by sound, if this action was to be performed. Therefore, I believe that there was, at one time, a correct pronunciation of God's name.

It is fine that *you* believe that. But that isn't what you said. You complained that Jews defaced His name.

[QUOTEI am very sorry that you were offended. However, I must ask you not to presume to know what was in my heart beyond what I express. I do not think that any of my posts have expressed "complete disregard" for anyone's religious beliefs. Of course, the choice is yours, but I ask you to give me the benefit of the doubt, and, unless I blatantly abuse someone's faith, to assume that I do not intend disrespect.[/QUOTE]

I don't have to know what's in your heart. I've read your posts. What I can say is that I don't think you do it maliciously because you don't seem to be a malicious person. But you ARE so very vested in your religion that you have trouble even accepting the possibility that others' beliefs are just as valid. I figure no one knows til we die and no one's come back to tell us.

 

[Annie]

Oh My Gawd! Kathianne is now apart of the NWO.

I know, I'm waiting for my share of the riches!

 

[Nienna]

And I believe mine are more true than yours. But I would never presume that you have no entry to heaven or that you are somehow bastardizing *my* faith.

But very typical response from you, trying to turn it around as if Christianity is somehow being wronged. Pretty funny, IMO.



I don't need to know your level of knowledge on the subject because I DO know that whatever you learned about Judaism, you learned from other Christians in the context of the New Testament.

I didn't. Hence my knowledge on the subject being more trustworthy than yours.



It is fine that *you* believe that. But that isn't what you said. You complained that Jews defaced His name.



I don't have to know what's in your heart. I've read your posts. What I can say is that I don't think you do it maliciously because you don't seem to be a malicious person. But you ARE so very vested in your religion that you have trouble even accepting the possibility that others' beliefs are just as valid. I figure no one knows til we die and no one's come back to tell us.

Wow.

 

[jillian]

I know, I'm waiting for my share of the riches!

lol.... let me know where the pot of gold is, too!